Works?

[izarya]

And do you think the fulfillment of prophecy deals with a particular plan of atonement, i.e., that God has defined, in eternity past, which people will be saved?

I believe that those who have not accepted His grace, or are not "covered" by Christ's sacrifice will still inevitably inherit the Kingdom of Heaven (for he says that it is his will that all be saved), but they will have to shed their own blood HERE at the time of judgement.

Good day.

 

[Reformationist]

work is defined as:
Activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something: sustained physical or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result.
A specific task, duty, function, or assignment often being a part or phase of some larger activity.
Exert oneself by doing mental or physical work for a purpose or out of necessity.
Performance of moral or religious acts.
In this sense, works could be considered preaching, ministering, participation in communal services (including church attendance), Baptism, and keeping of the Mosaic law which is probably what Paul spoke of in particularly, as this is what he contended with.

I agree.

We are not saved by works alone, neither are we saved by faith alone.
James 2:17, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

There is no contradiction here, there must be a sincere balance between the two, both faith and works are necessary for salvation.

Of course there is no contradiction in the Word of God but equating two completely different types of justification and then, on the basis of that inappropriate equation, concluding that both faith and works are necessary to be saved is unwarranted:

The justification of which James speaks is not the justification of which Paul speaks. One indication of this is the timing. Abraham was justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar (James 2:21). This was about thirty years after he had been justified by faith (Gen. 15:6). James shows that he is sensitive to timing when he says in 2:23 that Abraham's justification by works fulfilled Genesis 15:6. He speaks of Genesis 15:6 as a prophecy, and of Genesis 22 as its fulfillment. Prophecy and fulfillment do not occur at the same time and are not the same thing.

What then is the nature of justification in James? James indicates this plainly in 2:18: "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." He is speaking about demonstrating the genuineness of faith.

- James and Justification by Faith

Proverbs 11:1 "A false balance is abomination to the Lord: but a just wieght (measure) is his delight."

Thanks for quoting this but it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I believe that those who have not accepted His grace, or are not "covered" by Christ's sacrifice will still inevitably inherit the Kingdom of Heaven (for he says that it is his will that all be saved), but they will have to shed their own blood HERE at the time of judgement.

Good day.

This is absolutely contrary to God's Word. There is one way to the Father and that is Christ. Our own blood is an insufficient atonement for our sin as it is the blood of a sinner. If our blood could suffice to appease the wrath of God against our iniquity, we would not have needed a Savior.

Mankind's need for a Savior is proof positive that "our own blood here" will not atone for our sins.

God bless

 

[izarya]

Which do you propose is greater? Faith certainly is key, but in my opinion, faith brings work with it. Faith alone is not sufficient, is it?

When Jesus said, let your light shine, this is suggestive of some type of work.
Re: their own blood; I do not believe in hell, eternally. How will the prophecy be fulfilled, that all flesh would worship him in truth?

 

[izarya]

This is absolutely contrary to God's Word. There is one way to the Father and that is Christ. Our own blood is an insufficient atonement for our sin as it is the blood of a sinner. If our blood could suffice to appease the wrath of God against our iniquity, we would not have needed a Savior.
Mankind's need for a Savior is proof positive that "our own blood here" will not atone for our sins.
God bless

Not really. In the Old Testament, sinners were put to death in order for them to be reconciled to God, as "payment" for their offense. As Hebrews 9:22 says "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission."
There were some sins, in which the person was exiled, "cut off from among his people" which was thought to be worse than death, because it represented a "separation" from God as well as his/her people. Those who accept Christ are not in exile, in life, or death, and have no need to fear the penalty of death, for sin.

