Worried about the new document from Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace..

[S.ilvio]

And people with the "I need, I want, I gotta have" whether or not they can afford it bear no responsibility?

Again.

Welfare funding did not cause the economic breakdowns...

 

[Davidnic]

Again.

Welfare funding did not cause the economic breakdowns...

Well to be fair, the model of killing our children and having less people to pay to support those in need and the aged is not a good model and that exists in Europe and America. False overpopulation hysteria while creating an inverse pyramid population model is bad news. The documentaries Demographic Winter and Demographic Bomb address it excellently. So that is another factor.

And in some countries the tax burden of a welfare state without great amounts of private donations has it's own problems. I admire the nobility of it more than the corporate greed system that is in other places...but inefficient and greedy governments can be just as bad.

There are many solutions...I always favor a balanced approach where people have the means and the Govt handles huge issues. As long as the core value is human dignity I am all for it.

 

[WarriorAngel]

ACTS IF CHARITY for the poor are a good way to start living the Church's social teaching. PERSONAL CONTACT with those who need our help fulfills CHRIST'S COMMAND to love the poor most effectively. But we are called to heal not only the SYMPTOMS OF POVERTY and injustice BUT ALSO their causes. This requires participation in political and social processes to CORRECT unjust laws and structures of injustice.
Page 423 - 424
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MY WORDS:

AND according to Popes - socialism is an injustice and an evil that further breaks the solidarity of humanity and divides the poor and the rich into classes that break up the community.

To steal off one man to distribute their wealth is theft.
That individual must give in charity.

Socialism is thievery. It demands man be punished for their own efforts and success. The rich should extend jobs and salaries that are just.
BUT when we desire to punish them - take from them - then we are no better than a thief who covets their goods.

Human dignity includes the right to private property and money.

The Church teaches we HELP those in need to work.
Hand outs do nothing for the individual dignity. BUT a good's day work does.

Notice how it says we dont take care of the symptoms - that is the poverty itself. BUT the causes.

To ensure all have equality to work. That all have a good work environment.
ETC

That is how we help politically.
We do not demand others make more payments and that ppl sit at home taking - no rather - we must help them work.

 

[S.ilvio]

Whats with the word Socialism being bandied about at every turn. Do you get more blessings if you post it in every post..?

A humane and properly funded Social Welfare system is essential in a civilised country. If you want to hide behind the 'Socialist' curtain to avoid paying your fair share towards its keep then that doesn't put you in good light in my humble opinion...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Welfare - has caused a lot of immorality.

Scriptures says:
No man eats unless he earns it.
Fornication is a grave sin.
Coveting is against the Decalogue.
Sloth is immoral.


What we have gained thru the system of welfare is women not getting married and having children while living in sin.
Men who dont want to work to feed their own, rather let the woman bear children out of wedlock while living as tho married and let the woman get money from the system.
Taking the worry off the man in being responsible for his own.

Coveting the rich and sitting back to extract money from them in ways of the system rather than seeking any job to ensure their children are raised in a moral household of their parents being married.

AND if we are truly honest - we all know the vast majority of the 46% needing hand outs - only 10% are more likely to have true need.

Welfare was meant to help a FAMILY get back on their feet, not become a career.

Unfortunately welfare has led to sloth, fornication, and immoral raising of children. The mindset is 'dont get married' its easier to receive a check each month while living with a man who makes money on his own.

OF all the ppl i knew who were on welfare i can honestly say - only one needed it while going to school and making her own way and getting off the system even with 3 children not of the same father.
That and my own parents needing it temporarily while my dad was out of work for 6 mo's.

Social doctrine and teaching of the Church doesnt condone these sins, but rather addresses the need for each family to be able to work and in a safe environment and without any individual being cheated for being weak.
EXAMPLE: Joe Smoe has an IQ of 90 and he is taken advantage of because he doesnt make the minimum wage as everyone else and is not intellectual enough to realize it.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Whats with the word Socialism being bandied about at every turn. Do you get more blessings if you post it in every post..?

