Works Required to Prove Faith

[saintboniface]

Specifically, can you tell us which works are essential and which are not?

No. Can you tell me specifically "how much" faith is necessary for salvation? Can you tell me "which works" demonstrate faith?

Works are peanuts. Faith is peanut butter. Salvation is a peanut butter sandwich.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No. Can you tell me specifically "how much" faith is necessary for salvation? Can you tell me "which works" demonstrate faith?

Works are peanuts. Faith is peanut butter. Salvation is a peanut butter sandwich.

What is the bread that holds the peanut butter in place?

 

[Albion]

No. Can you tell me specifically "how much" faith is necessary for salvation? Can you tell me "which works" demonstrate faith?

It's interesting that you should ask that question, because I've repeatedly asked those here who insist that works save us, to tell us all how many of them, which kind, etc.--and no one person has been able to answer. Of course, those of us who do not believe in "works righteousness," as it's called, haven't any reason to answer such a question. But you who make it the essence of your ideas concerning your own salvation ought to at least KNOW what it's all about, how it works, and so on. At least, one would think so.

For we who believe in salvation by Faith in Christ's atoning work on the Cross, it's pretty simple to explain what our belief is.

And it's not a "how much" proposition, as you sarcastically put it. Faith either is genuine or it's not; it isn't an accumulation of acts that are intended to play up to God until he decides we've earned our place in heaven.

 

[saintboniface]

It's interesting that you should ask that question, because I've repeatedly asked those here who insist that works save us, to tell us all how many of them, which kind, etc.--and no one person has been able to answer. Of course, those of us who do not believe in "works righteousness," as it's called, haven't any reason to answer such a question. But you who make it the essence of your ideas concerning your own salvation ought to at least KNOW what it's all about, how it works, and so on. At least, one would think so.

For we who believe in salvation by Faith in Christ's atoning work on the Cross, it's pretty simple to explain what our belief is.

And it's not a "how much" proposition, as you sarcastically put it. Faith either is genuine or it's not; it isn't an accumulation of acts that are intended to play up to God until he decides we've earned our place in heaven.

Your question doesn't strengthen your position at all. Why should I know precisely how much work is required for salvation? God is the judge. We live our lives and God judges when we die. We know what it is about and how it works.

Your question can be turned around without sarcasm. What is genuine faith and what isn't? You should know this since it is your system. What works demonstrate faith and what works don't. How many works are required to demonstrate a genuine faith?

 

[Albion]

Your question doesn't strengthen your position at all. Why should I know precisely how much work is required for salvation? God is the judge. We live our lives and God judges when we die. We know what it is about and how it works.

First, I didn't say anything about "precisely." But 'nice try' on your part.

My point is that NOTHING seems to be known by the advocates of works righteousness when it comes to one of the most critical issues in every Christian's life. They tell us reformed Christians that we are to be saved by our actions but cannot say anything more about it--not how many, what kind, or anything specific. Yet they propose that Christians live their whole lives not knowing whether they've done enough to be saved...and they also don't seem to know what it is that they are supposed to be doing!

I'd think that any reasonable person would find that to be a peculiar perspective. You can indeed say, as you have, that it doesn't matter if you are operating totally in the dark, but still, it's strange, to say the least, that if we reformed Christians say that we trust the Lord and try to live our lives in a Christlike way, that this is supposedly not good enough. Well, then why shouldn't we ask "What IS good enough then?"

"Dunno" is your answer.

Your question can be turned around without sarcasm. What is genuine faith and what isn't? You should know this since it is your system. What works demonstrate faith and what works don't. How many works are required to demonstrate a genuine faith?

Actually, it can't be turned around like that. We can indeed tell you what Faith is. You cannot tell us what kinds of works count towards salvation, how many are needed, which rank higher than others, or anything of the sort.

And as for "how many works are required to demonstrate a genuine faith?" we aren't concerned with how many "demonstrations," since our salvation is not dependent upon achieving some sort of quota of works. They just naturally follow from a real faith, that's all.

 

[saintboniface]

and they also don't seem to know what it is that they are supposed to be doing!

we reformed Christians say that we trust the Lord and try to live our lives in a Christlike way, that this is supposedly not good enough.

To name a few: feed the hungry; give drink to the thirsty; clothe the naked; harbour the harbourless; visit the sick; ransom the captive; bury the dead; instruct the ignorant; counsel the doubtful; admonish sinners; bear wrongs patiently; forgive offences willingly; comfort the afflicted; and pray for the living and the dead.

What do you mean you "try to live our lives in a Christlike way."? If you try but fail isn't your failure ultimately due to disbelief? We both agree that fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, and the unrighteous will not have salvation - their deeds must demonstrate their disbelief. But how about the occasional drunkard or the occasional unrighteous Christian? Do they have genuine faith? You just noted that reformed Christians "try" - implying that they sometimes sin or sometimes fail to do good deeds. Doesn't that demonstrate that they don't have genuine faith? Where is the dividing line between the unrighteous and those who are trying to be righteous but sometimes fail and are unrighteous?

 

[Targaryen]

Works are peanuts. Faith is peanut butter. Salvation is a peanut butter sandwich.