 

[epistemaniac]

Not really. In the Old Testament, sinners were put to death in order for them to be reconciled to God, as "payment" for their offense. As Hebrews 9:22 says "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission."
There were some sins, in which the person was exiled, "cut off from among his people" which was thought to be worse than death, because it represented a "separation" from God as well as his/her people. Those who accept Christ are not in exile, in life, or death, and have no need to fear the penalty of death, for sin.

sinners were certainly, at times, put to death fro their sins.... but this death was not effacacious in any way as an atonement for their sins.. the only way... the ONLY way someone can be saved, is if Christ propitiated and expiated their sins before a just and holy God.... and the ONLY way they can be saved is by faith in the Son.....

(Romans 3:22-25) the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins."

(Hebrews 2:17-18) Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

(1 John 2:1-2) My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

(1 John 4:10) In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

the death of a sinner may have been the penalty for a given sin, but that death did not expiate or propitiate God's wrath towards their sin.... because their death would have been the death of an unclean lamb.... only Christ was the perfect spotless lamb,
(John 1:29) The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
(1 Peter 1:17-19) And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.


only His perfect life, death, atonement and intercession can save someone... a person cannot be saved by their own name, by their own death because they are not a worthy sacrifice... only by Jesus'...

(Acts 4:12) And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."


all sacrifices.... all the shedding of blood prior to the coming of Christ, never atoned for their sins.... EVER....

(Hebrews 10:3-6) But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure.

(Hebrews 9:11-12) But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

.....these sacrifices were all just imperfect shadows of what was to come in Christ....

(Hebrews 8:4-7) Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second."

blessings

 

[Reformationist]

Which do you propose is greater? Faith certainly is key, but in my opinion, faith brings work with it. Faith alone is not sufficient, is it?

We cannot speak of faith without works as a valid form of faith so the question is somewhat of a strawman. James' method is to contrast a vital faith, which is manifested through our works, and a dead faith, which is nothing more than a shallow profession.

The "key" then, is possession, not profession. Our faith must be evidenced by a changed life. If not, we are not of God and the truth is not in us.

When Jesus said, let your light shine, this is suggestive of some type of work.

But of course. These works do not justify us before God. They merely show the validity of our faith, i.e., vindicate our faith. The usage of the word "justify" in James is the same manner as in Luke 7:35

"But wisdom is justified by all her children."

IOW, wisdom is shown to be true wisdom by what it results in.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

sinners were certainly, at times, put to death fro their sins.... but this death was not effacacious in any way as an atonement for their sins.. the only way... the ONLY way someone can be saved, is if Christ propitiated and expiated their sins before a just and holy God.... and the ONLY way they can be saved is by faith in the Son.....

This was much more articulate than my response would have been so I'll just offer my hearty .

God bless

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Reformationist;

I have no ability, nor do you, to prove anything from Scripture and your baseless assertion that "if I could have, I would have already" is not becoming for a person of your age.

It isn't becoming for a Christian to tell someone they are heretical with out being able to prove it. Since you are unable by your own assertion to give reason for your accusation that I'm heretical I must assume that you are biblically illiterate and couldn't possibly know whether I am or not. Therefore you have accused me with baseless claims of heresey.

The minute you do so, you espouse heresy.

False accusations are lies. Never the less I forgive you for being so rude. It's not your fault you were predestined to do it.
ILUVLIGHT

 

[Reformationist]

It isn't becoming for a Christian to tell someone they are heretical with out being able to prove it. Since you are unable by your own assertion to give reason for your accusation that I'm heretical I must assume that you are biblically illiterate and couldn't possibly know whether I am or not.

I didn't say I couldn't present Scripture in support of my position. I said I could prove anything to you, just like you can't prove anything to me. Unlike God, my ability to accomplish something is regulated by forces outside my control. In this case, your willingness to abandon doctrine which identifies your response as the regulative agent in your salvation.

Never the less I forgive you for being so rude. It's not your fault you were predestined to do it.
ILUVLIGHT

I was not rude. It is not rude to call heresy, heresy. You should thank me, though I doubt you will. Nontheless, the minute you claim that God's ability to effectively convict man and bring him to faith is regulated by man's choice you espouse heresy.

