Works?

[Reformationist]

Placing our faith in God can be termed a work, but it is not a work of merit nor works of the law.

Okay.

Jesus is saying what God requires of us, to believe in the One God sent.

I see.

No, we are not saved by a work of faith. We are saved by grace through faith.

I agree.

This thread's OP asked for a definition of works

I wrote the opening post. I am well aware of what it asks for.

I have provided the biblical answer.

That very well may be true. I'm still trying to discern what it is you're actually saying, which was why I asked for clarification. You're coming off as defensive. Not sure if you mean to but, either way, I'm sure the biblical veracity of your explanation will be determined.

As far as John 6:28-29, the folks asked Jesus what they must do, and Jesus told them they must believe. That they understood the answer as applying to their action is demonstrated by verse 30. The idea that Jesus is saying what God does for them turns the passage on its head and makes what Jesus said to no effect. Verse 27 refers to the action of the folks, verse 28 refers to the action of the folks, and verse 30 refers to the action of the folks, so to deny verse 29 refers to the action of the folks is without merit.

Thanks for this drawn out expose on the meaning of those verses. Can you please show me where it is that anyone has, thus far, claimed anything about who does the believing or that John 6:29 refers to God doing the believing for the person? I ask because, as is often the case in your preemptive strikes against reformed doctrine, you appear to object to points that have not yet been made.

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Van]

Hi Reformationist, sorry but even though it may appear to you that I am being defensive, I do not believe I am being defensive, so why not address my views rather than my admittedly flawed character?

As far as your assertion that I appear to be taking a preemptive strike because I addressed the RT view of John 6:29, take a gander at post #2.

 

[Reformationist]

Hi Reformationist, sorry but even though it may appear to you that I am being defensive, I do not believe I am being defensive

Okay. Good. Glad to know that you don't feel defensive.

so why not address my views rather than my admittedly flawed character?

I wansn't trying to claim your character is flawed. Trust me, if anyone's character is flawed, it would be my own, though I admit I am working on it.

So, your view:

Placing our faith in God can be termed a work, but it is not a work of merit nor works of the law.
Jesus is saying what God requires of us, to believe in the One God sent.
No, we are not saved by a work of faith. We are saved by grace through faith.

To that I can only say, insofar as I understand it, I agree.

As far as your assertion that I appear to be taking a preemptive strike because I addressed the RT view of John 6:29, take a gander at post #2.

Not sure if it is pertinent but I can assure you that ILUVLIGHT is most certainly NOT a reformed Christian. That said, I actually think that ILUVLIGHT has properly explained that passage and I reiterate his comment:

"To believe in God is a result of God's work."

As you can see, ILUVLIGHT is not saying that the act of believing is the work of God or that God does it for man but, rather, that man's act of believing God is the result of God's work in that person.

So, if post #2 was your basis for addressing the issue of who does the believing, I think you may have misunderstood.

God bless

 

[A Brother In Christ]

unbeliever does a righteous thing.... hay wood and stubble

believer that is carnal does a righteous thing ... hay wood and stubble

believer who is spiritual does a righteous thing ...gold, silver, precious stones

in Hebrews 4:9-10 we get to enter into rest up in the heavenlies ..right now possible... ceased from his own works

so who is doing the good works thru us... if we are resting... and making him Lord

God thru us..... eph 3:20, col 3:1-4

 

[Van]

Post #2 was and is the basis, and it asserts John 6:29 is refering to God's work in us, rather than the work God requires of us. Hence, it turns the passage on its head. And again, I did not assert anything concerning the poster of post #2, I said the post presented the reformed view, and you agree.

 

[Reformationist]

Post #2 was and is the basis, and it asserts John 6:29 is refering to God's work in us, rather than the work God requires of us.

As usual, you'd rather derail a thread than actually consider anything beyond what you have to say. I posted a quote directly from post #2:

"To believe in God is a result of God's work."

Far be it from me to state the obvious but, the quote says that believing in God is a result of God's work. It doesn't say that believing in God is God's work.

Additionally, ILUVLIGHT stated, "To believe in God depends entirely upon the work that God does in convincing us of the truth."

Now, I do not speak for him but, I see a clear differentiation being made between "believing in God" and "the work that God does in convincing us of the truth." "Believing in God" is being touted as the result of "the work that God does in convincing us of the truth" so they cannot be the same thing.

And again, I did not assert anything concerning the poster of post #2

I never said you did. I merely clarified that I am certain that that poster is not a reformed Christian.

I said the post presented the reformed view, and you agree.

No, that particular poster presented his understanding of the passage. The fact that it is also the reformed view does not mean that he presented the reformed view.

 

[Mindonfire]

Not sure if you're just playing the devil's advocate but, as you can see in the portion of my post that you quote, Ephesians 2:8,9:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

God bless

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Thank you. Now question, If you are saved by grace through faith and faith without works is dead, then doesn't works factor into the equation? Could that verse be speaking of something else?

 

[Reformationist]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Thank you. Now question, If you are saved by grace through faith and faith without works is dead, then doesn't works factor into the equation?

I'm not sure if it was intentional but you have cited a passage regarding eternal salvation and coupled it with a passage speaking of the vindication of our faith before man. Works "factor into the equation" insofar as those who stand before God justified by the imputation of His righteousness and transformed by His monergistic work of regeneration will seek to do the will of their Lord, just as those who remain dead in their sins seek to do their will of their lord, i.e., satan, however unintentional their servitude may be.

Could that verse be speaking of something else?

