Works

[Apex]

Matthew 16:27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Revelation 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
James 2:17-1817 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18-1818 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
James 2:24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I figured I repost these agian considering some people are just completley ignoring them.

 

[Tawhano]

Apex said:
I figured I repost these agian considering some people are just completley ignoring them.

I don’t see your input anywhere. Explain to me why you posted these scriptures again but fail to comment on my post explaining what these scriptures mean. The works which justify us are not works of law keeping. Two different things.

Another thing that people seem to ignore is that whenever it talks of works it says justified never saved. When it speaks of grace it speaks of saved. Do you suppose there might be a difference between being justified and being saved?

 

[Apex]

I don’t see your input anywhere. Explain to me why you posted these scriptures again but fail to comment on my post explaining what these scriptures mean.

I am not at liberty to say why I posted these scritputures as this site prohibits me from doing so. You know, the whole no free speach thing.

Another thing that people seem to ignore is that whenever it talks of works it says justified never saved. When it speaks of grace it speaks of saved. Do you suppose there might be a difference between being justified and being saved?

I dont dissagree with you here. But there is a very important part in Revelation 20:"...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
We are judged acording to our works. That tells me that works play a pretty important part of getting into heaven.

 

[Tawhano]

Apex said:
I am not at liberty to say why I posted these scritputures as this site prohibits me from doing so. You know, the whole no free speach thing.

Yeah right.

Apex said:
We are judged acording to our works. That tells me that works play a pretty important part of getting into heaven.

This tells me that you didn’t really read what I had to say.

 

[Fit4Christ]

That is for God to judge not man.

Are you God? My comment was in response to yours in saying that their heart was in the right place. Sounds like you were making a judgement there, doesn't it? I'm only trying to clarify just where you think that "right place" is??

 

[unbound]

I dont dissagree with you here. But there is a very important part in Revelation 20:"...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
We are judged acording to our works. That tells me that works play a pretty important part of getting into heaven.

And specifically what "works" are the ones being at subject here? Baptism for the dead?

Why is it Mormons think they need to baptize dead people by proxy when they also maintain that the "laying on of hands" is neccesary?

Perhaps you can explain to me how "laying on of hands" can be of any effect, when the body of the person being baptised is 6 ft in the ground, or maybe even cremated?

You believe that you can give baptisms by laying on the hands, by proxy, but yet the priesthood can not be?

If we follow this same logic , we can now see that Christ can give any one of us the "keys" of priesthood, all without any kind of "laying on of hands", but through proxy, from heaven.

But of course, if your religion is claiming exclusivity to the Kingdom of God, then it naturally follows that you would not understand the hipocrosy of this doctrine.Such things are to be expected from an organization claiming to be the one "true church".

This is why I believe the LDS church to be such an intrusive organization. Nothing is off limits, they even try to push thier religion off onto dead people.

 

[skylark1]

Another thing that people seem to ignore is that whenever it talks of works it says justified never saved. When it speaks of grace it speaks of saved. Do you suppose there might be a difference between being justified and being saved?

Hi Tawhano,

That is a good question. Could you post some of the scripture that you think relates works and justification? I'm not sure what you had in mind.

Justification is a legal term. It describes the act by which a judge acquits an accused person. A person is declared to be in right relationship with the law, but not made righteous.



William Barclay wrote:

He uses a metaphor from the law courts which we call justification. This metaphor thinks of man on trial before God. The Greek word which is translated to justify is diakioun. All Greek verbs which end in -oun mean, not to make someone something, but to treat, to reckon, to account him as something. If an innocent man appears before a judge then to treat him as innocent is to acquit him. But the point about a man's relationship to God is that he is utterly guilty, and yet God, in his amazing mercy, treats him, accounts him as if he were innocent. This is what justification means.

When Paul says that "God justifies the ungodly," he means that God treats the ungodly as if he had been a good man. That is what shocked the Jews to the core of their being. To them to treat the bad man as if he was good was the sign of a wicked judge.

​

 

[Tawhano]

skylark1 said:
That is a good question. Could you post some of the scripture that you think relates works and justification? I'm not sure what you had in mind.

Justification is a legal term. It describes the act by which a judge acquits an accused person. A person is declared to be in right relationship with the law, but not made righteous.

Yes, that is how I understand it too. My first and seventh post contains the scriptures that relate works and justification. I’m not sure what you required of me to clarify what I believe, perhaps after reading those posts again you might ask for further clarification. I don’t believe we are saved by works, just justified or imputed righteousness where there is no righteousness.