God bless

 

[izarya]

Certainly, Christ is the way, and the truth. I was not contending that. Neither was I contending the fact that there is no other sacrifice for the salvation of mankind. I was simply saying that (in my opinion) since God first had the old covenant in place, though it was imperfect, I'm sure he took into consideration a means for those individuals at that time to repent. I can't accept that all who lived prior to the Birth, Death, and Resurrection of Christ remained in limbo until they were able to be received by God who bestowed so much favor upon them when they were alive...In a condition of sin.

Judaism holds that no human being is perfect, and all people do and have sinned many times. However certain states of sin do not condemn a person to damnation; only one or two truly grievous sins lead to anything approaching the Biblical conception of hell. The Biblical and rabbinic conception of God is that of a creator who tempers justice with mercy. Based on the views of Judaism, God is said to have thirteen attributes of mercy:

1. God is merciful before someone sins, even though God knows that a person is capable of sin.
2. God is merciful to a sinner even after the person has sinned.
3. God represents the power to be merciful even in areas that a human would not expect or deserve.
4. God is compassionate, and eases the punishment of the guilty.
5. God is gracious even to those who are not deserving.
6. God is slow to anger.
7. God is abundant in kindness.
8. God is the god of truth, thus we can count on God's promises to forgive repentant sinners.
9. God guarantees kindness to future generations, as the deeds of the righteous patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have benefits to all their descendants.
10. God forgives intentional sins if the sinner repents.
11. God forgives a deliberate angering of Him if the sinner repents.
12. God forgives sins that are committed in error.
13. God wipes away the sins from those who repent.

 

[Reformationist]

I can't accept that all who lived prior to the Birth, Death, and Resurrection of Christ remained in limbo until they were able to be received by God who bestowed so much favor upon them when they were alive...In a condition of sin.

Where is "limbo" and how would someone get there, much less "remain" there until the birth, death, and resurrection of the Savior?

Judaism holds that no human being is perfect, and all people do and have sinned many times. However certain states of sin do not condemn a person to damnation; only one or two truly grievous sins lead to anything approaching the Biblical conception of hell.

Well, I'm sure that you find that comforting. I'm not sure it's overly wise to take your cue from people who deny the Messiah but, hey, good luck with that.

The Biblical and rabbinic conception of God is that of a creator who tempers justice with mercy.

Mercy is not the opposite of justice so it is incongruous to pit the one attribute against the other as if God is displeased with the fullness of His divine justice. God's justice is perfect, however He determines to dispenses it. He needn't "temper" it in any way. The fact that He has chosen to provide a sacrifice upon which He will administer His justice on behalf of the elect, thereby making it fitting to be merciful to them is, in no way, indicative of any reproach. God is glorified by the administration of justice against sinners.

God bless

 

[izarya]

Where is "limbo" and how would someone get there, much less "remain" there until the birth, death, and resurrection of the Savior?

Well, why don't you shed some light on this then?

Mercy is not the opposite of justice so it is incongruous to pit the one attribute against the other as if God is displeased with the fullness of His divine justice.

More rhetoric

 

[epistemaniac]

I didn't say I couldn't present Scripture in support of my position. I said I could prove anything to you, just like you can't prove anything to me. Unlike God, my ability to accomplish something is regulated by forces outside my control. In this case, your willingness to abandon doctrine which identifies your response as the regulative agent in your salvation.



I was not rude. It is not rude to call heresy, heresy. You should thank me, though I doubt you will. Nontheless, the minute you claim that God's ability to effectively convict man and bring him to faith is regulated by man's choice you espouse heresy.

