Works?

[Mindonfire]

I'm confused by your answer. You said, "it seems to say that you are saved by both grace and works" after posting the verses that say "not of works." Can you reconcile this clear discrepency?

Thanks,
God bless

Ephesians 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Well, it is actually quite simple. What is simple, man by his doctrines have skewed and made difficult.

If you study the verse it first tells you that “For by grace are ye saved” “For” is a word which also means because; therefore, if that verse states, “For by grace are ye saved,” then it is telling you that it is because of “Grace” that you are saved. This then means that “Grace” must be a “Foundation,” or “Starting Block.” Then the verse continues and states, “through faith” This immediately tells you that “Grace” is not alone. Instead, it is working in conjunction with ‘Faith‘. If you were saved by Grace alone then there is no need for it to be through anything. The verse would only need to state, “For by grace are ye saved.” Therefore, to state that it is through “Faith” tells us that we need both “Grace” and “Faith”
This means that “Grace” comes first followed by faith.


Secondly, if faith without works is dead, then faith and works are One. You can’t have faith without any works to shew for it. So, if you have faith, then you will have works. Which then means that your faith is represented by or is seen in your works.

Thirdly, The verse states, “ [it is] the gift of God:” Grace is the gift which God has given to all men. Man is a convicted criminal. The foundation of Grace which is what you Start on is giving freely by God. You can’t earn that foundation. That foundation is your probationary period for you to build your house that you might obtain salvation. For example; A convicted criminal may be given Grace or Probation by a Judge. He doesn’t earn that Grace. The judge from the kindness of his heart gives him that Grace. But in order for the criminal to remain out of jail during that period and later on in the future, he must perform according to the Law. If he doesn’t he is thrown back in jail. If he does perform accordingly he is allowed to continue in society. The same is true with God. All are convicted, so he gives all an opportunity to make amends. This opportunity is free. If one performs accordingly, then they obtain Salvation. If they don’t, well death, misery and destruction awaits.

Finally, you are not saved by works alone. And you are not saved by Grace alone. You are saved by both working in conjunction. You are saved by Grace with Faith or Works. Both are in conjunction. It Starts by God’s Grace and continues with Faith or Works. So, you can’t boast because without Grace you would not have the opportunity to work on obtaining your salvation. The criminal who is given Grace, but who refuses to reform himself and follow it up with works, will wind up receiving those suspended penalties. Look at Noah. By God’s Grace he was given revelation about the coming judgement. But if he didn’t work to build that ark, he would have perished with the rest. He couldn’t boast though. Because if God had not giving him the revelation, he would have perished with the rest. So salvation Starts with God’s Grace working in conjunction with Man’s Faith or Works.

 

[Van]

Understanding Ephesians 2:8-9. False argument number one, because salvation is by grace, God's grace, it is not by man's works, lest anyone should boast. Having set "not by works" aside, by asserting the phrase only applies to the fact that grace comes from God, then Mindonfire claims through faith means through works. But Romans 4:4-5 shows that faith is separate from works, therefore the argument fails.

Faith without works is dead does not define faith as works, it defines heart-felt rooted faith as producing faithful service - works. Now if we are not saved until we physically die, then faith produced works earns our salvation. But if we are saved when God spiritually places us "in Christ" during our physical lives, then pre-salvation faith is all that God requires of us, Acts 16:30-31. If a person claims to be born again, but produces no fruit, he is not in Christ and Christ is not in him, so works proves salvation, it does not provide salvation.

 

[Reformationist]

Ephesians 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Well, it is actually quite simple. What is simple, man by his doctrines have skewed and made difficult.

If you study the verse it first tells you that “For by grace are ye saved” “For” is a word which also means because; therefore, if that verse states, “For by grace are ye saved,” then it is telling you that it is because of “Grace” that you are saved.

Um, actually, it says, "For by grace you are saved..." Therefore, applying your logic should bring us to understand the verse to be telling us that because our salvation is the gracious dispensation of God, delivered to us, and appropriated by us, through faith, we have no reason to boast.

Then the verse continues and states, “through faith” This immediately tells you that “Grace” is not alone. Instead, it is working in conjunction with ‘Faith‘. If you were saved by Grace alone then there is no need for it to be through anything. The verse would only need to state, “For by grace are ye saved.” Therefore, to state that it is through “Faith” tells us that we need both “Grace” and “Faith”
This means that “Grace” comes first followed by faith.

Again, your conclusions are premature. Faith is, itself, the gift of God, as that passage tells us.

