Works

[Tawhano]

I saw a thread which interested me so I copied it down and came back with my answer and it was gone. For whatever reason it disappeared off the thread I decided to go ahead and post my reply in separate threads this is one.

These scriptures were quoted and an interpretation was sought:

Matthew 16:27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
James 2:17-1817 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18-1818 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
James 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Two types of works, works of the law and works of faith. We know from scripture that we are not justified by works of law. Works of the law is simply commandment keeping. Works of faith are actions that proceed from our faith and are manifested in outward signs. We know from scripture that faith gains us access to saving grace. Therefore when we are judged by works it means we are simply judged whether our works are of faith or of the law.

 

[Apex]

I saw a thread which interested me so I copied it down and came back with my answer and it was gone. For whatever reason it disappeared off the thread I decided to go ahead and post my reply in separate threads this is one.

These scriptures were quoted and an interpretation was sought:

Matthew 16:27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
James 2:17-1817 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18-1818 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
James 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Two types of works, works of the law and works of faith. We know from scripture that we are not justified by works of law. Works of the law is simply commandment keeping. Works of faith are actions that proceed from our faith and are manifested in outward signs. We know from scripture that faith gains us access to saving grace. Therefore when we are judged by works it means we are simply judged whether our works are of faith or of the law.

Where does it distinguish between these two types of works?

 

[elman]

I saw a thread which interested me so I copied it down and came back with my answer and it was gone. For whatever reason it disappeared off the thread I decided to go ahead and post my reply in separate threads this is one.

These scriptures were quoted and an interpretation was sought:

Matthew 16:27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
James 2:17-1817 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18-1818 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
James 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Two types of works, works of the law and works of faith. We know from scripture that we are not justified by works of law. Works of the law is simply commandment keeping. Works of faith are actions that proceed from our faith and are manifested in outward signs. We know from scripture that faith gains us access to saving grace. Therefore when we are judged by works it means we are simply judged whether our works are of faith or of the law.

The works that are in obediance to the command to love your neighbor are the works that are connected with grace. Matt 25:31 and following.

 

[gort]

imo, the only works that count are the works done by the inwrought works of the Holy Spirit in man. Those works come from the inside and are seen from the outside.

fwiw

<><

 

[Bond Slave]

I am so saddened to keep seeing the LDS want to argue that works are needed for salvation. If you rely on one part of the law, you have to keep the whole law. That is what grace is about. The only work that is accepted by God is to believe in His Son. Works are a byproduct of a converted heart in it's gratitude for salvation given.

 

[fatboys]

I am so saddened to keep seeing the LDS want to argue that works are needed for salvation. If you rely on one part of the law, you have to keep the whole law. That is what grace is about. The only work that is accepted by God is to believe in His Son. Works are a byproduct of a converted heart in it's gratitude for salvation given.

FB: You know I can understand why you are saddened. As I have stated many times before, the laws that are quoted by BAC's are taken out of the intent. Not on purpose, but to justify that faith without works is all one is needed. The works Paul speaks of and is quoted so often is not the works that Christ required of true believers. The "LAW" is refering to the old testiment law given by Moses. This law was the filthy rags because it could not bring us to perfection as the laws of Christ could. Even so, there are many scriptures that teach obedience to the laws of Christ. By which we will be judged according to how well we did. Misunderstanding what Grace is, can also be a problem since Grace does not give us a free ride. All things are done through the Grace of God, including the atonement. Grace is not the atonement, but the atonement is part of God's Grace.

 

[Tawhano]

Apex said:
Where does it distinguish between these two types of works?

Good question and one in which I have an answer for:

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

When you see two verses which contradict one another it is imperative that you reconcile them. Too many times I have seen people toss scriptures at each other as if one scripture cancels out another, this simply is not so. So how can the two verses above be reconciled except they be talking about two different works, one of law and another of faith? James nails it down for us by showing what works of faith looks like (also see Hebrews 11).

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

There was no law in place that commanded Isaac to offer his son up for sacrifice, this he did by faith. The law was given to Israel much later as a schoolmaster:

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Following the law is not by faith but by obedience.