God bless

it does seem odd Reformationist, that some can say Calvinism is false teaching, a different gospel, that Calvinist teachers are false teachers, that Calvinism isn't scriptural, isn't supported by scripture... yet none of this is "rude"..... . :o

fyi.... I have been able to say a hearty amen to so many of your points as well... thanks for blessing me by what you write....

blessings

 

[Reformationist]

it does seem odd Reformationist, that some can say Calvinism is false teaching, a different gospel, that Calvinist teachers are false teachers, that Calvinism isn't scriptural, isn't supported by scripture... yet none of this is "rude"..... . :o

Too true my brother.

fyi.... I have been able to say a hearty amen to so many of your points as well... thanks for blessing me by what you write....

blessings

Well, coming from someone who, so far as I can tell by the posts of yours I've been fortunate enough to read, has a thoroughly sound and God centered understanding of the Gospel, I take your agreement as a great encouragment. Thank you.

God bless

 

[hlaltimus]

Hello. The Bible explicitly states that we are not saved by works (Eph 2:8,9). I often hear discussions where there is disagreement on what is, and is not, a work. So, please give a definition of a work as you understand it from a biblical perspective.

Thanks,
God bless

A "work" is to faith, what a "word" is to thought; An outward expression of something otherwise unseen. Here, then, is the futility of any so called "faith" that is entirely devoid of any manifestion of that faith's existence. If a man in a hospital registered no pulse, no blood pressure, no respiration or bodily movements at all, he would quickly be considered dead to nature from a judgment that proceeded from a total abscence of any expressions of that nature. The doctor would first look for manifestations of life before he could conclude that the patient was alive, and there is the value of "works" in our salvation. Where "works" though must excluded in our salvation, is there also discovered the difference that must be put between the invisible element of "faith" and the visible manifestation of it's existence, or a work, and so there is a difference between what both of those two considerations are to accomplish. In the case of the faith of the work, it accomplishes pardon, justification and citizenship in the kingdom of God through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God independant of any meritorious good works. In the case of the work of the faith though, it accomplishes holiness of life in sanctification. Since the work of the faith is not our basis for salvation from the eternal guilt and ruin of sin, salvation is there not of personal works but of faith in Christ's personal works in our place, but the salvation from the acts or deeds of sin in sanctification is definitely a work of the faith as we abstain from what God has forbidden and comply with what God has commanded consequentially because we still have faith in the offensiveness of sin and the beauty of holiness. I don't know how "works" can ever be defined without the causitive subject of "faith" also being treated.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Don't we all believe that we must forgive in order for our sins to be forgiven by God?

 

[cygnusx1]

Don't we all believe that we must forgive in order for our sins to be forgiven by God?

yes , which goes to show many sins shall not be forgiven!

 

[DrBubbaLove]

well if God requires us to forgive in order for us to be forgiven by Him, then obviously we have to do something for salvation, which by itself precludes the idea that our faith alone saves us. The same could be said of love.

 

[Reformationist]

A "work" is to faith, what a "word" is to thought; An outward expression of something otherwise unseen. Here, then, is the futility of any so called "faith" that is entirely devoid of any manifestion of that faith's existence. If a man in a hospital registered no pulse, no blood pressure, no respiration or bodily movements at all, he would quickly be considered dead to nature from a judgment that proceeded from a total abscence of any expressions of that nature. The doctor would first look for manifestations of life before he could conclude that the patient was alive, and there is the value of "works" in our salvation. Where "works" though must excluded in our salvation, is there also discovered the difference that must be put between the invisible element of "faith" and the visible manifestation of it's existence, or a work, and so there is a difference between what both of those two considerations are to accomplish. In the case of the faith of the work, it accomplishes pardon, justification and citizenship in the kingdom of God through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God independant of any meritorious good works. In the case of the work of the faith though, it accomplishes holiness of life in sanctification. Since the work of the faith is not our basis for salvation from the eternal guilt and ruin of sin, salvation is there not of personal works but of faith in Christ's personal works in our place, but the salvation from the acts or deeds of sin in sanctification is definitely a work of the faith as we abstain from what God has forbidden and comply with what God has commanded consequentially because we still have faith in the offensiveness of sin and the beauty of holiness. I don't know how "works" can ever be defined without the causitive subject of "faith" also being treated.

That was a very good post. Thank you.

God bless