Secondly, if faith without works is dead, then faith and works are One. You can’t have faith without any works to shew for it. So, if you have faith, then you will have works. Which then means that your faith is represented by or is seen in your works.

Seen by whom, God or man? Need God see your public display of works to determine the veracity of your "faith?"

Thirdly, The verse states, “ [it is] the gift of God:” Grace is the gift which God has given to all men. Man is a convicted criminal. The foundation of Grace which is what you Start on is giving freely by God. You can’t earn that foundation. That foundation is your probationary period for you to build your house that you might obtain salvation. For example; A convicted criminal may be given Grace or Probation by a Judge. He doesn’t earn that Grace. The judge from the kindness of his heart gives him that Grace. But in order for the criminal to remain out of jail during that period and later on in the future, he must perform according to the Law. If he doesn’t he is thrown back in jail. If he does perform accordingly he is allowed to continue in society. The same is true with God. All are convicted, so he gives all an opportunity to make amends. This opportunity is free. If one performs accordingly, then they obtain Salvation. If they don’t, well death, misery and destruction awaits.

And here we have the downfall of your post. You have just contended that God's contribution was to "freely give you the opportunity to be saved." God's role is reduced to that of "Provider of the opportunity for salvation" rather than "Savior." According to you, His dispensation of grace isn't what saves you. By graciously creating the "opportunity for salvation," He merely makes it possible for you to "make amends." How does one obtain salvation according to your philosophy? Sadly, by "performing accordingly." I guess the burning question is, what must one do for God to consider their performance acceptable?

So, you can’t boast because without Grace you would not have the opportunity to work on obtaining your salvation.

Sort of like a cooperative effort, right? You know, God does His part by contributing the opportunity for you to "make amends" and then you contribute your part, wherein you actually "perform accordingly" and "make amends." Is that it?

 

[Van]

Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say faith is a gift. Those that claim it does are ignoring Greek grammar. What the verse actually says, according to Dr. Wallace, a Calvinist who believes in Irresistible Grace, is that salvation is a gift, not faith.

 

[Van]

Why isn't the work of putting our trust in Christ a work of merit, something we do to earn our salvation? Because our works of righteousness are filthy rags, nothing we can do will earn our salvation. It is God who accepts our faith and credits it as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5, therefore demonstrating that when we put our faith in Christ it is not one of the works in view in Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Why isn't the work of putting our trust in Christ a work of merit, something we do to earn our salvation? Because our works of righteousness are filthy rags, nothing we can do will earn our salvation. It is God who accepts our faith and credits it as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5, therefore demonstrating that when we put our faith in Christ it is not one of the works in view in Ephesians 2:8-9.

romans 11:6 and since by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Reformationist]

Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say faith is a gift. Those that claim it does are ignoring Greek grammar. What the verse actually says, according to Dr. Wallace, a Calvinist who believes in Irresistible Grace, is that salvation is a gift, not faith.

For those of you who actually see God as their Savior rather than themselves, an agreement with the above position is a claim that salvation is a "gift" but the means by which you appropriate it is all you. Forget explaining, without boasting, how some people have faith and use it properly while others, who hear the same message, continue in their rejection. Such reconciliation of an explicit inconsistancy is simply a pipe dream.

As usual, some people love to turn the grace of God into nothing and credit man's choice with his salvation.

The reality is, if the means by which man appropriates salvation is not, itself, ultimately a gift of God's merciful grace, then man has reason to boast.

Additionally, the Greek in that passage does not limit the dispensation of the grace of God to "salvation." "Gift of God" is a primary reference to salvation but it would be inconsistant to acknowledge the gracious nature of "salvation" while contending that the means by which we appropriate it, faith, inexplicably spawns from some and not others, as if the process of regeneration is random and God fails to affect conviction in some due to the invincibility of their obstinate and depraved wills.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Mindoffire;

“For by grace are ye saved.” Therefore, to state that it is through “Faith” tells us that we need both “Grace” and “Faith”
This means that “Grace” comes first followed by faith.

How can something be through something else and it come second? There is no Grace unless faith is there for it to come through.

Secondly, if faith without works is dead, then faith and works are One. You can’t have faith without any works to shew for it. So, if you have faith, then you will have works. Which then means that your faith is represented by or is seen in your works.

