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Worried about the new document from Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace..

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by MoNiCa4316, Oct 27, 2011.

  1. Needing_Grace

    Needing_Grace Chief of Sinners

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    Contrary to Ayn Rand's ideology, taxation is not theft.
     
  2. Needing_Grace

    Needing_Grace Chief of Sinners

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    It's simple. People in America have been told over and over on the TeeVee and the Radio that anything less that complete, utter and absolutely unbridled capitalism is the same as total socialism. Thus, to many people the very existence of the government beyond its ability to kill and maim people (police, prisons, military) is evil and must be stopped. That means no laws requiring payment of wages to working people, no laws protecting workers from unsafe and unhealthful working conditions, etc. Workers are expendable and interchangeable units of production, nothing more, nothing less.

    Until you get laid off...then you realize that you're one of those expendable and interchangeable units of production. Lay off enough people who eventually realize the same thing and something starts to happen. American history is replete with example from Bacon's Rebellion to the Revolutionary War to the Civil War to the Square Deal to the New Deal (which was after the Roaring 20s devolved into the Great Depression) to the Great Society...which was all abandoned when Reagan declared it to be Morning in America. We've reached Depression era wealth distribution patterns and we're surprised that people are angry?

    Seriously?

    Honestly, I think the OWS movement is reflecting the critical mass of Americans who are seeing through the screen of what they've been told for so long. The Right is terrified, so they're on overdrive with the "socialism" talk in order to terrify people from listening to their fellows. Frankly, I stopped listening to the Right when I started becoming a Catholic about seven years ago.

    My understanding is that there seems to be at least two universal demands on the part of the Occupy movement. They are to remove corporate funding of campaign elections and a law overturning the Citizens United decision. There is NOTHING socialist in either proposal.

    The proposals are VERY small 'd' democratic, though.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2011
  3. Colin

    Colin Senior Veteran

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    " The bread that you store up belongs to the hungry . The cloak that lies in your chest belongs to the naked . The gold that you have hidden in the ground belongs to the poor . " ( Basil the Great ) .

    " The rich are in possession of the goods of the poor . Not to enable the poor to share in our goods is to steal from them and deprive them of life . The goods we possess are not ours but theirs . " ( John Chrysostom ) .

    " Those who wish to make room for the Lord must find pleasure not in private , but in common property . " (Augustine) .
     
  4. Gwendolyn

    Gwendolyn back in black

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    I think it's hilarious how afraid of socialism people on this board are.

    They complain about healthcare, arguing that they shouldn't have to pay taxes to help the poor... but then they support fire departments, police departments, and other "socialist" things.

    I'll never understand why govt-funded healthcare for everyone is so "evil" for people here. Govt-funded healthcare saved my life, and I am happy to pay taxes so that govt-funded healthcare can save the lives of others. Doesn't make me evil or a bad Catholic, because it is nowhere near "pure" socialism, which is what the Church opposes.
     
  5. AMDG

    AMDG Tenderized for Christ

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    Don't care about Ayn Rand, but when I was teaching children, the definition of stealing was "taking another person's property." In this case, someone is advocating taking someone else's property and giving it to someone else. If that "someone else" happens to be a friend--that's Cronyism. It's something Obama has been guilty of. BTW Cronyism is why our economy is in such bad shape because the "friends" always want more and more.
     
  6. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    Does it bother you that many of these posters would rather have let you suffer and die than to see the United States adopt a sensible, humane policy that exists in every other industrialized nation in the world?

    It would bother me.
     
  7. BabyChristian22

    BabyChristian22 Newbie

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    Economics is related to morals in an indirect and very general way such as the command to be charitable to the poor. But the Church is not in a position to offer a specific financial plan for improvement of a government's economy.
     
  8. AMDG

    AMDG Tenderized for Christ

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    Of course, maybe it's just that a number of the people on this board don't belong to the Socialist Party and do not believe in the system of Socialism. Maybe they see the truth and agree with Margaret Thatcher, "the problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money."
     
  9. underheaven

    underheaven Well-Known Member

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    It is true that it is very difficult to be super rich without a bit of skullduggery,lies, manipulative politics,and down right abuse of the environment,war even. [occasionallly artists,tecnology etc]..... But jealousy is very much part of the 'socialist ' mind set ,and one does not need to have very much, to trigger it off in that type of personality.
    Socialism does not sit well with freedom of thought and speech,and ingenuity , so I oppose it ...A mixed system is best.:idea:
     
  10. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    What difference is it with pure or impure?
    Where did the distinction come from?

    Socialism is ok, so long as it isnt pure?
    Did the Popes say that? No, they said socialism is evil of itself and none gave us the distinctions of catagorical types.

    Taking from the rich and giving to the poor is theft of the rich, and making the poor more poor in spirit if they have no desire to help themselves.

    Sure the gift of blessings [for hard work] could be shared. Showing others to persevere and work. Not to be punished.
    And let me tell you, i am the furthest thing from being rich. I will never be rich, and i dont envy them their lot.

