Worried about the new document from Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace..

[underheaven]

It's amazing that so many Catholics will whole hardheartedly agree when it comes to condemning Gays and woman who have children out of wedlock, but dare to mention "Social Justice" and boy they spin faster than a convention of lawyers.

A message to the Rad Trad's. 1. I grew up with the Latin Mass, most hated it and complained that they couldn't understand it. 2. Unless you are deaf, dumb and blind, then you could not have read the prominent church documents and not understood the fact, that the church supports "Social Justice"

The church unequivocally supports a social doctrine. Call it Distributionism or whatever you like, but it certainly is NOT unbridled capitalism.

And furthermore, Jesus had a special place in his heart for the poor and downtrodden.

It annoys me when people only see the side they want to 'see'. 'Socialism
is evil they say' on one side.....'Capitalism is evil ',says the other side. It is like Blaming the
Car for killing someone. It is not the system that is evil ,but human ignorance ,indifference,self deceit,
shortsightedness intellectual laziness,DEPENDENCE on Systems that is evil.Either system
will work reasonably well for a while,but some become Loyal to one or other system, according
to how much it benefits them as individuals,and then they take sides ,create WARS to proliferate
their way of life.
Until humanity steps back from 'loyalties to the world' instead of to Jesus,this negative, one side
or the other will continue .
I am personally wary of interference in politics of any kind by the Vatican ,it has never worked in
the past, as it inevitably choses one side or other,and causes long after bitterness on both
sides....As individuals we can get involved as we are close to particular 'problems' and should
be involved,but any kind of 'global' policy from a distance is dangerous in a civil society,no
matter where it comes from. Seperation of church and state was Jesus' Law,and it should be ours.

 

[Colin]

Thank God we have a compassionate Welfare system in Ireland and without it we'd have been on the streets when I was a child. So I will forever defend Social Welfare til my dying day...

And three cheers for the National Health Service and the Welfare State in the UK . And being man-made they are not perfect , but they are preferable to the stuff I read about in the USA .

 

[S.ilvio]

And three cheers for the National Health Service and the Welfare State in the UK . And being man-made they are not perfect , but they are preferable to the stuff I read about in the USA .

The British National Health Service is probably the greatest, successful experiment in Social Justice known to Mankind... You should be very proud of it...

 

[S.ilvio]

Dp...

 

[Anhelyna]

Agreed there /\ /\

When my husband was dying of AML , I was hearing of folk in the US who were still paying bills for their loved ones unsuccessful treatment some months after their death . Drugs were obtained from the USA for my husband in an attempt to get him into remission - I dread to think of the cost , certainly our life savings would have been wiped out and I would have started my life again in debt.

As Rawson states - our systems are man made and are not perfect - but by heck the safety net is there when we need it.

 

[Assisi]

Have you ever had to be on welfare? I had to as soon as I turned 18 because I lived in California where 10 people can compete over a diswasher job. Being on welfare was a very demoralizing experience. They made me do a lot of meaningless work, pulling weeds in the hot summer in a field in the middle of nowhere and digging there for no reason. It felt like slavery. I worked like a dog, didn't have enough money to eat and had to pay them the money back. Thank God that I found a way to escape it before it drove me crazy. But even when I had a job no matter how long I paid on the debt it seemed to never go down. They would keep telling me that the previous amount that they said I owed wasn't the correct amount and that I actually owed them more.

That sounds awful! It doesn't really sound like welfare tbh.

 

[underheaven]

My oh my the American Right Wingers are on allout assault mode on the Vatican on this one.

The common sense, compassionate economic policy has really touched a nerve in the Ultra's circles...

Are we not a little self righteous in thinking we are morally superior ?

One thing I have learned is, that it is individual goodness or badness that counts,and you find
both in 'right' and 'left', whatever that is supposed to mean. I would have supported for
example huge social change in Russia in 1917 because of the downright vileness of a
totally cruel totalitarian 'divine right of kings' style society,where human beings were
treated, like we would never ever, treat dogs .......where people were starving to death ,
while their 'masters' lived in luxury,and there was no democratic
means to give people power. After some years,the totalitarian regime was simply reversed
and instead of totalitarian 'royal masters',they had 'communist ones'. No global powers
are always dangerous...Only local
organisation can be accountable.,and it then works within a greater whole for power
except from God is always corruptible.