Not according to scripture;
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Thirdly, The verse states, “ [it is] the gift of God:” Grace is the gift which God has given to all men. Man is a convicted criminal. The foundation of Grace which is what you Start on is giving freely by God. You can’t earn that foundation. That foundation is your probationary period for you to build your house that you might obtain salvation. For example; A convicted criminal may be given Grace or Probation by a Judge. He doesn’t earn that Grace. The judge from the kindness of his heart gives him that Grace. But in order for the criminal to remain out of jail during that period and later on in the future, he must perform according to the Law. If he doesn’t he is thrown back in jail. If he does perform accordingly he is allowed to continue in society. The same is true with God. All are convicted, so he gives all an opportunity to make amends. This opportunity is free. If one performs accordingly, then they obtain Salvation. If they don’t, well death, misery and destruction awaits.

Saving Grace is only given to those who believe.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
We must believe to have faith or hope and we must have hope to obtain Grace.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Finally, you are not saved by works alone. And you are not saved by Grace alone. You are saved by both working in conjunction. You are saved by Grace with Faith or Works. Both are in conjunction. It Starts by God’s Grace and continues with Faith or Works. So, you can’t boast because without Grace you would not have the opportunity to work on obtaining your salvation. The criminal who is given Grace, but who refuses to reform himself and follow it up with works, will wind up receiving those suspended penalties. Look at Noah. By God’s Grace he was given revelation about the coming judgement. But if he didn’t work to build that ark, he would have perished with the rest. He couldn’t boast though. Because if God had not giving him the revelation, he would have perished with the rest. So salvation Starts with God’s Grace working in conjunction with Man’s Faith or Works.

Works aren't needed for Salvation at all. No one's works have any value towards Salvation.
Faith doesn't come to us as a gift. It comes by hearing the gospel.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Faith is a requirement for Grace. Faith comes by hearing the word of God preached. If one listens to the word then Grace can be bestowed.

ILUVLIGHT

 

[Reformationist]

Faith is a requirement for Grace. Faith comes by hearing the word of God preached. If one listens to the word then Grace can be bestowed.

How does the Word of God produce faith in some and not in others?

God bless

 

[epistemaniac]

Thats a great question. Its funny but I have never gotten a good defintion from any place but the scripture.
The only works the bible seems to talk about are works of the Law, which don't justify ROM 3:20, works or deeds of the flesh ROM 8:13 that don't justify either, and finally the work that Christ did on the cross which obiviously does justify us. The work of the cross is the only work I know of that can save us.

I agree.... we are indeed saved by works.... but not our works, the works of Christ.... we are saved by His perfect life, His sacrifice on the Cross, and His intercession for the saints before the Father which all make salvation for these saints guaranteed because only Christ Jesus ever did the sorts of works that would merit salvation.

blessings

 

[Reformationist]

I agree.... we are indeed saved by works.... but not our works, the works of Christ.... we are saved by His perfect life, His sacrifice on the Cross, and His intercession for the saints before the Father which all make salvation for these saints guaranteed because only Christ Jesus ever did the sorts of works that would merit salvation.

blessings

Great post. Best yet.

God bless

 

[Van]

Yes, Dr. Wallace also agrees that salvation is the gift in view in Ephesians 2:8-9, so the assertion that the verse supports the doctrine of Irresistible Grace is without foundation.

Folks, disregard the slander than folks who understand Ephesians 2:8-9 as it is written, believe we save ourselves. That is an RT charge that is false. God saves us, we are in Christ by His doing, not ours. He established the Covenant of Love, and He keeps His promise. Our faith does not earn salvation, our faith is like dirty rags, but it is God who sovereignly credits our faith as righteousness, who saves us.

As Ephesians 2:8-9 says, we are saved by grace through faith. Faith provides our access to God's grace, Romans 5:2.

And what is the reason we put our trust in Christ? Is God's revelation not an act of Grace, do we have anything we are not given? Nope. We put our trust in the Work of Christ. Do we not recognize that we are wretched sinners, unable to keep the Law, and therefore guilty of violating the whole law? Yes. So we bring nothing but our plea for mercy, and our trust in God's promise that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[epistemaniac]

To say that the Reformed (not that there even is a single Reformed view on the passage) view on Eph. 2:8-9 is without foundation must be considered nothing less then a lie. One may of course be free to disagree with Reformed theology's understanding of this passage, but to say that it is without foundation is at worst scandalous and a lie, and at best, uninformed.