    I was raised poor and havent really succeeded beyond pay check to pay check.
    BUT i have a very balanced understanding that this country needs the rich - and we also - middle class - need to continue to educate others and reward success who can and will share their successes through EMPLOYMENT of those in need.

    Hand outs are good - but not needing the hand outs is better.

    AND unless someone is doing it from their heart - it has no benefit for them. Period.

    No amount of taxation will benefit the soul.

    Forced higher taxes - will trickle down to the middle class, who again suffers the most.
    The current healthcare system has already messed up healthcare overall and it hasnt even started yet.
     
  11. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    FWIW - look in the newspaper and see how many LPN jobs there are.
    You wont find them.

    LPN's are being phased out to give NA's the jobs who get paid a lot less, and RN's get the medical side of the menial med tasks of LPN's - being given more a work load and no pay increases.

    Doctors are already leaving the industry. This has another side effect...less incentive or money for research for the variety of illnesses everyone wants cured.
     
  12. Colin

    Colin Senior Veteran

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    Healthcare is actually a Pro-Life issue .

    It amazes me how some can claim to be Pro-Life and at the same time go bonkers when a government legislates for health services to be put in place to aid the sick and dying .

    If the private sector is not providing Pro-Life services to give basic rights to the sick and dying , it is the duty of government to intervene and ensure that there is provision for these rights to be respected .

    Call it Socialism if need be , but its obvious that this form of Socialism is moral and necessary .
     
  13. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    And you do not think that rich people who exploit their workers--paying substandard wages, for example, or charging much more for their services than they need, even if they know that their customers (or patients) are struggling--are also "thieves?"

    Is not a corporation that pollutes the environment and poisons the drinking water of a whole town stealing the health of the town's residents?

    Is not a hedge fund that buys a company and sells the pieces off to other companies to make a quick profit, depriving thousands of employees of jobs, also stealing?

    Exploitation is also theft.

    You're welcome.
     
  14. underheaven

    underheaven Well-Known Member

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    The problem in the West is that if you are rich you have political clout
    to influence how the society is run,which means you often make unfair decisions
    against those who are not as greedy for power or money as you are ,but may have
    more real talent, which will never 'see' the light of day.
    It is quite clear that RUBBISH culture makes lots of money,so people who make MONEY are
    often RUBBISH people,who then make a RUBBISH society .In the past this was not the
    case,but capitalism now has NO CONCIENCE .
    It would do the rich well to remember '' A rich man cannot enter the kingdom of heaven ''
    says Jesus, who is after all our last WORD on everything .:D:crossrc:
     
  15. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    :thumbsup:
    And it runs out faster if everyone wants a hand out and less have the encouragement to be the ones to produce jobs.
    Our country has a minimum wage.
    Workers have options to increase their own net value by seeking an education.
    There are no substandard wages.

    You wouldnt pay a toilet cleaner $70 an hour.
    You would pay a key employee who increases the value of the company and increases employment overall.

    Wages are according to what effort someone puts into getting the better paying position.

    The Church stands behind all getting the wages that are just - and those who increase their worth [wages] was thru effort and education OR loyalty thru years of experience.

    I dont know where you get the idea there is anything substandard.
    Everyone has the ability to increase their lot in life thru hard work.
    Not envying those who have.
    Pollution is another topic. AND Not all companies or businesses do that. OR no one could drink in this country.

    The question would be, why do they need to sell off?
    Are they not doing well? And in that case, jobs will be lost anyway.

    Most companies sell when profits fall. Profits fall when the economy has been destroyed.

    AS the Church says, the government has [one] role in social teaching - to keep the economy stable.
     
  16. Colin

    Colin Senior Veteran

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    Socialism used to be equated more or less with Marxism . But the Socialism advocated by the Social Democratic parties is based on freedom and democracy , and is pursued by the democratic process , accepting a mixed economy .

    The Labour Party in the UK is no longer Socialist unfortunately , but , when it was , its outlook was formed more by the Gospel values than those of Marx .
     
  17. Fantine

    Fantine Dona Quixote Supporter

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    Let's take three taxpayers (all married filing jointly.)

    Taxpayer A works at a factory and earns $40K a year. His marginal tax rate is 15%.

    Taxpayer B works as a pharmacist and earns $100K a year. His marginal tax rate is also 15% on that first $40K of taxable income.

    Taxpayer C is the CEO of a big business. His salary is $700K a year. His marginal tax rate is also 15% on that first $40K of taxable income.

    And that is what makes the progressive tax system "fair." When you cross over into a higher bracket, you still pay lower bracket taxes on all the income up to that threshold. You pay the same percentage that Joe the Plumber does, even if your income is higher.

    Another little known fact, which I learned from brilliant economist Robert Reich, is that during the 1950's and 1960's when tax rates on the rich were much higher, the rich still prospered and their incomes grew. The healthy middle class kept demand strong, and that grew their businesses.

    A diminishing middle class, as we have today, will eventually hurt their income (of course they have no one to blame but themselves...)