I like that...I like that a lot.

 

[bbbbbbb]

To name a few: feed the hungry; give drink to the thirsty; clothe the naked; harbour the harbourless; visit the sick; ransom the captive; bury the dead; instruct the ignorant; counsel the doubtful; admonish sinners; bear wrongs patiently; forgive offences willingly; comfort the afflicted; and pray for the living and the dead.

What do you mean you "try to live our lives in a Christlike way."? If you try but fail isn't your failure ultimately due to disbelief? We both agree that fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, and the unrighteous will not have salvation - their deeds must demonstrate their disbelief. But how about the occasional drunkard or the occasional unrighteous Christian? Do they have genuine faith? You just noted that reformed Christians "try" - implying that they sometimes sin or sometimes fail to do good deeds. Doesn't that demonstrate that they don't have genuine faith? Where is the dividing line between the unrighteous and those who are trying to be righteous but sometimes fail and are unrighteous?

My brother must be a great Christian. He is a funeral director.

 

[Albion]

To name a few: feed the hungry; give drink to the thirsty; clothe the naked; harbour the harbourless; visit the sick; ransom the captive; bury the dead; instruct the ignorant; counsel the doubtful; admonish sinners; bear wrongs patiently; forgive offences willingly; comfort the afflicted; and pray for the living and the dead.

Yes, I suppose we can all name the obvious general categories, but it doesn't do much for an individual wanting to know what it takes to be saved. And for a church that is one that has an explanation down to the most minute detail regarding almost everything that the mind of man can contemplate, I'm tempted to say, "is that all there is?"

For example, you didn't say if any acts count more than others, and if so, which. You didn't say how many of each is necessary for you to be saved. Or when they are to be done. All of that matters, we should think, to churches that believe we must do enough that's "good" in order to merit salvation.

What do you mean you "try to live our lives in a Christlike way."? If you try but fail isn't your failure ultimately due to disbelief?

No.

But how about the occasional drunkard or the occasional unrighteous Christian? Do they have genuine faith?

They may.

You just noted that reformed Christians "try" - implying that they sometimes sin or sometimes fail to do good deeds.

Of course. Do you think that we never sin??

Doesn't that demonstrate that they don't have genuine faith?

Not in the least. And not according to the Bible.

Where is the dividing line between the unrighteous and those who are trying to be righteous but sometimes fail and are unrighteous?

Your question supposes that we earn our salvation by our works. You wouldn't be asking this if you believed that we are saved by Faith.

 

[BenBud]

It's interesting that you should ask that question, because I've repeatedly asked those here who insist that works save us, to tell us all how many of them, which kind, etc.--and no one person has been able to answer. Of course, those of us who do not believe in "works righteousness," as it's called, haven't any reason to answer such a question. But you who make it the essence of your ideas concerning your own salvation ought to at least KNOW what it's all about, how it works, and so on. At least, one would think so.

For we who believe in salvation by Faith in Christ's atoning work on the Cross, it's pretty simple to explain what our belief is.

And it's not a "how much" proposition, as you sarcastically put it. Faith either is genuine or it's not; it isn't an accumulation of acts that are intended to play up to God until he decides we've earned our place in heaven.

1. Hearing and learning God's word

John 6:44,45 - No man can come to Jesus without hearing, learning, and being taught.
Romans 10:17 - Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

This is the role the word plays in salvation. We cannot be saved until we learn from God's word what He requires of us. The Spirit does not work directly on man's heart to lead to salvation, but works through the word (Ephesians 6:17).

[1 Cor. 1:21; 2 Tim. 3:16,17; John 8:31,32; Matthew 13:23; Romans 1:16; 10:13,14; Mark 16:15,16; Acts 8:26,29,35; 9:6; 11:14; 18:8; Luke 6:46-49; 11:28; 2 Thessalonians 2:14; Revelation 3:20]
2. Faith

Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Romans 5:1 - We are justified by faith.

The Bible describes different kinds and degrees of faith. Some believe God exists and Jesus is the Savior, but will not obey Him. This is not saving faith (James 2:19; John 12:41,42).

Saving faith is a conviction and trust in Jesus that leads one to obey Jesus in the other steps listed below (Galatians 5:6; James 2:14-26; Hebrews 11).

[Rom. 10:9,10; Gal. 3:26; John 3:16; 8:24; Mark 16:16; Acts 16:31; Eph. 2:8; Heb. 10:39; Hope - Rom. 8:24; Love - 1 John 4:7,8; Gal. 5:6; 1 Cor. 13:1-3; 16:22]
3. Repentance

2 Corinthians 7:10 - For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation.
Acts 2:38 - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

Repentance is a change of mind in which one determines to turn from sin and do what God says (Matt. 21:28,29). Without this decision, God will not save us.

[Luke 13:3,5; 24:47; Acts 17:30; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9]
4. Obedience to God's commands

To be forgiven, we must follow through on our repentance and do what God says. Many people will agree with everything to this point, but deny we must do anything. But note:

Hebrews 5:9 - Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
Romans 6:17,18 - When we obey from the heart the teaching delivered, we are then made free from sin.
1 Peter 1:22 - We purify our souls in obeying the truth.
Acts 10:34,35 - Whoever fears God and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

It is simply not true that nothing man does is necessary to salvation.

