Works?

[Reformationist]

Hello. The Bible explicitly states that we are not saved by works (Eph 2:8,9). I often hear discussions where there is disagreement on what is, and is not, a work. So, please give a definition of a work as you understand it from a biblical perspective.

Thanks,
God bless

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Reformationist;

Hello. The Bible explicitly states that we are not saved by works (Eph 2:8,9). I often hear discussions where there is disagreement on what is, and is not, a work. So, please give a definition of a work as you understand it from a biblical perspective.

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

A work for God or, of God?. If it be God's work it can't be our work. A work for God is doing his bidding.
To believe in God is a result of God's work. Not a result of our own. To believe in God depends entirley upon the work that God does in convincing us of the truth. Being convinced is not a work of the one convinced but of the one who convinces us of truth.
ILUVLIGHT

 

[Reformationist]

Hi Reformationist

Hey.

Joh 6:28

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, ThisistheworkofGod,thatyebelieveonhimwhomhehathsent.

A work for God or, of God?. If it be God's work it can't be our work. A work for God is doing his bidding.
To believe in God is a result of God's work. Not a result of our own. To believe in God depends entirley upon the work that God does in convincing us of the truth. Being convinced is not a work of the one convinced but of the one who convinces us of truth.
ILUVLIGHT

Thanks for the explanation. Just for clarity, when I say "a work," I simply refer to the same "work" that people refer to when they agree that we are not "saved by works." At this point, I'm just trying to come to an understanding on what people are referring to when they say that.

Thanks,
God bless

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Hello. The Bible explicitly states that we are not saved by works (Eph 2:8,9). I often hear discussions where there is disagreement on what is, and is not, a work. So, please give a definition of a work as you understand it from a biblical perspective.

Works is anything we do to gain or merit favor in God's sight. Romans 4:4 says,

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.

We are not saved by our works. God is not obligated to grant anyone salvation. All unbelievers are under God's wrath, and no work from a sinful person can change that. Instead salvation is a gift. God removes his enmity on that person, forgives them of their sins, and declares them to be righteous. That sinner - now a believer - is saved by grace through faith.

From a Biblical perspective, works is contrasted with faith and with grace:

Romans 9:32 Why not? Because they (Israel) pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.


LDG

 

[Reformationist]

Works is anything we do to gain or merit favor in God's sight. Romans 4:4 says,

Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.

We are not saved by our works. God is not obligated to grant anyone salvation. All unbelievers are under God's wrath, and no work from a sinful person can change that. Instead salvation is a gift. God removes his enmity on that person, forgives them of their sins, and declares them to be righteous. That sinner - now a believer - is saved by grace through faith.

From a Biblical perspective, works is contrasted with faith and with grace:

Romans 9:32 Why not? Because they (Israel) pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.


LDG

Thank you. That was a great post.

God bless

 

[Mindonfire]

Hello. The Bible explicitly states that we are not saved by works (Eph 2:8,9). I often hear discussions where there is disagreement on what is, and is not, a work. So, please give a definition of a work as you understand it from a biblical perspective.

Thanks,
God bless

First, where does the Bible explicitly state that you are not saved by works?

 

[Reformationist]

First, where does the Bible explicitly state that you are not saved by works?

Not sure if you're just playing the devil's advocate but, as you can see in the portion of my post that you quote, Ephesians 2:8,9:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

God bless

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Some of my (rather Protestant) thoughts....



1. "Works" - while commanded in Scripture are not specifically defined. I would define "good work" as being a thought, word or deed that springs from faith, is moral, selfless, and gives glory to God. It fulfills the Great Commandment: "Love one another as I first loved you."


2. Two common Protestant proverbs:
"Faith alone saves, but faith is never alone."
"We are saved for works, not by works."
In both cases, "saved" is meant in the sense of justification.


My $0.01


Pax


- Josiah



.

 

[holdon]

Some of my (rather Protestant) thoughts....



1. "Works" - while commanded in Scripture are not specifically defined. I would define "good work" as being a thought, word or deed that springs from faith, is moral, selfless, and gives glory to God. It fulfills the Great Commandment: "Love one another as I first loved you."


2. Two common Protestant proverbs:
"Faith alone saves, but faith is never alone."
"We are saved for works, not by works."
In both cases, "saved" is meant in the sense of justification.


My $0.01


Pax


- Josiah



.

We protestants say even with James:

"Ye see that a man is justified on the principle of works, and not on the principle of faith only."

James 2:24

 

[Reformationist]

We protestants say even with James:

"Ye see that a man is justified on the principle of works, and not on the principle of faith only."

James 2:24

We Protestants NEVER say that in reference man's justification before God as that verse addresses only the justification (vindication) of man's faith before man.

God bless

 

[Van]

The works in view in Ephesians 2:8-9 may be the works of the law, i.e actions in obedience to the law. Paul tells us by the law, no one is justified, so salvation is not based on our efforts to obey the law.

A second question is "what law." The law of Moses, or the natural law written on our heart. Romans 2 teaches both of these types of laws are in view.

Note also that "works" is plural, so the idea is doing things, like working for a wage, where our salvation is earned. But if it is earned by doing works, then it is not by grace. So this view opens the door for the idea that we can do a work, singular, the work God requires of us, and that is to believe in the One God sent.

