Works

[Rescued One]

As a matter of fact, I know many who claim to be born again whose lives speak otherwise. Funny how that "works" thing really mucks up the works.

Anyone can claim to be one. People know how to lie, don't they? Other people are deceived.

 

[Rescued One]

from more than one mormon implies you consider me a mormon.

I believe you misunderstood him. The way I read it, he is saying that more than one Mormon told him the Atonement happened in the Garden of Gethsemane.

 

[A New Dawn]

Anyone can claim to be one. People know how to lie, don't they? Other people are deceived.

I don't think it is the other people who are deceived, it is the person who is making the claim who is deceived. And he is deceived because he was told something that wasn't true. And that is that works play no part.

 

[Rescued One]

FB: The atonement begin in the Garden and ended after the resurrection.

Ezra Taft Benson wrote that "it was in Gethsemane that Jesus took on Himself the sins of the world, in Gethsemane that His pain was equivalent to the cumulative burden of all men, in Gethsemane that He descended below all things so that all could repent and come to Him" (LDS Church News, 1 June 1991, p. 14).

Do you know more than your prophet did?

 

[Rescued One]

I don't think it is the other people who are deceived, it is the person who is making the claim who is deceived. And he is deceived because he was told something that wasn't true. And that is that works play no part.

Now you're suggesting that the Bible isn't translated correctly. We are saved by grace, not by works. If it be works, it is no more grace. You can't have it both ways.

 

[A New Dawn]

Now you're suggesting that the Bible isn't translated correctly. We are saved by grace, not by works. If it be works, it is no more grace. You can't have it both ways.

Please read my posts before accusing me of things I haven't said. I did not say that we are saved by works. I said works play a part. I stated earlier which part they play. Go back and read it.

 

[RufustheRed]

Odd in the 28 years I attended no one worded this this way. Especially the part about the Garden of Gethsemane. That would have to be someone's personal opinion and not from doctrine.

A LOT of LDS member's opinion. (Just ask fatboys) Why don't you poll of the active LDS members just on this board? Chances are the majority believe that it was Jesus shed blood at Gethsemane that purged us from our sin. The ironic part of the entire passage is that that it never says that Jesus paid for our sins in the garden. In fact, the scriptures state that Jesus' SWEAT was LIKE large droplets of blood. It does not state that he bled in the garden. It is scripture twisting 101.

Here is the official LDS statement of redemptive bleeding of Jesus Christ in Gethsemane.

"BD Atonement "
Jesus Christ, as the Only Begotten Son of God and the only sinless person to live on this earth, was the only one capable of making an atonement for mankind. By his selection and foreordination in the Grand Council before the world was formed, his divine Sonship, his sinless life, the shedding of his blood in the garden of Gethsemane, his death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, he made a perfect atonement for all mankind.

Rules of this board prohibit the posting of the link, but suffice it to say it is the offical web site of their church. If you want the link, PM me and I'll provide it.


Sven

 

[Rescued One]

It depends on your definition of "works".

And, works being a byproduct of a converted heart makes it no less a requirement for them to be done. True belief will lead to works. Without the works, it is proof that your faith is dead. So, one is not saved by works, but without the works you can't be saved because your faith is dead.

We are saved by God's grace through faith without works.

If it be works, it is no more grace. Jesus paid the debt. You can't steal the debt back just so you can pay part of it yourself.

Acts 20
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

 

[RufustheRed]

The Mosaic law was never given to bring people to perfection. It was given to bring Israel a law that would prepare them to live the laws of Christ. Compared to the laws of Christ the works of obedience to the Mosaic law, are as filthy rags because they were never meant to bring us to perfection. Christ lived the laws he gave to us, which made him perfect. If we live all these laws, we would become perfect.

Now I did not mean that God's laws were filthy rags, but our works at living the Mosaic law is.

Then please, please quit saying that God's laws are filthy rags. There is nothing filthy about God. This is not the first time you have made the same claim about God's laws.

Do you actually believe that Jesus was at one time NOT perfect? That he had to earn his perfection? That concept certainly disagrees with the reason for the virgin birth.

Sven

 

[RufustheRed]

FB: The atonement begin in the Garden and ended after the resurrection.

Please show me the passage that states that Jesus shed blood in the garden of Gethsemane.

Sven

 

[Cassiopeia]

Anyone can claim to be one. People know how to lie, don't they? Other people are deceived.

