Works

[Cassiopeia]

I have never met one yet. All of the LDS I have known believed that the Atonement took place in the Garden of Gethsemane. Furthermore, they believed that Christ paid for all of mankind's immortality including unrepentant, unbelieving humans. In order to have eternal life, a person has to prove his own worthiness by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the LDS church.

Odd in the 28 years I attended no one worded this this way. Especially the part about the Garden of Gethsemane. That would have to be someone's personal opinion and not from doctrine. My understanding of the atonement was that he paid the price for everyone. Didn't he? Now if someone accepts it or doesn't is the point is it not? As for proving worthiness that is a frivilous idea. All one can do is live a good life to the best of their abilities according to the dicates of their own conscience and personal beliefs. LDS are doing no harm in following their beliefs. If someone disagrees with them, there is no way someone is forced to follow any religion.

Maybe they're just climbing the ladder to see what's at the top.

Now now, let's not be sarcastic. Their hearts in the right place.

 

[Rescued One]

Odd in the 28 years I attended no one worded this this way. Especially the part about the Garden of Gethsemane. That would have to be someone's personal opinion and not from doctrine. My understanding of the atonement was that he paid the price for everyone.

LDS Article of Faith
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Don't chop it up and throw away the phrase "by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

Now when you read the following, please look up the scriptural references cited:

Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one’s mortal probation. (D. & C. 20:29; 2 Ne. 9:23-24.) ... [D. & C. = Doctrine & Covenants, one of the books considered to be Mormon Scripture; 2 Ne. = 2 Nephi, one of the books contained in the Book of Mormon]

Even those in the celestial kingdom, however, who do not go on to exaltation, will have immortality only and not eternal life. Along with those of the telestial and terrestrial worlds they will be “ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.” They will live “separately and singly” in an unmarried state “without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity.” (D. & C. 132:16-17.)

Salvation in its true and full meaning is synonymous with exaltation or eternal life and consists in gaining an inheritance in the highest of the three heavens within the celestial kingdom. With few exceptions this is the salvation of which the scriptures speak. It is the salvation which the saints seek. It is of this which the Lord says, “There is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.” (D. & C. 6:13.) This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity, and those who obtain it are gods. (D. & C. 131:1-4; 132.)

Full salvation is attained by virtue of knowledge, truth, righteousness, and all true principles. Many conditions must exist in order to make such salvation available to men. Without the atonement, the gospel, the priesthood, and the sealing power, there would be no salvation. Without continuous revelation, the ministering of angels, the working of miracles, the prevalence of gifts of the spirit, there would be no salvation. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 1-350.)
http://www.midwestoutreach.org/journals/mormon_view.html

LDS are doing no harm in following their beliefs. If someone disagrees with them, there is no way someone is forced to follow any religion.

Why go out in the name of Christianity, only to confuse the hearers?

Galatians 1
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[Rescued One]

I didn't think that was the purpose of this forum

Discussion & Debate > Unorthodox Theology.

Would there be any debate if we agreed on doctrine? I came here to debate false doctrine and to brush up on my understanding of the Bible.

 

[Fit4Christ]

Discussion & Debate > Unorthodox Theology.

Would there be any debate if we agreed on doctrine? I came here to debate false doctrine and to brush up on my understanding of the Bible.

And you do a mighty fine job of it GWIT!

 

[Rescued One]

Odd in the 28 years I attended no one worded this this way. Especially the part about the Garden of Gethsemane. That would have to be someone's personal opinion and not from doctrine.

... The evidence for Jesus' extreme agony in Gethsemane is buttressed by a prophecy in the Book of Mormon and a statement by the resurrected Savior recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants. About 125 B.C., a Book of Mormon king, Benjamin, recounted in an important address a prophecy of the coming messiah spoken to him by an angel during the previous night. Concerning the Messiah's mortal experience, the angel declared that "he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people" (Mosiah 3:7). The Doctrine and Covenants gives the following poignant words of the resurrected Jesus: "Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; …which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit" (D&C 19:16, 18).

Modern LDS leaders have emphasized that Jesus' most challenging experience came in Gethsemane. Speaking in a general conference of the Church in 1982, Marion G. Romney, a member of the First Presidency, observed that Jesus suffered "the pains of all men, which he did, principally, in Gethsemane, the scene of his great agony" (Ensign 12 [May 1982]:6). Church President Ezra Taft Benson wrote that "it was in Gethsemane that Jesus took on Himself the sins of the world, in Gethsemane that His pain was equivalent to the cumulative burden of all men, in Gethsemane that He descended below all things so that all could repent and come to Him" (Benson, p. 7). (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, edited by Daniel H. Ludlow, New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, 1992, p. 542)

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/gethsemaneandchristsbloodinldsreferences.htm?FACTNet

 

[Rescued One]

And you do a mighty fine job of it GWIT!

Only by the grace of God can I make a small contribution to spreading His truth.

 

[RufustheRed]

FB: You know I can understand why you are saddened. As I have stated many times before, the laws that are quoted by BAC's are taken out of the intent.

Just a couple or three comments, FB. One, there is no one who is a Christian who is not a "BAC." Jesus said that we MUST be born again in order to be considered His follower. Is that not what the "BA" stands for in "BAC?" - "Born Again Christian" Do you know of any Christians who are not born again? In my parlance, that is a oxymoron.

Not on purpose, but to justify that faith without works is all one is needed. The works Paul speaks of and is quoted so often is not the works that Christ required of true believers. The "LAW" is refering to the old testiment law given by Moses. This law was the filthy rags because it could not bring us to perfection as the laws of Christ could.