[FONT=&quot]"Reflecting on what he has just now said about grace, and repeating the parenthetical clause of verse 5b, the apostle says, For by grace you have been saved.… For explanation see on verse 5. He continues: through faith; and this not of yourselves, (it is) the gift of God … [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Three explanations deserve consideration:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1) That offered by A. T. Robertson. Commenting on this passage in his Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. IV, p. 525, he states, “Grace is God’s part, faith ours.” He adds that since in the original the demonstrative “this” (and this not of yourselves) is neuter and does not correspond with the gender of the word “faith,” which is feminine, it does not refer to the latter “but to the act of being saved by graceconditioned on faith on our part.” Even more clearly in Gram.N.T., p. 704, he states categorically, “In Eph. 2:8 … there is no reference to δι[/FONT]ὰ[FONT=&quot] πίστεως [through faith] in το[/FONT]ῦ[FONT=&quot]το [this], but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Without any hesitancy I answer, Robertson, to whom the entire world of New Testament scholarship is heavily indebted, does not express himself felicitously in this instance. This is true first because in a context in which the apostle places such tremendous stress on the fact that from start to finish man owes his salvation to God, to him alone, it would have been very strange, indeed, for him to say, “Grace is God’s part, faith ours.” True though it be that both the responsibility of believing and also its activity are ours, for God does not believe for us, nevertheless, in the present context (verses 5–10) one rather expects emphasis on the fact that both in its initiation and in its continuation faith is entirely dependent on God, and so is our complete salvation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Also, Robertson, a grammarian famous in his field, knew that in the original the demonstrative (this), though neuter, by no means always corresponds in gender with its antecedent. That he knew this is shown by the fact that on the indicated page of his Grammar (p. 704) he points out that “in general” the demonstrative “agrees with its substantive in gender and number.” When he says “in general,” he must mean, “not always but most of the time.” Hence, he should have considered more seriously the possibility that, in view of the context, the exception to the rule, an exception by no means rare, applies here. He should have made allowance for it. Finally, he should hare justified the departure from the rule that unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise the antecedent should be looked for in the immediate vicinity of the pronoun or adjective that refers to it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](2) That presented, among others, by F. W. Grosheide. As he sees it, the words “and this not of yourselves” mean “and this being saved by grace through faith is not of yourselves” but is the gift of God. Since, according to this theory — also endorsed, it would seem, by John Calvin in his Commentary — faith is included in the gift, none of the objections against theory (1) apply with respect to theory (2).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Does this mean then that (2) is entirely satisfactory? Not necessarily. This brings us to (3) That defended by A. Kuyper, Sr. in his book Het Werk van den Heiligen Geest (Kampen, 1927), pp. 506–514.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dr. Kuyper is, however, not this theory’s sole defender, but his defence is, perhaps, the most detailed and vigorous. The theory amounts, in brief, to the following: Paul’s words may be paraphrased thus, “I had the right to speak about ‘the surpassing riches of his grace’ for it is, indeed, by grace that you are saved, through faith; and lest you should now begin to say, ‘But then we deserve credit, at least, for believing,’ I will immediately add that even this faith (or: even this exercise of faith) is not of yourselves but is God’s gift.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With variations as to detail this explanation was the one favored by much of the patristic tradition. Supporting it were also Beza, Zanchius, Erasmus, Huigh de Groot (Hugo Grotius), Bengel, Michaelis, etc. It is shared, too, by Simpson (op. cit., p. 55) and by Van Leeuwen and Greijdanus in their commentaries. H. C. G. Moule (Ephesian Studies, New York, 1900, pp. 77, 78) endorses it, with the qualification, “We must explain το[/FONT]ῦ[FONT=&quot]το [this] to refer not to the feminine noun πίστις [faith] precisely, but to the fact of our exercising faith.” Moreover, it is perhaps no exaggeration to say that the explanation offered is also shared by the average man who reads 2:8 in his A.V. or A.R.V. Salmond, after presenting several grounds in its favor, particularly also this that “the formula κα[/FONT]ὶ[FONT=&quot] το[/FONT]ῦ[FONT=&quot]το might rather favor it, as it often adds to the idea to which it is attached,” finally shies away from it because “salvation is the main idea in the preceding statement,” which fact, of course, the advocates of (3) would not deny but do, indeed, vigorously affirm, but which is not a valid argument against the idea that faith, as well as everything else in salvation, is God’s gift. It is not a valid argument against (3), therefore. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have become convinced that theory (3) is the most logical explanation of the passage in question. Probably the best argument in its favor is this one: If Paul meant to say, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this being saved is not of yourselves,” he would have been guilty of needless repetition — for what else is grace but that which proceeds from God and not from ourselves? — a repetition rendered even more prolix when he now (supposedly) adds, “it, that is, salvation, is the gift of God,” followed by a fourth and fifth repetition, namely, “not of works, for we are his handiwork.” No wonder that Dr. A. Kuyper states, “If the text read, ‘For by grace you have been saved, not of yourselves, it is the work of God,’ it would make some sense. But first to say, ‘By grace you have been saved,’ and then, as if it were something new, to add, ‘and this having been saved is not of yourselves,’ this does not run smoothly but jerks and jolts.… And while with that interpretation everything proceeds by fits and starts and becomes lame and redundant, all is excellent and meaningful when you follow the ancient interpreters of Jesus’ church.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This, it would seem to me also, is the refutation of theory (1) and, to a certain extent, of theory (2). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Basically, however, theories (2) and (3) both stress the same truth, namely, that the credit for the entire process of salvation must be given to God, so that man is deprived of every reason for boasting, which is exactly what Paul says in the words which now follow, namely, 9, 10. not of works, lest anyone should boast. This introduces us to the subject: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Works in relation to our salvation [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1) Rejected [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As a basis for salvation, a ground upon which we can plead, works are rejected. “Not the labors of my hands can fulfil thy law’s demands.” In this connection it must be remembered that the apostle is not thinking exclusively or even mainly of works in fulfilment of the Mosaic law, by means of which the Jew, unconverted to Christ, sought to justify himself. Surely, also by such “works of the law” “no flesh will be justified in his sight” (Rom. 3:20; cf. Gal. 2:16). But in view of the fact that Paul was addressing an audience consisting mostly of Christians from the Gentile world it is clear that he wishes to emphasize that God rejects every work of man, be he Gentile, Jew, or believer in his moments of spiritual eclipse, every work on which any man bases his hope for salvation. If, then, salvation is completely from God, “who spared not his own Son but delivered him up for us all” (Rom. 8:32), every ground of boasting in self is excluded (Rom. 3:27; 4:5; I Cor. 1:31). When the Lord comes in his glory, those at his left hand will do all the boasting (Matt. 25:44; cf. 7:22); those at his right hand will be unable even to recall their good deeds (Matt. 25:37–39).[/FONT][FONT=&quot] .[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](New Testament Commentary, Hendriksen and Kistemaker) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Truly then, a Reformed person has, indeed, a foundation for their belief that this passage teaches a monergistic perspective regarding soteriology. You may disagree, that is fine, but no one's views are ever successfully refuted by the dismissive wave of a hand. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]blessings[/FONT]