Romans 9:31-32 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Israel did not learn the lesson in which the law was to teach them. I hope you can see from what I have posted that there is definitely a difference between works of the law and works of faith.

 

[Tawhano]

elman said:
The works that are in obediance to the command to love your neighbor are the works that are connected with grace. Matt 25:31 and following.

So you believe we are saved by works?

 

[Tawhano]

Bond Slave said:
I am so saddened to keep seeing the LDS want to argue that works are needed for salvation.

As you can see from fatboys response they don’t believe they are following that rule. Since coming to this forum I found there to be a lot of religious organizations who practice law keeping but deny they are bound by law. I can't se how you can do that and not be bound by law myself.

 

[Tawhano]

daneel said:
Those works come from the inside and are seen from the outside.

Amen to that. Those are the laws Christians follow.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Abbadon]

If it was works that were required, then there would be no reason to bother: humans don't deserve heaven based solely on works.

 

[A New Dawn]

I am so saddened to keep seeing the LDS want to argue that works are needed for salvation. If you rely on one part of the law, you have to keep the whole law. That is what grace is about. The only work that is accepted by God is to believe in His Son. Works are a byproduct of a converted heart in it's gratitude for salvation given.

It depends on your definition of "works".

And, works being a byproduct of a converted heart makes it no less a requirement for them to be done. True belief will lead to works. Without the works, it is proof that your faith is dead. So, one is not saved by works, but without the works you can't be saved because your faith is dead.

 

[Rescued One]

I saw a thread which interested me so I copied it down and came back with my answer and it was gone. For whatever reason it disappeared off the thread I decided to go ahead and post my reply in separate threads this is one.

These scriptures were quoted and an interpretation was sought:

Matthew 16:27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
James 2:17-1817 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18-1818 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
James 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Two types of works, works of the law and works of faith. We know from scripture that we are not justified by works of law. Works of the law is simply commandment keeping. Works of faith are actions that proceed from our faith and are manifested in outward signs. We know from scripture that faith gains us access to saving grace. Therefore when we are judged by works it means we are simply judged whether our works are of faith or of the law.

AMEN!

 

[Rescued One]

FB: You know I can understand why you are saddened. As I have stated many times before, the laws that are quoted by BAC's are taken out of the intent. Not on purpose, but to justify that faith without works is all one is needed. The works Paul speaks of and is quoted so often is not the works that Christ required of true believers. The "LAW" is refering to the old testiment law given by Moses. This law was the filthy rags because it could not bring us to perfection as the laws of Christ could. Even so, there are many scriptures that teach obedience to the laws of Christ. By which we will be judged according to how well we did. Misunderstanding what Grace is, can also be a problem since Grace does not give us a free ride. All things are done through the Grace of God, including the atonement. Grace is not the atonement, but the atonement is part of God's Grace.

So, are you saying we have to pay for eternal life?

 

[Cassiopeia]

"by their fruits ye shall know them"

Perhaps one can look at works in a way of setting an example. While it is required to believe in Jesus as your Savior for your salvation, a dedicated person as Jenda has stated will show the faithfulness of one's heart through their actions.

Can it not be said that if you are a Christian your actions (works) will show your discipleship? BUT because man is imperfect his actions will always fall short, therefore we are saved by the grace of God and his son's sacrifice.

To focus on the LDS belief that faith without works is dead is to take one little bit of information out of context and blow it out of proportion. I know not one Latter-day Saint who isn't aware that they are saved by Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. Perhaps that is why they try so hard to prove their devotion and gratitude? Such dedication is admirable.

Peace be with you,
Casi

 

[Bond Slave]

"by their fruits ye shall know them"

Perhaps one can look at works in a way of setting an example. While it is required to believe in Jesus as your Savior for your salvation, a dedicated person as Jenda has stated will show the faithfulness of one's heart through their actions.

Can it not be said that if you are a Christian your actions (works) will show your discipleship? BUT because man is imperfect his actions will always fall short, therefore we are saved by the grace of God and his son's sacrifice.