    And the great depression of 1929 and the great recession of 2008 both occurred when the wealthiest 1% of Americans held 23% or more of the wealth.....and so you see the selfishness and greed that makes them want to hold on to every last penny is actually hurting them more than a sensible, moderately progressive tax policy would.
     
  18. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    Evil never shows itself as bad. That would defeat its purpose.

    Pope Leo Xlll
    [the same who saw a vision and created the prayer to St Michael the ArchAngel.]

    Pope Leo XIII 28 December 1878 On Socialism

    We pointed out also the most effectual remedies by which society might be restored and might escape from the very serious dangers which threaten it. But the evils which We then deplored have so rapidly increased that We are again compelled to address you, as though we heard the voice of the prophet ringing in Our ears: "Cry, cease not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet."1 You understand, venerable brethren, that We speak of that sect of men who, under various and almost barbarous names, are called socialists, communists, or nihilists, and who, spread over all the world, and bound together by the closest ties in a wicked confederacy, no longer seek the shelter of secret meetings, but, openly and boldly marching forth in the light of day, strive to bring to a head what they have long been planning—the overthrow of all civil society whatsoever. Surely these are they who, as the sacred Scriptures testify, "Defile the flesh, despise dominion and blaspheme majesty."2 They leave nothing untouched or whole which by both human and divine laws has been wisely decreed for the health and beauty of life. They refuse obedience to the higher powers, to whom, according to the admonition of the Apostle, every soul ought to be subject, and who derive the right of governing from God; and they proclaim the absolute equality of all men in rights and duties. They debase the natural union of man and woman, which is held sacred even among barbarous peoples; and its bond, by which the family is chiefly held together, they weaken, or even deliver up to lust. Lured, in fine, by the greed of present goods, which is "the root of all evils which some coveting have erred from the faith,"3 they assail the right
    of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wic
    kedness, while and they seem desirous of caring for the needs satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one's mode of life. These are the startling theories they utter in their meetings, set forth in their pamphlets, and scatter abroad in a cloud of journals and tracts. Wherefore, the revered majesty and power of kings has won such fierce hatred from their seditious people that disloyal traitors, impatient of all restraint, have more than once within a short period raised their arms in impious attempt against the lives of their own sovereigns.

    2. But the boldness of these bad men, which day by day more and more threatens civil society with destruction, and strikes the souls of all with anxiety and fear, finds its cause and origin in those poisonous doctrines which, spread abroad in former times among the people, like evil seed bore in due time such fatal fruit. For you know, venerable brethren, that that most deadly war which from the sixteenth century down has been waged by innovators against the Catholic faith, and which has grown in intensity up to today, had for its object to subvert all revelation, and overthrow the supernatural order, that thus the way might be opened for the discoveries, or rather the hallucinations, of reason alone. This kind of error, which falsely usurps to itself the name of reason, as it lures and whets the natural appetite that is in man of excelling, and gives loose rein to unlawful desires of every kind, has easily penetrated not only the minds of a great multitude of men but to a wide extent civil society, also. Hence, by a new species of impiety, unheard of even among the heathen nations, states have been constituted without any count at all of God ....
     
  19. AMDG

    AMDG Tenderized for Christ

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    Actually, that's not *quite* what He said. However He *did* say that only those who do the will of His father will enter the kingdom of heaven. So, what is God's will. He was pretty clear on that--the Ten Commandments, one of which is "Thou Shalt Not Steal".

    So what then? Are we off the hook in "loving our neighbor"? Nope. Not so fast. There's the Catholic Church (Jesus' Church) and she teaches the Spritual and Corporal Works of Mercy.
    The corporal works of mercy are:
    1) feeding the hungry--note that it doesn't say "take money from someone else and let them feed the hungry (or whoever they want")--God insists that it is personal
    2) giving drink to the thirsty--note that it doesn't say "take money from someone else and let another give drink to the thirsty (or whoever they want)"--God is a personal God and wants his people to care for one another
    3) sheltering the homeless--again it doesn't say give money to someone else and let him decide who to give shelter to
    4) clothing the naked--nope, not a word about letting someone else do it for whomever
    5) visiting the sick--not anything about someone else doing what we need to be doing
    6) visiting the imprisoned--a personal thing again
    7) burying the dead--personal action required again

    There are 7 spiritual works of mercy too, but in them too we can't "shirk" our responsibilities off on someone else by paying them to do it for us (or by letting them take whatever they want and redistribute things how they like. God expects us not to be callous--and simply paying another to do what we must is the height of being callous (even if the person actually redistributes what we've earned correctly--and all to often they just give it to friends or as bribes) leads to that.

    God expects that we are to be charitable. Charity is not taxes. They are two different things. One gives rise to Cronyism, which is bad, and the other gives rise to actually caring for one another.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2011
  20. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    Jesus didnt say a rich man couldnt enter Heaven.
    He in fact said, it is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle [entrance to the city] than for a rich man to enter.

    Its not impossible.

    Also, when Jesus said 'poor' in spirit He was referring to the rich being poor - in spirit - for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.
     
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