 

[RussT]

Thats a great question. Its funny but I have never gotten a good defintion from any place but the scripture.
The only works the bible seems to talk about are works of the Law, which don't justify ROM 3:20, works or deeds of the flesh ROM 8:13 that don't justify either, and finally the work that Christ did on the cross which obiviously does justify us. The work of the cross is the only work I know of that can save us.

The Bible does in fact talk about 'works' other than those you referred to. In Paul's defense to King Agrppa, he makes the statement that he "did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision, but kept declaring... that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance." The performance of deeds appropriate to repentance are part and parcel of the gospel message that Paul proclaimed, along with repentance and turning to God.

In Paul's letter to Titus, he mentions good dees several times. In 2:7, "in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds,...". In 2:13,14 "...Christ Jesus; who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds." In 3:8, "...so that those who have believed God may be careful to engage in good deeds. These things are good and profitable for men."

There are others as well, but these should serve by way of illustration that in fact we believers are to engage in good deeds. And then there is James 2:24 where, "...a man is justified by works." In vs. 21, Abraham was justified by works, and in vs. 25, Rahab was justified by works.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

. And then there is James 2:24 where, "...a man is justified by works." In vs. 21, Abraham was justified by works, and in vs. 25, Rahab was justified by works.

rahab the harlot was justified by her works....

 

[Reformationist]

Do we not recognize that we are wretched sinners, unable to keep the Law, and therefore guilty of violating the whole law? Yes.

And "folks," despite the noxious tripe that certain people continue to spew, such recognition of our wretched state is the direct product of submitting to the authority of God's Law to judge us, just as Paul explains in Romans 7. The only people that acknowledge the binding nature of God's Law are those who recognize the authority of the Lawgiver. The only people that recognize the authority of the Lawgiver, God, are believers. The only people that are believers are those who have received God's gift of faith. This fact has been recognized since the beginning of the Christian faith.