To focus on the LDS belief that faith without works is dead is to take one little bit of information out of context and blow it out of proportion. I know not one Latter-day Saint who isn't aware that they are saved by Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. Perhaps that is why they try so hard to prove their devotion and gratitude? Such dedication is admirable.

Peace be with you,
Casi

Are you sure you left the mormon church? You sure do seem to be the cause fighter for the mormons in every single thread that is posted.

 

[Cassiopeia]

Are you sure you left the mormon church? You sure do seem to be the cause fighter for the mormons in every single thread that is posted.

You have not read every thing I have posted then. Check out my posts in the wiccan and liberal threads. Are you saying there is a cause to fight against the Mormons? I thought we were here to understand each other more fully. Not to prove anyone wrong.

I am a journalist. I believe in journalistic integrity. I belong to a philsophy forum as well. I advocate unbiased debate. I do not like text taken out of context, it goes against my belief in truth. If it can be said that truth exists today I am certainly in pursuit of it.

I will always stand and defend to the death any person's right to say what their faith believes in and I will question anyone who is not actively living that religion, on their ideas and opinions of what that other religion believes.

Having been very active in the LDS faith for 28 years, and having left without bitterness or prejudice I feel my voice only offers to help clarify things. If you find me in agreement with their intrepretations and not yours it stands to reason that I spent alot of time studying it.

I was a student of religion at the University of CapeTown. I would never presume to tell anyone what their faith's doctrine is though I studied many at length. If I see someone attacking another's faith you can bet I will be there to lend a voice of reason if I can. If I do poorly at it, I appologize as I am only human.

Peace be with you,
Casi

 

[Rescued One]

You have not read every thing I have posted then. Check out my posts in the wiccan and liberal threads. Are you saying there is a cause to fight against the Mormons? I thought we were here to understand each other more fully. Not to prove anyone wrong.

I am a journalist. I believe in journalistic integrity. I belong to a philsophy forum as well. I advocate unbiased debate. I do not like text taken out of context, it goes against my belief in truth. If it can be said that truth exists today I am certainly in pursuit of it.

I will always stand and defend to the death any person's right to say what their faith believes in and I will question anyone who is not actively living that religion, on their ideas and opinions of what that other religion believes.

Having been very active in the LDS faith for 28 years, and having left without bitterness or prejudice I feel my voice only offers to help clarify things. If you find me in agreement with their intrepretations and not yours it stands to reason that I spent alot of time studying it.

I was a student of religion at the University of CapeTown. I would never presume to tell anyone what their faith's doctrine is though I studied many at length. If I see someone attacking another's faith you can bet I will be there to lend a voice of reason if I can. If I do poorly at it, I appologize as I am only human.

Peace be with you,
Casi

The fight has never been against Mormons. It is against false doctrine.

 

[Cassiopeia]

The fight has never been against Mormons. It is against false doctrine.

I didn't think that was the purpose of this forum

 

[Rescued One]

"by their fruits ye shall know them"

No one disputes that, yet fruits are rotten if you are preaching a false gospel.

Perhaps one can look at works in a way of setting an example. While it is required to believe in Jesus as your Savior for your salvation, a dedicated person as Jenda has stated will show the faithfulness of one's heart through their actions.

No argument.

Can it not be said that if you are a Christian your actions (works) will show your discipleship? BUT because man is imperfect his actions will always fall short, therefore we are saved by the grace of God and his son's sacrifice.

No argument.

To focus on the LDS belief that faith without works is dead is to take one little bit of information out of context and blow it out of proportion.

It is not blown out of proportion at all. LDS believe that obedience to the laws and ordinances of the LDS church are a requirement for eternal life with God the Father.

I know not one Latter-day Saint who isn't aware that they are saved by Jesus's sacrifice on the cross.

I have never met one yet. All of the LDS I have known believed that the Atonement took place in the Garden of Gethsemane. Furthermore, they believed that Christ paid for all of mankind's immortality including unrepentant, unbelieving humans. In order to have eternal life, a person has to prove his own worthiness by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the LDS church.

Perhaps that is why they try so hard to prove their devotion and gratitude? Such dedication is admirable.

Maybe they're just climbing the ladder to see what's at the top.

John 10
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.