 

[Rescued One]

Romans 5
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Southern Baptist Convention says:

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.


Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.


Romans 5
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Rescued One]

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Only before men does he have something to show.

 

[gort]

Apex quote:

I dont dissagree with you here. But there is a very important part in Revelation 20:"...and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
We are judged acording to our works. That tells me that works play a pretty important part of getting into heaven.

Apex, notice the verse said they were judged by their works. Even the morally upright will be judged to the lake of fire if Jesus was not their Lord and Savior.

Works plays no part whatsoever in "getting into heaven". It is all of Gods Grace and Mercy.


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[skylark1]

Yes, that is how I understand it too. My first and seventh post contains the scriptures that relate works and justification. I’m not sure what you required of me to clarify what I believe, perhaps after reading those posts again you might ask for further clarification. I don’t believe we are saved by works, just justified or imputed righteousness where there is no righteousness.

Thanks. I think that I misunderstood what you meant by:

Another thing that people seem to ignore is that whenever it talks of works it says justified never saved.
​

I think that post #7 clarified. Are you saying that our works don't justify us, but that genuine faith will be evidenced by deeds?

 

[elman]

So you believe we are saved by works?

No-not what I said or believe. We are saved by grace which will not be there to save us, if we do not love our neighbor.

 

[Tawhano]

skylark1 said:
Are you saying that our works don't justify us, but that genuine faith will be evidenced by deeds?

No, we are justified by our works but only works of faith not works of the law. Exactly, if we have faith and that faith is alive it will produce works of faith which justifies us.

 

[Tawhano]

elman said:
No-not what I said or believe.

Sorry, I’m not clear on what you are trying to say.

 

[Rescued One]

No-not what I said or believe. We are saved by grace which will not be there to save us, if we do not love our neighbor.

Grace is God's mercy, is it not? He saves us, but we don't deserve His mercy. We wouldn't need God's mercy if we weren't falling short of deserving it.

 

[Rescued One]

No, we are justified by our works but only works of faith not works of the law. Exactly, if we have faith and that faith is alive it will produce works of faith which justifies us.

How can we be justified by any works? The only way to do that is to be perfect. The only way to have perfection is to accept Christ and have His righteousness imputed to us!

 

[Rescued One]

Are you saying that our works don't justify us, but that genuine faith will be evidenced by deeds?

This I believe.

 

[skylark1]

No, we are justified by our works but only works of faith not works of the law. Exactly, if we have faith and that faith is alive it will produce works of faith which justifies us.

I like the way that John Gill reconciles James claim that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone (James 2:24), and Paul's claim that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law (Romans 3:28). He writes that Paul speaks of justification before God, while James speaks of justification before men... the fruits of justification. It is a little long, but I think that it is worth reading:

and not by faith only...

or as without works, or a mere historical faith, which being without works is dead, of which the apostle is speaking; and therefore can bear no testimony to a man's justification; hence it appears, that the Apostle James does not contradict the Apostle Paul in (Romans 3:28) since they speak not of the same sort of faith; the one speaks of a mere profession of faith, a dead and lifeless one; the other of a true faith, which has Christ, and his righteousness, for its object, and works by love, and produces peace, joy, and comfort in the soul. Moreover, the Apostle Paul speaks of justification before God; and James speaks of it as it is known by its fruits unto men; the one speaks of a justification of their persons, in the sight of God; the other of the justification and approbation of their cause, their conduct, and their faith before men, and the vindication of them from all charges and calumnies of hypocrisy, and the like; the one speaks of good works as causes, which he denies to have any place as such in justification; and the other speaks of them as effects flowing from faith, and showing the truth of it, and so of justification by it; the one had to do with legalists and self-justiciaries, who sought righteousness not by faith, but by the works of the law, whom he opposed; and the other had to do with libertines, who cried up faith and knowledge, but had no regard to a religious life and conversation; and these things considered will tend to reconcile the two apostles about this business, but as effects declaring it; for the best works are imperfect, and cannot be a righteousness justifying in the sight of God, and are unprofitable in this respect; for when they are performed in the best manner, they are no other than what it is a man's duty to perform, and therefore cannot justify from sin he has committed: and besides, justification in this sense would frustrate the grace of God, make void the death of Christ, and encourage boasting in men. Good works do not go before justification as causes or conditions, but follow it as fruits and effects:



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[Tawhano]

GodsWordisTrue
How can we be justified by any works?

James covers this in detail. I've explained this in several of my posts.