Don't let this self-styled salesman convince you that your faith in God is the product of your own choice to believe. You may very well make a choice to be obedient to God but, if you're honest with yourself, you'll realize that you believed in God before you made a decision to devote your life to Him. In fact, it was your faith in Him that prompted such devotion. From whence did that faith come? If from yourself, why do you have it when others, who have heard the same message, do not? Are you smarter than they? Certainly not. After the Fall of man, saving faith was no longer a constituent element of man's being. Romans 3:10-18 will describe the nature of man's disdain for God if you are unaware.

No "folks," faith comes to you by the gracious dispensation of God. You have it because He, being God, wrought it in you through the preaching of the Word. In short, God makes your nature pliable to the power of His Word by changing your spiritual polarity. He does this by regenerating you.

When you supplicate yourself before the Almighty, try telling God that you're merely thankful that He made it possible for you to save yourself by making the right choice. See how much conviction you have in that belief then. If you're honest before God, as you know you must be, you'll recognize that you have faith because He gave it to you.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

And then there is James 2:24 where, "...a man is justified by works." In vs. 21, Abraham was justified by works, and in vs. 25, Rahab was justified by works.

None of those verses refer to standing justified before God. Our justification before God is on the basis of our faith in the sufficiency of Christ's works. We look to the obedience of Christ and God's gracious imputation of the merit for Christ's obedience to justify us before God.

This is easily understood because, unless we are dellusional, we will not presume to be able to stand before God and be pronounced just on the strength of our works, which are but filthy rags before a holy God. The Bible explicitly tells us that when we have done every single thing the Lord commands of us, we have done only what was expected and have no right to demand of God anything.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

...[FONT=&quot]the credit for the entire process of salvation must be given to God, so that man is deprived of every reason for boasting...[/FONT]

Once again, great post.

 

[epistemaniac]

Reformationist... you said "When you supplicate yourself before the Almighty, try telling God that you're merely thankful that He made it possible for you to save yourself by making the right choice."

Excellent points!!! I never thought of salvation from theat point of view.... in fact, imagining someone coming before God in the attitude that synergism produces makes me think of (Luke 18:11-12) The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.'"
I can just hear someone saying "God I thank you that I was smart enough.... and spiritual enough... to have enough sense to decide to get saved.... that I was not like those sinners who apparently aren't smart ernough or spiritual enough to figure this out...."

blessings

 

[epistemaniac]

Russ, Paul goes to great lengths to prove that Abraham was justified by faith and NOT by his works... because he simply could not have been justified by works of the law as he was justified 430 years before the law was ever given!!!

(Galatians 3:5-17) Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith-- just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"? Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them." Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith." But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"-- so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void."

So, just as Reformationist pointed out.... the reality of a person's genuine faith is justified before others based on what they do.... Abraham was justified by faith before the law ever came because of his faith, but the reality of his faith was justified before men when he proved that he would be willing to sacrifice his son in obedience to God's command....

With James it is easy to see that he is concerned with people claiming to be saved and yet there are no works to back up their claim to salvation... he says that true faith will inevitably, always, produce good works..... because a dead faith is really no faith at all, and is no different from the faith of demons.... (James 2:14) What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” The obvious answer to this rhetorical question is no…..

….. both Paul and James point to Abraham as an example of what it meant to be justified.... but Paul is concerned with the "how" a person is justified.... i.e. by faith and not works.... while James is concerned with the practical aspects of what true faith will result in, namely good works that justify a person's faith as being real..... thus James and Paul have to be speaking of justification in different ways, otherwise the Bible completely contradicts itself on the issue of justification.... with Paul saying that a person can never be justified by the works of the law, while James is saying exactly the opposite, that a person is justified by their works of the law.... but since Paul is explicit in many places regarding the inability of someone to obey the law perfectly so as to be justified (see the above passage from Galatians) by their obedience, that is, that a person is justified by grace through faith and not by works, we take these clearer passages on justification to interpret the other less clear passages which seem to be contradictory in order to reconcile the 2 teachers and teachings. It would be much more difficult to take the position that James’ teaching on justification by works is the norm, and interpret Paul through the lens of this works based justification. As it is, both James and Paul agree that if a person is to be justified by the Law, they must keep it perfectly:
(James 2:10) For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
(Galatians 3:10) For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."
And they both agree that justification is by grace through faith and can not be attained by the works of the law….
(James 2:22-23) You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"-- and he was called a friend of God.
(Galatians 2:16) yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."


blessings