Worship of Maria/ the virgin Mary?

[Goatee]

Where does it say she was sin free? Only one was sin free, and I don't think it was her.

Romans:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Wonder where he got the likeness of "sinful flesh"?

How would people have managed in the years before the Bible was put together? Approx 300 years!

How would they have been taught?

 

[All4Christ]

Where does it say she was sin free? Only one was sin free, and I don't think it was her.

Romans:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Wonder where he got the likeness of "sinful flesh"?

Christ came in the likeness of our sinfulness but did not succumb to it. "Likeness of sinful flesh" refers to our flesh being corrupted and given over to all manner of sin, but again, Christ did not succumb and sin Himself. "The likeness of sinful flesh" doesn't mean that our nature is inherently sinful.

FTR - the Immaculate Conception is only needed with the Western view of original sin.

 

[All4Christ]

Lutherans are among those "and maybe others as well", we venerate her as Holy Mary, blessed among women, virgin mother of God, and Theotokos.

-CryptoLutheran

Right. Venerating the Theotokos and calling her the Mother of God is all about Christ. The dogma of her being the Morher of God is a christological statement. All honor to the Theotokos should point back to Christ.

I really like one of Luther's quotes:

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.

(Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)

 

[Phantasman]

How would people have managed in the years before the Bible was put together? Approx 300 years!

How would they have been taught?

Christianity flourished during that time. All were taught the same by the many who heard and understood Christ. And many Christians died, being slaughtered by the Jews and Romans. The catholic ideology fixed that. To be Christian you must accept the OT and side with the (Roman) church. All others were exiled or perished, their books destroyed.

 

[Phantasman]

Right. Venerating the Theotokos and calling her the Mother of God is all about Christ. The dogma of her being the Morher of God is a christological statement. All honor to the Theotokos should point back to Christ.

I really like one of Luther's quotes:

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.

(Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)

I'm sorry friend. I just see no place in the Gospel message from God our Father of Mary's importance. John doesn't even mention her. She followed Jesus as well as six other women.

That's all the credit I give her. I also see Mary Magdalene as a much more important figure.

 

[All4Christ]

I'm sorry friend. I just see no place in the Gospel message from God our Father of Mary's importance. John doesn't even mention her. She followed Jesus as well as six other women.

That's all the credit I give her. I also see Mary Magdalene as a much more important figure.

John doesn't mention Mary? There are multiple references to Mary in John.

 

[Phantasman]

John doesn't mention Mary? There are multiple references to Mary in John.

Show me the reference(s) to the virgin. I see Mary and Martha (sisters) and Mary Magdalene. The words "mother of Jesus" is used twice to say she was present during an event.

Even Mark only mentions her 3 times, as who was present. It is Luke who mentions her the most and the virgin birth, and Marcion even removed that part when he created the first Canon. It wasn't part of the Gospel message because Christ didn't speak it.

 

[All4Christ]

Show me the reference(s) to the virgin. I see Mary and Martha (sisters) and Mary Magdalene. The words "mother of Jesus" is used twice to say she was present during an event.

Even Mark only mentions her 3 times, as who was present. It is Luke who mentions her the most and the virgin birth, and Marcion even removed that part when he created the first Canon. It wasn't part of the Gospel message because Christ didn't speak it.

One Scripture off the top of my head - John 2 and John 19

There are many more.

I honestly am surprised as to your perspective. My Evangelical Pentecostal family respects her much more than you seem to respect her. I don't know of any in person that hold your belief.

ETA: Marcion believe and taught that there were two separate Gods. I wouldn't trust him as being an authoritative figure.

 

[parousia70]

Veneration by an angel? I think not. The angel who spoke to Mary said only that she had found favor in God's sight and was blessed as a consequence. No explanation as to why. No lauding Mary for her uprightness or for some feature of her character or behaviour that set her above all other women. It doesn't look at all to me, then, that the angel venerated Mary. Far from it.

Ok, so when the Angel says "Hail, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women" it's NOT veneration, but when I say it, it is?

 

[All4Christ]

It wasn't part of the Gospel message because Christ didn't speak it.

Also, are you suggesting that there wasn't a virgin birth?

 

[Albion]

Ok, so when the Angel says "Hail, Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou among women" it's NOT veneration, but when I say it, it is?

You're saying much more about the meaning of that verse, aren't you? If you said, "See here. The angel acclaims Mary as one who has been chosen by God for a special purpose" there would probably not be the same reaction as when the verse is held up as "proof" that Mary was the second Ark of the Covenant and was sinless from even before her birth.

 

[All4Christ]

You're saying much more about the meaning of that verse, aren't you? If you said, "See here. The angel acclaims Mary as one who has been chosen by God for a special purpose" there would probably not be the same reaction as when the verse is held up as "proof" that Mary was the second Ark of the Covenant and was sinless from even before her birth.

A clarification (you may know this, but others may not) - not all who venerate the Theotokos consider this Scripture to be the proof of her being the second ark of the covenant or proof of her being sinless.

 

[Albion]

Oh, I think you mean that you and your church venerate her but do not make all those other claims, and that it's quite possible to do so.

Yes, but we know that those who DO make those other claims most often point to this verse and say that it verifies the idea of the Immaculate Conception.

 

[All4Christ]

...

 

[All4Christ]

Oh, I think you mean that you venerate her but do not make those other claims as backing for why it's appropriate, and that it's quite possible to do so.

Yes, but we know that those who DO make those other claims most often point to this verse and say that it verifies the idea of the Immaculate Conception.

Again, not all do that. Orthodox, for example, fully reject the Immaculate Conception. (We have overlap with teachings about the Theotokos but we have differences).

I am not overly familiar with the backing of the Immaculate Conception. Perhaps those who claim that the Immaculate Conception is theologically correct will use that verse to support that belief. Others who consider her to be the second ark, or her being sinless, for example, do not necessarily use that verse for that purpose.

 

[Albion]

Right. I was speaking to the frequency with which the claim about the I.C. and that verse is made. That it's usually made by Roman Catholics of course owes to the greater number of them as compared to other communions.

 

[All4Christ]

Right. I was speaking to the frequency with which the claim about the I.C. and that verse is made. That it's usually made by Roman Catholics of course owes to the greater number of them as compared to other communions.

Ah, ok. Thank you for clarifying.

I know you are more aware than many about other traditions' beliefs about Mary. That said, there are often misconceptions that many Christians have about others' beliefs about Mary.

 

[Goatee]

Mary had to be sinless. God would not put His Son in a anything put a pure vessel.

 

[All4Christ]

Mary had to be sinless. God would not put His Son in a anything put a pure vessel.

Due to our differences in our understanding of original sin, the Immaculate Conception is not necessary in Orthodox Christian beliefs.

I understand what you are saying though.

 

[parousia70]

You're saying much more about the meaning of that verse, aren't you?

More than the Angel? I wouldn't presume so.

If you said, "See here. The angel acclaims Mary as one who has been chosen by God for a special purpose" there would probably not be the same reaction as when the verse is held up as "proof" that Mary was the second Ark of the Covenant and was sinless from even before her birth.

I typically hold up Revelation 12, since that is John's description of the Ark in heaven, and His description is authoritative for me.