 

[underheaven]

The British National Health Service is probably the greatest, successful experiment in Social Justice known to Mankind... You should be very proud of it...

It is excellent indeed ,but do we know enough about ancient other societies ? And, the French system,
may even be better !

; and maybe, I have to confess to being ignorant of American systems......The
NHS is however ,to be reduced a bit, as there are not
enough taxes to pay for the very high level of many years past.

 

[S.ilvio]

Are we not a little self righteous in thinking we are morally superior ?

I have no qualms in saying the far Right, American Libertatiran Economic model cheerlead by the like of Ron Paul is barbaric and inhumane. Survival of the richest is at its core and yes, I view European style Social Welfare to be morally superior...

However there are 'old style' conservatives in America who aren't so hardline and see the benefits of humane Social Justice measures for citizens who require them...

 

[underheaven]

Thank God we have a compassionate Welfare system in Ireland and without it we'd have been on the streets when I was a child. So I will forever defend Social Welfare til my dying day...

An emotional response,fine.Yes there should be a safety net,...and especially after any group of people have experienced special hardships.
However, it has to be paid for,and can become for some who work hard and pay taxes,as much a a crime made against them ,when the system is abused ,and people become socially irresponsible. No system lasts forever
on this planet.

 

[Fantine]

A few things to remember - when the Church speaks to us to share our goods, it refers solely to the individuals. The Church doesnt make demands on the government FORCEFULLY taking from one class and handing it to another - as tho that will ever work.
It only makes more ppl less eager to work if its easier to get the freebie's.

In a democracy everyone has a vote and laws are enacted by those elected representatives. Tax laws are included in that equation.

BTW, do you know that the tax rates are organized so that everyone pays the lowest percentage on the first bracket of their income? On that amount, Warren Buffett pays the same percentage as the person who serves him coffee at Starbucks.

But of course we know that because of their power to lobby and advertise politically, made even more available by the misguided Supreme Court decision, the votes of the wealthy count more heavily.

Secondly, socialism hasnt worked, at all. The Popes - i think 3 maybe only 2 but i am almost certain 3 said socialism is evil.

And that's why we don't live in a socialistic society. The misconception that our society is "socialistic" exists only in the fevered imaginations of political paranoiacs.
WE - the individuals should not be relying on governments - that doesnt help us be charitable - its taking the good works we ought be doing and handing it over to an entity [gov] who doesnt care...

We tried private charity alone for 6,000 years. It didn't work--at all.

Government tries to help through private charities in many ways. Tax deductibility of contributions to churches and charities means that government subsidizes those donations. Grants to non-profit organizations, etc.

It is unfortunate that private charity was so woefully, completely, and totally NOT up to the task for six thousand years of world history, and that now government has succeeded in alleviating poverty to a greater extent--although not perfectly.

The idea that it is better to go back to the good old days when nine year olds labored in sweatshops is insane.

 

[S.ilvio]

An emotional response,fine.Yes there should be a safety net,...and especially after any group of people have experienced special hardships.
However, it has to be paid for,and can become for some who work hard and pay taxes,as much a a crime made against them ,when the system is abused ,and people become socially irresponsible. No system lasts forever
on this planet.

The only way to fund a properly functioning and humane Welfare system is through a mixture of personal income and Corporation taxes as practiced in all EU countries.

 

[Davidnic]

We tried private charity alone for 6,000 years. It didn't work--at all.

Government tries to help through private charities in many ways. Tax deductibility of contributions to churches and charities means that government subsidizes those donations. Grants to non-profit organizations, etc.

It is unfortunate that private charity was so woefully, completely, and totally NOT up to the task for six thousand years of world history, and that now government has succeeded in alleviating poverty to a greater extent--although not perfectly.

The idea that it is better to go back to the good old days when nine year olds labored in sweatshops is insane.

Private Charity was up to the task as long as the government or corporations (and in history it has always been one or the other) did not remove the means of providing for themselves and others from the people...either by taking it totally for the state like in many monarchy or socialist models or in investing it too narrowly in corporations and private companies as in monopoly capitalism.

Charity on behalf of a massive state edifice has also failed repeatedly.