Ephesians 2:8,9? I doubt it but if you feel it does, please enlighten us. I am always willing to learn.

God bless

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Thank you. Now question, If you are saved by grace through faith and faith without works is dead, then doesn't works factor into the equation? Could that verse be speaking of something else?

james 2:20 faith without works are dead...

#1 question
is this being talked about God or man?

#2
does God know the inner working of ones mind?

#3 james 2:21 states an example of Abrahams work
and it was in gen 22:10
Hebrews 11:8 first had faith connect with gen 15:6

 

[Van]

Hi Reformationist, I see you have returned to form, attacking me as trying to derail the thread, rather than accepting that you were mistaken yet again. Is it our work or God's work. You say faith is the result of God's work. That turns John 6:29 on its head. I have explained the meaning of works, answering the OP question, and I have answered all you follow on questions. The result, I am charged with wrong-doing.

Folks, Paul had obeying the Law of Moses in view in Ephesians 2:8-9, we are saved by grace through faith, it is a gift of God and not of works.

Is our faith the result of God's works? Of course, He revealed Himself and sent His Son to be His witness. But is this the RT view? Nope. They say via irresistible grace, our core character of spiritual inability is supernaturally altered and we are compelled to come to faith. John 6:29 does not refer to this invention, but rather to God's requirement that we believe in the One He sent.

 

[Van]

Lets go over the "moving the goal posts" fallacy one more time. RT draws a distinction without a difference when it says our faith is the result of God's work in us, rather than our faith is the work of God. It drives a wedge into cause and effect logical linkage and clouds the RT idea that we are irresistibly compelled to come to faith. By adopting the vague language of "a result of God's work" with the work not being stated, the doctrine of irresistible grace is cloaked.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

They say via irresistible grace, our core character of spiritual inability is supernaturally altered and we are compelled to come to faith. John 6:29 does not refer to this invention, but rather to God's requirement that we believe in the One He sent.

2 cor 4:3-6

romans 1:16 ... for it is the power of God unto salvation ....

man believes if the HS convict him of john 16:7-11

if not they are goats...

 

[Reformationist]

Hi Reformationist, I see you have returned to form, attacking me as trying to derail the thread, rather than accepting that you were mistaken yet again. I have explained the meaning of works, answering the OP question, and I have answered all you follow on questions. The result, I am charged with wrong-doing.

Now that we have reached an impasse, yet again, and you feel that you have answered the OP, please move along and play the victim in some other thread. If you regularly feel victimized by me, then feel free to find someone else to annoy. I can't count the number of threads I've started or been involved in that rapidly became a waste of time due to your input. I have no desire to engage in debate or conversation with someone like you. Please, please, move along. Start your own thread. Muddy up a different thread. Whatever you do, please do it somewhere else.

 

[YoungBerean]

Thats a great question. Its funny but I have never gotten a good defintion from any place but the scripture.
The only works the bible seems to talk about are works of the Law, which don't justify ROM 3:20, works or deeds of the flesh ROM 8:13 that don't justify either, and finally the work that Christ did on the cross which obiviously does justify us. The work of the cross is the only work I know of that can save us.

 

[Mindonfire]

I'm not sure if it was intentional but you have cited a passage regarding eternal salvation and coupled it with a passage speaking of the vindication of our faith before man. Works "factor into the equation" insofar as those who stand before God justified by the imputation of His righteousness and transformed by His monergistic work of regeneration will seek to do the will of their Lord, just as those who remain dead in their sins seek to do their will of their lord, i.e., satan, however unintentional their servitude may be.



Ephesians 2:8,9? I doubt it but if you feel it does, please enlighten us. I am always willing to learn.

God bless

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Well if you study the verse, it seems to say that you are saved by both grace and works but it starts with Grace. And because salvation starts with Grace from God, you can't boast. Because without that Grace, you would not have been given the opportunity to do the works which lead to your salvation.

 

[Van]

Mindonfire, that is the opposite of what Ephesians 2:8-9 seems to say to me, a salvation by grace through faith, and not of works. Romans 4:4-5 demonstrates that putting out faith in Christ is not doing works.

 

[Van]

Hi YoungBerean, yes it appears that Paul had the "works of the Law of Moses" in mind when he wrote Ephesians 2:8-9, based on Romans 3:20. But to expand the idea a little, in Romans 2, we see Paul making the argument that if we judge others, we are using the natural law written on our hearts, and so when we treat others differently than we treat ourselves, we are violating the natual law and we will be judged by that law. So in Romans 2:14, we see your "law of the flesh" and therefore might also be in view as "works" of the law.

 

[Reformationist]

Thats a great question. Its funny but I have never gotten a good defintion from any place but the scripture.
The only works the bible seems to talk about are works of the Law, which don't justify ROM 3:20, works or deeds of the flesh ROM 8:13 that don't justify either, and finally the work that Christ did on the cross which obiviously does justify us. The work of the cross is the only work I know of that can save us.

Thanks for your answer. I'd have to say I agree.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Ephesians 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Well if you study the verse, it seems to say that you are saved by both grace and works but it starts with Grace. And because salvation starts with Grace from God, you can't boast. Because without that Grace, you would not have been given the opportunity to do the works which lead to your salvation.

I'm confused by your answer. You said, "it seems to say that you are saved by both grace and works" after posting the verses that say "not of works." Can you reconcile this clear discrepency?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Mindonfire]

Not sure if you're just playing the devil's advocate but, as you can see in the portion of my post that you quote, Ephesians 2:8,9:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

God bless

wrong reply