In any case just the fact that that is how I feel it is being said means that I am needing a time out...

so laters ppls

Blessed be

 

[Cassiopeia]

A LOT of LDS member's opinion. (Just ask fatboys) Why don't you poll of the active LDS members just on this board? Chances are the majority believe that it was Jesus shed blood at Gethsemane that purged us from our sin. The ironic part of the entire passage is that that it never says that Jesus paid for our sins in the garden. In fact, the scriptures state that Jesus' SWEAT was LIKE large droplets of blood. It does not state that he bled in the garden. It is scripture twisting 101.

Here is the official LDS statement of redemptive bleeding of Jesus Christ in Gethsemane.

"BD Atonement "
Jesus Christ, as the Only Begotten Son of God and the only sinless person to live on this earth, was the only one capable of making an atonement for mankind. By his selection and foreordination in the Grand Council before the world was formed, his divine Sonship, his sinless life, the shedding of his blood in the garden of Gethsemane, his death on the cross and subsequent bodily resurrection from the grave, he made a perfect atonement for all mankind.

Rules of this board prohibit the posting of the link, but suffice it to say it is the offical web site of their church. If you want the link, PM me and I'll provide it.


Sven

Actually I don't need to poll anyone or find out what they experienced because I am not speaking for anyone other than myself. And personally I don't care about where it started or didn't start. It doesn't matter to me...I said it was ODD because I Hadn't ever heard of it in 28 years ! SHEESH! I wasn't saying she hadn't been told that I SAID I never was told it that way. OK?


CHeers

 

[RufustheRed]

As a matter of fact, I know many who claim to be born again whose lives speak otherwise. Funny how that "works" thing really mucks up the works.

Works are for what purpose? To show other people their Christianity or to show God? Do you believe that God know a person's heart? Perhaps He is a better judge of each individual than we are. You think?

Now back to the original thought. To phrase it in another way, do you know of any people who claim to be Christians, but deny being born again?

Sven

 

[A New Dawn]

We are saved by God's grace through faith without works.

If it be works, it is no more grace. Jesus paid the debt. You can't steal the debt back just so you can pay part of it yourself.

Acts 20
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

You can try to justify it all you want. The scriptures clearly state that faith without works is dead.

 

[A New Dawn]

Works are for what purpose? To show other people their Christianity or to show God? Do you believe that God know a person's heart? Perhaps He is a better judge of each individual than we are. You think?

Sven

Works aren't to show anybody anything. They are a product of a changed heart. If your heart is not changed, all the works are for is show.

 

[RufustheRed]

Actually I don't need to poll anyone or find out what they experienced because I am not speaking for anyone other than myself. And personally I don't care about where it started or didn't start. It doesn't matter to me...I said it was ODD because I Hadn't ever heard of it in 28 years ! SHEESH! I wasn't saying she hadn't been told that I SAID I never was told it that way. OK?

SHEESH! Why don't we get defensive? Your post implied that after twenty-eight years you had never heard of the above doctrine. By merely saying that, you expressed (1) an interest and (2) a covert implication that the other poster didn't know what he/she was talking about. My post to you was merely to inform you, not to be critical. If you aren't or weren't interesed, you shouldn't have indicated that you might be. Next time, just inform us if you are just trying to argumentative or have a genuine interest in something that you may have missed in your twenty-eight years of being an active member of Smith's church.

Sven

 

[Rescued One]

You can try to justify it all you want. The scriptures clearly state that faith without works is dead.

The works come as a result of being saved by Christ's blood and regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Rescued One]

Works aren't to show anybody anything. They are a product of a changed heart. If your heart is not changed, all the works are for is show.

And just who changes that heart?

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

 

[Cassiopeia]

SHEESH! Why don't we get defensive? Your post implied that after twenty-eight years you had never heard of the above doctrine. By merely saying that, you expressed (1) an interest and (2) a covert implication that the other poster didn't know what he/she was talking about. My post to you was merely to inform you, not to be critical. If you aren't or weren't interesed, you shouldn't have indicated that you might be. Next time, just inform us if you are just trying to argumentative or have a genuine interest in something that you may have missed in your twenty-eight years of being an active member of Smith's church.

Sven

Look you would be defensive too if you were in my shoes. I came to this forum seeking peaceable discussions and information exchanges. I have been accused of many things. And all I wanted was a place to share things where it was only sharing not judging. Maybe you have had alot of people bashing your faith...maybe the mormons have too. I just don't think that is what this forum says it is for. It states it is to know each other better.

If I have offended anyone I am TRUELY sorry but I have been called everything from a fence sitter to a wolf in sheeps clothing...I have been told my views are INSULTING. Enough. I am sure you won't miss my imput

Bye

 

[A New Dawn]

And just who changes that heart?

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

I see no point in answering your question since you already answered it in the post just above the one I am responding to.

Or is this really 20 questions to see if I read your posts?