Worship of Maria/ the virgin Mary?

[Albion]

What do you base a belief in the Immaculate Conception upon?

 

[Goatee]

The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.

Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception

 

[Phantasman]

One Scripture off the top of my head - John 2 and John 19

There are many more.

I honestly am surprised as to your perspective. My Evangelical Pentecostal family respects her much more than you seem to respect her. I don't know of any in person that hold your belief.

ETA: Marcion believe and taught that there were two separate Gods. I wouldn't trust him as being an authoritative figure.

I already said that the mother of Jesus appears twice in John only as a person of attendance. No spiritual Gospel truth. You cannot find anything else to discribe her as an important figure. I respect her role, just I respect the roles of many that were used to bring forth Truth. But they are not idols, and are dead.

If you want to believe that God is a liar and murderer, that's your choice. The Gospel message is that God does not judge, and has never slaughtered (killed) any man. A perfect God ( the Father) would not say to not murder, them murder (men) himself. The OT God did. He was jealous, ignorant, puffed up. The first time we ever heard of the Father was through the Son. And only after he was christened by the Father (which made him Christ, first Christened).

Orthodoxy does more harm than good. It is of (physical) thoughts from men who desire mammon as well as God. It is a wide path, easily followed. This is proven by the fruits it has produced.

 

[All4Christ]

I already said that the mother of Jesus appears twice in John only as a person of attendance. No spiritual Gospel truth. You cannot find anything else to discribe her as an important figure. I respect her role, just I respect the roles of many that were used to bring forth Truth. But they are not idols, and are dead.

If you want to believe that God is a liar and murderer, that's your choice. The Gospel message is that God does not judge, and has never slaughtered (killed) any man. A perfect God ( the Father) would not say to not murder, them murder (men) himself. The OT God did. He was jealous, ignorant, puffed up. The first time we ever heard of the Father was through the Son. And only after he was christened by the Father (which made him Christ, first Christened).

Orthodoxy does more harm than good. It is of (physical) thoughts from men who desire mammon as well as God. It is a wide path, easily followed. This is proven by the fruits it has produced.

You didn't specify that you were referencing John there, and based on who post, it implied differently.

I'm honestly not sure if I am following the rest of your post. Could you tell me if my understanding of your viewpoint is accurate? Are you suggesting that the God of the Old Testament is a different God than the God of the New Testament (the Father, Jesus, etc.)?

 

[Phantasman]

The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.

Such is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immaculate Conception

Just because New Advent says it's truth doesn't make it truth.

Christs words are truth. And he never said that.

The disciples said to him, "Your brothers and your mother are standing outside."
He said to them, "Those here who do the will of my father are my brothers and my mother. It is they who will enter the kingdom of my father."- Gospel of Thomas

You believe yours, I'll believe mine.

 

[Phantasman]

You didn't specify that you were referencing John there, and based on who post, it implied differently.

I'm honestly not sure if I am following the rest of your post. Could you tell me if my understanding of your viewpoint is accurate? Are you suggesting that the God of the Old Testament is a different God than the God of the New Testament (the Father, Jesus, etc.)?

I am. But you cannot see it unless you see it.

Marcions Antithesis explains many differences in the OT God and the God Jesus spoke of. It explains the argument made made by Jesus to the Jews in John 8. He says that they had been following the devil. He said that Abraham did not get his knowledge from Heaven. In John 10 he says that "all" that came before him were using what truth angels gave for their own edification.(thieves).

The only benefit of the OT (in the Catholic/Orthodox theology) is to restore the Priests as celestial power and repair the veil. In the NT, the Priests were anti-Jesus and anti-Paul in the Gospel and Pauls 10 letters. They were drunk with authority, not truth.

 

[All4Christ]

I am. But you cannot see it unless you see it.

Marcions Antithesis explains many differences in the OT God and the God Jesus spoke of. It explains the argument made made by Jesus to the Jews in John 8. He says that they had been following the devil. He said that Abraham did not get his knowledge from Heaven. In John 10 he says that "all" that came before him were using what truth angels gave for their own edification.(thieves).