Private generosity has not...when people have it to give. The key is finding a manner when people have it to give and the state can handle the massive issues like health, war, helping sustain agriculture and other things smaller groups of people can not.

But when government starts taking the means of production or regulating them too strongly or too lightly it produces problems. People need to be given the means to provide for themselves, help others and have the aid of government in large issues but the government can not overstep.

It is a balance. But to say private charity did not work for 6,000 years is wrong when you look at history. It is the best foundation as long as government or corporate greed does not take the ability to give away from the people by taking or interfering with their means to do so.

 

[AMDG]

The only way to fund a properly functioning and humane Welfare system is through a mixture of personal income and Corporation taxes as practiced in all EU countries.

Somehow the fact that economies of the these countries are failing miserably (and other countries with a good work ethics have to bail out the "slackers", and there is violent rioting from young folks when their country is forced to try to put austerity measures in place to stop the bleeding) doesn't quite make your systems sound so wonderful.

 

[FullyMT]

Somehow the fact that economies of the these countries are failing miserably (and other countries with a good work ethics have to bail out the "slackers", and there is violent rioting from young folks when their country is forced to try to put austerity measures in place to stop the bleeding) doesn't quite make your systems sound so wonderful.

And ours isn't?

 

[Davidnic]

No current model is working very well

 

[FullyMT]

No current model is working very well

Indeed.

 

[S.ilvio]

Somehow the fact that economies of the these countries are failing miserably (and other countries with a good work ethics have to bail out the "slackers", and there is violent rioting from young folks when their country is forced to try to put austerity measures in place to stop the bleeding) doesn't quite make your systems sound so wonderful.

Funding Welfare is not the cause of the economic breakdown. It was private speculators who gambled of markets failing and private banks who didn't keep to rules regulators laid down on amounts of money that could be borrowed.

 

[AMDG]

Funding Welfare is not the cause of the economic breakdown. It was private speculators who gambled of markets failing and private banks who didn't keep to rules regulators laid down on amounts of money that could be borrowed.

And people with the "I need, I want, I gotta have" whether or not they can afford it bear no responsibility?

 

[WarriorAngel]

I struggle to see how you read all the Catholic social encyclicals and other documents and then say that.

Social teachings are not going to be hypocritical from the rest.

US Catholic Catechism for adults:

Seventh Commandment:
To keep this Commandment, WE need to acquire the virtues of moderation in our possessions, justice in our treatment of others respect for their human dignity, and solidarity with all peoples. Moderation curbs OUR attachment to worldly goods and restrains OUR appetite for consumerism. Justice helps US to respect our neighbors rights and be interested in their human well being. Solidarity opens OUR HEARTS to identifying with the whole human family, reminding US of OUR common humanity.
We should not steal from each other, PAY unfair salaries, CHEAT in business, or exploit people's weaknesses to make money. Promises should be KEPT and CONTRACTS honored to the extent the ISSUES ARE MORALLY just. [cf CCC, no 2410]. WE need to safeguard legitimate OWNERSHIP OF MONEY and PROPERTY and to protect people from ROBBERY and INJURY.


PAGE 421...

The central focus of the Church's social teaching is justice for all, especially the helpless and the poor. IT involves the removal of the SYMPTOMS AND CAUSES OF POVERTY and injustice.
The Church's social doctrine addresses a wide range of issues that INCLUDE THE DIGNITY OF WORK, the need of workers TO RECEIVE A SALARY that will ENABLE THEM to care for their families, a safe working environment, and the responsibility of the state for areas such as STABLE CURRENCY, public services, and PROTECTING PERSONAL FREEDOM and PRIVATE PROPERTY.
Church teaching also speaks to the need of business enterprises to consider the good of the EMPLOYEES, not just profit motive. WAGE EARNERS should be able to represent their needs and grievances when necessary.
AS can be seen in the summary that follows, the major themes of Catholic social doctrine is rooted in the fundamental principle of the sacredness of the human life and the fundamental dignity of every single individual. Out of these truths flows the rest.


WE went through social doctrines two weeks ago.

Social doctrines do not demand the government bodies to take more off the rich.

They demand that INDIVIDUAL Christians do their part in HELPING the poor obtain work and become self reliant.

...........