A humane and properly funded Social Welfare system is essential in a civilised country. If you want to hide behind the 'Socialist' curtain to avoid paying your fair share towards its keep then that doesn't put you in good light in my humble opinion...

Socialism means taking from the rich thru taxation and distributing it to the poor.
Spreading the wealth - is the coined term.

Punishing the rich and making them pay for the poor without - helping the poor rather to seek and find work to enable them to ensure an income for their families needs.

The whole health care system is based on taking from one core group to ensure all have their money to have the same terms.
IT undermines the dignity of a worker finding work to do these things on their own.

It will eventually hurt the middle class the most.

All should be given work... thats the truest and purest form of what Christ wanted.
OR Paul was wrong for saying no man eats the bread of another man's work...?

 

[S.ilvio]

Socialism means taking from the rich thru taxation and distributing it to the poor.
Spreading the wealth - is the coined term.

Punishing the rich and making them pay for the poor without - helping the poor rather to seek and find work to enable them to ensure an income for their families needs.

The whole health care system is based on taking from one core group to ensure all have their money to have the same terms.
IT undermines the dignity of a worker finding work to do these things on their own.

It will eventually hurt the middle class the most.

All should be given work... thats the truest and purest form of what Christ wanted.
OR Paul was wrong for saying no man eats the bread of another man's work...?

Wealth re-distribution should be at the essenceof our existance as Christians.

An elite 'owning' vast resources that could be used to do such good works for the masses is abhorrant. To defend it is anthema to me as a Catholic with Social Justice at my core, or Catholic Socialist for short...

 

[WarriorAngel]

Wealth re-distribution should be at the essenceof our existance as Christians.

An elite 'owning' vast resources that could be used to do such good works for the masses is abhorrant. To defend it is anthema to me as a Catholic with Social Justice at my core, or Catholic Socialist for short...

You didnt read anything i posted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church for adults.

The rich - that is the individual - has the task to share only in offering a job to those in need through just wages.

Every human, even the rich, has human dignity and are allowed to have private property and money.

Go back and read what i copied from the book i have for the Catholic Lay ministry classes.

You have it distorted. Their greed is called by the Church for them to end by sharing their wealth by helping others work. TO GO TO THE POOR and meet them and help them.

We were taught that we do not give a fish to someone hungry - but we help them to fish so they eat the rest of their life.

 

[isshinwhat]

My apologies for jumping down your throat . I was going off the wording of Pope Paul's Encyclical Humanae Vitae where he refers to it as a "Study Commission" . This Study Commission was , as you say , a Pontifical Commission .

I had never seen the commission referred to as Pontifical .

I apologise again for not doing my research well enough , and for wrongly criticising your comments .

No worries. Thank you for your kindness.

 

[AMDG]

From The American Heritage Dictionary, socialism is "1. a social system in which the producers posssess both political power and the means of producing and distributing goods. 2. The theory or practice of those who support such a social system. 3. In Marxist-Leninist theory, the building, under the dictatorship of the proletariat, of the material base for communism."

Think it's actually the name of a political party too--an American political party growing out of an earlier Socialist Labor Party. You know, like Dem., Repub., Libertarian, Independent, Conservative, etc.

I don't know how Newsweek magazine used the term on it's cover in February, 2009--"We Are All Socialists Now". I think when Newt Gingrich was asked (in one of the debates) whether he thought Obama was socialist, he said very matter-of-factly, "Of course he is", he might have been referring to the 3rd definition because Obama said something about gravitating to Marxist friends, but maybe it was the first definition due to Obama's admission during the 2008 campaign of wanting to "redistribute the wealth".

Bet it's hard for those "across the pond" to truly understand what's going on in America.

 

[S.ilvio]

You didnt read anything i posted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church for adults.

The rich - that is the individual - has the task to share only in offering a job to those in need through just wages.

Every human, even the rich, has human dignity and are allowed to have private property and money.

Go back and read what i copied from the book i have for the Catholic Lay ministry classes.

You have it distorted. Their greed is called by the Church for them to end by sharing their wealth by helping others work. TO GO TO THE POOR and meet them and help them.