The only benefit of the OT (in the Catholic/Orthodox theology) is to restore the Priests as celestial power and repair the veil. In the NT, the Priests were anti-Jesus and anti-Paul in the Gospel and Pauls 10 letters. They were drunk with authority, not truth.

Ok. This explains a lot of where you are coming from.

I am familiar with Marcion's theology and most of the theological frameworks in the first few hundred years of the Christian church. I don't, however, accept Marcion
or his canon as being authoritative. Without the same foundation and without both holding the current NT canon (as held by Nicene churches or by Marcion or whatever canon you hold), it is diffficult to communicate effectively.

 

[Phantasman]

Ok. This explains a lot of where you are coming from.

I am familiar with Marcion's theology and most of the theological frameworks in the first few hundred years of the Christian church. I don't, however, accept Marcion
or his canon as being authoritative. Without the same foundation and without both holding the current NT canon (as held by Nicene churches or by Marcion or whatever canon you hold), it is diffficult to communicate effectively.

And I agree with your assessment. If you have studied early Christian history, then no doubt you see that Marcions church rivaled the catholic church (small c) in size. And Valentinus split with the new catholic ideology caused him to to rival the new catholic ideology as well. And many churches grew on the 2 God understanding, like churches of Mani and Arius.

The Nicene Creed had no right (from God) to destroy the other religions or books.

In the first century Paul says to the Romans:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

The books (gnosis) never attacked anyone nor did their followers. It was the catholic church fathers that attacked the gnosis they believed.

When Pilate asked Jesus "what is truth?", did Jesus act ignorant? Not answer?

Nicodemus was at the trial as well.

Pilate said unto him: Art thou a king, then? Jesus answered him: Thou sayest that I am a king; for this cause was I born and am come, that every one that is of the truth should hear my voice. Pilate saith unto him: What is truth? Jesus saith unto him: Truth is of heaven. Pilate saith: Is there not truth upon earth? Jesus saith unto Pilate: Thou seest how that they which speak the truth are judged of them that have authority upon earth.- Gospel of Nicodemus (Acts of Pilate)

One see's the image as truth or doesn't. People turn away (Nicodemus) because they are told to.

Authority upon earth is the key. John 18:36

 

[Goatee]

I sometimes wonder if certain documents were left out of the Bible deliberately as they did not favour the church.

 

[All4Christ]

I sometimes wonder if certain documents were left out of the Bible deliberately as they did not favour the church.

There were more than one reason for why certain books were not included. These may be of interest to you:

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Canon of the New Testament

The New Testament Canon

The Orthodoxy of the New Testament Canon by David A. Thommen | Monergism

http://www.churchhistory101.com/docs/New-Testament-Canon.pdf

 

[Phantasman]

Before the Nicene Creed (325AD) there were many churches. When Constantine sent word to 1800 church leaders that he wanted them to appear (room, board and travel provided) to create a "one church under Rome", 300 showed up. These 300 (less the ones who were exiled for disagreement) created the fate of the others.

Once convened, many churches sent their letters of disapproval, and claimed that the (new) church sided with Emperors over Christ. From my viewpoint they did. They bent their knee to Rome.

The Gospel of Peter says it best:
"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."

 

[Goatee]

Before the Nicene Creed (325AD) there were many churches. When Constantine sent word to 1800 church leaders that he wanted them to appear (room, board and travel provided) to create a "one church under Rome", 300 showed up. These 300 (less the ones who were exiled for disagreement) created the fate of the others.

Once convened, many churches sent their letters of disapproval, and claimed that the (new) church sided with Emperors over Christ. From my viewpoint they did. They bent their knee to Rome.

The Gospel of Peter says it best:
"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."

Protestants? Maybe!

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

It's a one track record this forum, it sadly is.
How many times haven't we been through the difference between worship and praying for intersession? I mean, it must've been a hundred something times!

I resign, those who have ears hear. For the rest of you guys I give up.
I can teach for eternity if you're not equipped with a pear of ears.

Kyrie Eleison!

 

[Goatee]

Probably more than a hundred!