We have discused this before, to which you wouldn't respond. You insist that God's law was filthy rags. I am afraid that you totally misunderstand the power of God. His law, Mosiac, if you insist, was not and to this day, is not filthy rags. Mankind's WORKS are as filthy rags, therefore, not salvific. Where do you get the audacity to proclaim the law of God filthy? Perchance is that what your religion preaches/believes or is it only your unbiased opinion?

Sven

 

[Bond Slave]

You have not read every thing I have posted then. Check out my posts in the wiccan and liberal threads. Are you saying there is a cause to fight against the Mormons? I thought we were here to understand each other more fully. Not to prove anyone wrong.

I am a journalist. I believe in journalistic integrity. I belong to a philsophy forum as well. I advocate unbiased debate. I do not like text taken out of context, it goes against my belief in truth. If it can be said that truth exists today I am certainly in pursuit of it.

I will always stand and defend to the death any person's right to say what their faith believes in and I will question anyone who is not actively living that religion, on their ideas and opinions of what that other religion believes.

Having been very active in the LDS faith for 28 years, and having left without bitterness or prejudice I feel my voice only offers to help clarify things. If you find me in agreement with their intrepretations and not yours it stands to reason that I spent alot of time studying it.

I was a student of religion at the University of CapeTown. I would never presume to tell anyone what their faith's doctrine is though I studied many at length. If I see someone attacking another's faith you can bet I will be there to lend a voice of reason if I can. If I do poorly at it, I appologize as I am only human.

Peace be with you,
Casi

The very idea that you need to go to an active mormon for truth about what they teach is ludicrous. I was mormon for more then half my life. I understand the church fully. The mormon church is not steeped in truthful history but in lawlessness and coverups. Not that they are the same but would you go to the aryan brotherhood for a factual look into the atrocities of the holocaust or someone who lived through it and came out the other side?

 

[Bond Slave]

Now now, let's not be sarcastic. Their hearts in the right place.

Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

 

[Fit4Christ]

Now now, let's not be sarcastic. Their hearts in the right place.

But where is their heart? Tied up in obediences to laws and false doctrines? Or only focused on the grace and mercy that God gave us through Christ?

 

[Wrigley]

Odd in the 28 years I attended no one worded this this way. Especially the part about the Garden of Gethsemane.

Stick around. I've read that many times. From more than one mormon.

 

[fatboys]

Just a couple or three of comments, FB. One, there is no one who is a Christian who is not a "BAC." Jesus said that we MUST be born again in order to be considered His follower. Is that not what the "BA" stands for in "BAC?" - "Born Again Christian" Do you know of any Christians who are not born again? In my parlance, that is a oxymoron.




We have discused this before, to which you wouldn't respond. You insist that God's law was filthy rags. I am afraid that you totally misunderstand the power of God. His law, Mosiac, if you insist, was not and to this day, is not filthy rags. Mankind's WORKS are as filthy rags, therefore, not salvific. Where do you get the audacity to proclaim the law of God filthy? Perchance is that what your religion reaches/believes or is it only your unbiased opinion?

Sven

The Mosaic law was never given to bring people to perfection. It was given to bring Israel a law that would prepare them to live the laws of Christ. Compared to the laws of Christ the works of obedience to the Mosaic law, are as filthy rags because they were never meant to bring us to perfection. Christ lived the laws he gave to us, which made him perfect. If we live all these laws, we would become perfect.

Now I did not mean that God's laws were filthy rags, but our works at living the Mosaic law is.

 

[fatboys]

Odd in the 28 years I attended no one worded this this way. Especially the part about the Garden of Gethsemane. That would have to be someone's personal opinion and not from doctrine. My understanding of the atonement was that he paid the price for everyone. Didn't he? Now if someone accepts it or doesn't is the point is it not? As for proving worthiness that is a frivilous idea. All one can do is live a good life to the best of their abilities according to the dicates of their own conscience and personal beliefs. LDS are doing no harm in following their beliefs. If someone disagrees with them, there is no way someone is forced to follow any religion.



Now now, let's not be sarcastic. Their hearts in the right place.

FB: The atonement begin in the Garden and ended after the resurrection.

 

[Cassiopeia]

But where is their heart? Tied up in obediences to laws and false doctrines? Or only focused on the grace and mercy that God gave us through Christ?

That is for God to judge not man.

 

[Cassiopeia]

Stick around. I've read that many times. From more than one mormon.

If you wish to call me a mormon that would be a gross misrepresentation of what I actually am and some may even say an insult to those who are living the religion. I rather follow my own path.

K? Thanks bye bye now

 

[Wrigley]

If you wish to call me a mormon that would be a gross misrepresentation of what I actually am and some may even say an insult to those who are living the religion. I rather follow my own path.

K? Thanks bye bye now

I didn't call you a mormon.

K?

 

[Cassiopeia]

I didn't call you a mormon.

K?

Stick around. I've read that many times. From more than one mormon.

from more than one mormon implies you consider me a mormon.

 

[A New Dawn]

Just a couple or three of comments, FB. One, there is no one who is a Christian who is not a "BAC." Jesus said that we MUST be born again in order to be considered His follower. Is that not what the "BA" stands for in "BAC?" - "Born Again Christian" Do you know of any Christians who are not born again? In my parlance, that is a oxymoron.

Sven

As a matter of fact, I know many who claim to be born again whose lives speak otherwise. Funny how that "works" thing really mucks up the works.

 

[A New Dawn]

And you do a mighty fine job of it GWIT!

Well, that's a matter of opinion.

 

[Wrigley]

from more than one mormon implies you consider me a mormon.

No, it doesn't.