We were taught that we do not give a fish to someone hungry - but we help them to fish so they eat the rest of their life.

For a fair and effective wealth re-distribution you have to have State sanction as you simply cannot rely on the rich person to give willingly...

 

[AMDG]

For a fair and effective wealth re-distribution you have to have State sanction as you simply cannot rely on the rich person to give willingly...

Please tell me that you are not advocating the breaking of the Commandment "Thou Shalt Not Steal".

 

[Davidnic]

For a fair and effective wealth re-distribution you have to have State sanction as you simply cannot rely on the rich person to give willingly...

You also can not take it from them, when they earned in honestly, in the name of "fair share"

There is a fine line that gets crossed in both directions. Inheritance Tax and other issues are brutal to some people.

I favor tax incentives and breaks for job creation and charitable contribution.

Also I find the government to be far to inefficient a steward of our money. And as a Republic we have a say in how it is handled. But increasingly that say is being removed.

 

[Colin]

" Private property is the fruit of iniquity . The use of all things that are found in this world ought to be common to all men . " ( Clement of Alexandria ) .

It is because of such teaching of the Early Church Fathers based on the practice of the Early Church which was based on the teachings of Jesus that I am a Christian Socialist .

 

[Colin]

" Confronted with the abuse of economic power , with the cruelty of capitaism that degrades man into merchandise , we have begun to see more clearly the dangers of wealth and we understand in a new way what Jesus intended in warning us about wealth . " ( Pope Benedict in " Jesus of Nazareth " , 2003 )

 

[WarriorAngel]

For a fair and effective wealth re-distribution you have to have State sanction as you simply cannot rely on the rich person to give willingly...

You also can not take it from them, when they earned in honestly, in the name of "fair share"

There is a fine line that gets crossed in both directions. Inheritance Tax and other issues are brutal to some people.

I favor tax incentives and breaks for job creation and charitable contribution.

Also I find the government to be far to inefficient a steward of our money. And as a Republic we have a say in how it is handled. But increasingly that say is being removed.

Its really weird i was inspired to suggest so similar to this... but i think one step forward and we may have it.

Wanna run for Prez?

I think the government should give more tax incentives for companies to open more businesses in the poorer areas.
I also think the more incentive, the more job creation.

Like for example; if company X would open a business in area Z they will give a tax break of say 1% - and each business opened will be 1% incentive.

AND they would have to hire a group of researchers [more jobs] on what would benefit the poorer communities.
Perhaps products that are less expensive for that community.
Open factories for jobs at decent wages, and offer a less expensive product for that community.

Example: Bicycle manufacturing for bikes that cost less - while giving job creation.

ALL humans like positive reinforcement - and for the rich more incentives - less taxes - could lead to more jobs.
IN fact, the taxes they pay out will inevitably lead to more state taxes increase because more consumer tax paid, more income tax from ppl working rather than not.
Increase income for the rich, but at the same time, they pay more in taxes. But it works out.

Meantime - increasing the nations income so we can share with other countries. Furthermore, i think the wealthy should be teaching other countries how to produce, if they are willing to be a republic and not a socialized, under the thumb country. [including communism]

These are the things that could create true human dignity world wide.

 

[Colin]

" Capitalism must not be considered as the only valid model of economic organisation . " ( Pope John Paul II , Encyclical Centessimus Annus ) .

 

[Colin]

" It must be borne in mind that grave imbalances are produced when economic action , conceived merely as an engine for wealth creation , is detached from political action conceived as a means for pursuing justice through distribution . " ( Pope Benedict , Encyclical Caritas in Veritate , 2009 ) .

 

[AMDG]

Read
Pius XI, Quadragesimo Anno (15/05/1931)
lately?

This encyclical describes socialism as an error. And it further states that one can't be a socialist and Catholic at the same time. (Think it's in #120)

 

[Needing_Grace]

If it's not about faith and morals, we can read it, but we don't have to accept it with our faith.

Economics falls within the realm of morals. Sorry. No escaping that way.