Because the folks ask what work they can do, and Jesus answers with a singular work, the best understanding of the verse is Jesus is saying what work God requires of them. This view is consistent with Romans 4:4-5 where faith is shown not to be works.

 

[holdon]

We Protestants NEVER say that in reference man's justification before God as that verse addresses only the justification (vindication) of man's faith before man.

God bless

That may be true, but most protestants don't say "justification before God" either, when they talk about justification by faith alone.

And that's why a lot of Protestant and Catholics get against eachother on the subject.

By the way, I've heard it said that because of James 2:24 Luther wanted to have that book removed from the bible.

 

[Reformationist]

The works in view in Ephesians 2:8-9 may be the works of the law, i.e actions in obedience to the law. Paul tells us by the law, no one is justified, so salvation is not based on our efforts to obey the law.

A second question is "what law." The law of Moses, or the natural law written on our heart. Romans 2 teaches both of these types of laws are in view.

Note also that "works" is plural, so the idea is doing things, like working for a wage, where our salvation is earned. But if it is earned by doing works, then it is not by grace. So this view opens the door for the idea that we can do a work, singular, the work God requires of us, and that is to believe in the One God sent.

Because the folks ask what work they can do, and Jesus answers with a singular work, the best understanding of the verse is Jesus is saying what work God requires of them. This view is consistent with Romans 4:4-5 where faith is shown not to be works.

I'm a bit confused by your answer. You say, "we can do a work, singular, the work God requires of us, and that [work] is to believe in the One God sent." You further that point by submitting that when people ask what work they can do, Jesus answers by telling them that they can do the work that God requires of them. Then, in seeming contradiction to these previous contentions that we can do the work God requires of us, you follow up by saying, "faith is shown to not be works."

Is faith a work that we are commanded to do and, in fact, can do, or is it not a work?

Also, are you distinguishing between the work of "believing in the One God sent" and faith?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

That may be true, but most protestants don't say justification before God either, when they talk about justification by faith alone.

"Justification by faith alone" is always and only a reference to our standing before God so I fail to see why you'd think that is true. Any Christian who understands what "justification by faith alone" means wouldn't need to clarify that they mean "before God" because it is understood in the content of the meaning of "justification by faith alone."

And that's why a lot of Protestant and Catholics get against eachother on the subject.

I'd have to disagree. I think that the reason that a lot of Protestants and Catholics are opposed on this subject is because Catholics erroneously understand James 2:24 to be referencing the same justification as Romans 3:28.

By the way, I've heard it said that because of James 2:24 Luther wanted to have that book removed from the bible.

Well, I don't know that Luther's feelings about the book of James stem exclusively from that verse but I am aware that he did not think it canonical. He wasn't alone in that assessment.

God bless

 

[Van]

When we place our faith in God and His Christ, that is a singular work, but is not works of the law nor a work of merit whereby salvation is earned. Romans 4:4-5.

 

[Reformationist]

When we place our faith in God and His Christ, that is a singular work, but is not works of the law nor a work of merit whereby salvation is earned. Romans 4:4-5.

So, placing our faith in God is a work, but Jesus is not saying that the work of faith isn't what saves us? Does that mean that we are saved by the work of faith?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Van]

So, placing our faith in God is a work, but Jesus is not saying that the work of faith isn't what saves us? Does that mean that we are saved by the work of faith?

Placing our faith in God can be termed a work, but it is not a work of merit nor works of the law.
Jesus is saying what God requires of us, to believe in the One God sent.
No, we are not saved by a work of faith. We are saved by grace through faith.

This thread's OP asked for a definition of works, and I have provided the biblical answer. As far as John 6:28-29, the folks asked Jesus what they must do, and Jesus told them they must believe. That they understood the answer as applying to their action is demonstrated by verse 30. The idea that Jesus is saying what God does for them turns the passage on its head and makes what Jesus said to no effect. Verse 27 refers to the action of the folks, verse 28 refers to the action of the folks, and verse 30 refers to the action of the folks, so to deny verse 29 refers to the action of the folks is without merit.

 

[cygnusx1]

I'm a bit confused by your answer. You say, "we can do a work, singular, the work God requires of us, and that [work] is to believe in the One God sent." You further that point by submitting that when people ask what work they can do, Jesus answers by telling them that they can do the work that God requires of them. Then, in seeming contradiction to these previous contentions that we can do the work God requires of us, you follow up by saying, "faith is shown to not be works."

Is faith a work that we are commanded to do and, in fact, can do, or is it not a work?

Also, are you distinguishing between the work of "believing in the One God sent" and faith?

Thanks,
God bless

the error is known as Neonomianism bro , how subtle is false doctrine!

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

So, placing our faith in God is a work, but Jesus is not saying that the work of faith isn't what saves us? Does that mean that we are saved by the work of faith?

Thanks,
God bless

My perspective...


Justification is the work of God.
Not ours.


Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing it is the gift of God."



Thank you.


My $0.01


Pax


- Josiah



.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

unbeliever does a righteous thing.... hay wood and stubble

believer that is carnal does a righteous thing ... hay wood and stubble

believer who is spiritual does a righteous thing ...gold, silver, precious stones

in Hebrews 4:9-10 we get to enter into rest up in the heavenlies ..right now possible... ceased from his own works

so who is doing the good works thru us... if we are resting

God thru us..... eph 3:20, col 3:1-4