[Matthew 7:21-27; 22:36-39; John 14:15,21-24; Acts 3:20-23; Romans 2:6-10; Hebrews 10:39; 11:8,30; Galatians 5:6; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9; James 2:14-26; I John 5:3; 2:3-6]
5. Confession of Christ

Romans 10:9,10 - With the heart man believes to righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made to salvation.

Note that faith alone is not enough. Here is a physical act that must be done with the mouth to be saved - one must confess. To deny we must do anything to be saved is to deny confession is necessary.

[Matthew 10:32; 16:15-18; John 1:49; 4:42; 9:35-38; 11:27: 12:42,43; Acts 8:36-38; I Timothy 6:12,13; I John 4:15]
6. Baptism (immersion in water)

Many deny this step is necessary to be saved. Yet the Bible lists is as necessary, just as plainly as it does the other steps:

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Is a person saved before or without baptism? No more so than he is saved before or without faith!

Acts 2:38 - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Are sins remitted before or without baptism? No more so than they are remitted before or without repentance!

Peter was not talking to saved people, telling them what to do because they had been saved. He was talking to people in sin, telling them how to receive remission. The fact he told them to repent makes that clear.

Acts 22:16 - And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Were sins washed away before baptism or without it? A person is in sin until he has been baptized!

1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism doth also now save us.

The Bible says baptism is necessary to salvation just as clearly as it does the other conditions. The source or power to forgive is not in the water, or in faith, repentance, or confession. The power is in Jesus' blood, but that power is applied to the individual when he meets the conditions.

[Romans 6:3-7; Galatians 3:26,27]
7. Faithfulness, endurance

Matthew 10:22 - He who endures to the end will be saved.
Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

[1 Cor 15:1,2,58; Matt. 28:20; Titus 2:11,12; 1 John 2:1-6]

Again, some folks teach "once saved, always saved," denying faithfulness is necessary. Yet these verses affirm it is just as essential as the other conditions.
8. Church membership

Again people say, "The church doesn't save you. Christ saves you." So they conclude we don't need to be members of the church to be saved. But the Bible says:

Acts 2:47 - The Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. The church does not save, but those who are saved are in the church. If we are not in the church, what is our condition?

Acts 20:28 - Jesus purchased the church with His blood (that which saves us).

Ephesians 5:23,25 - Jesus is Savior of the body (church), and gave Himself for the church. How can one be saved if He is not part of that which Jesus died to save?

Clearly there are many things God did to make salvation available to man, and there are several things each person must do to receive the salvation God offers.

 

[Albion]

1. Hearing and learning God's word

John 6:44,45 - No man can come to Jesus without hearing, learning, and being taught.
Romans 10:17 - Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

This is the role the word plays in salvation. We cannot be saved until we learn from God's word what He requires of us. The Spirit does not work directly on man's heart to lead to salvation, but works through the word (Ephesians 6:17).

[1 Cor. 1:21; 2 Tim. 3:16,17; John 8:31,32; Matthew 13:23; Romans 1:16; 10:13,14; Mark 16:15,16; Acts 8:26,29,35; 9:6; 11:14; 18:8; Luke 6:46-49; 11:28; 2 Thessalonians 2:14; Revelation 3:20]
2. Faith

Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Romans 5:1 - We are justified by faith.

The Bible describes different kinds and degrees of faith. Some believe God exists and Jesus is the Savior, but will not obey Him. This is not saving faith (James 2:19; John 12:41,42).

Saving faith is a conviction and trust in Jesus that leads one to obey Jesus in the other steps listed below (Galatians 5:6; James 2:14-26; Hebrews 11).

[Rom. 10:9,10; Gal. 3:26; John 3:16; 8:24; Mark 16:16; Acts 16:31; Eph. 2:8; Heb. 10:39; Hope - Rom. 8:24; Love - 1 John 4:7,8; Gal. 5:6; 1 Cor. 13:1-3; 16:22]
3. Repentance

2 Corinthians 7:10 - For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation.
Acts 2:38 - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

Repentance is a change of mind in which one determines to turn from sin and do what God says (Matt. 21:28,29). Without this decision, God will not save us.

[Luke 13:3,5; 24:47; Acts 17:30; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9]
4. Obedience to God's commands

To be forgiven, we must follow through on our repentance and do what God says. Many people will agree with everything to this point, but deny we must do anything. But note:

Hebrews 5:9 - Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
Romans 6:17,18 - When we obey from the heart the teaching delivered, we are then made free from sin.
1 Peter 1:22 - We purify our souls in obeying the truth.
Acts 10:34,35 - Whoever fears God and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

It is simply not true that nothing man does is necessary to salvation.

[Matthew 7:21-27; 22:36-39; John 14:15,21-24; Acts 3:20-23; Romans 2:6-10; Hebrews 10:39; 11:8,30; Galatians 5:6; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9; James 2:14-26; I John 5:3; 2:3-6]
5. Confession of Christ

Romans 10:9,10 - With the heart man believes to righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made to salvation.

Note that faith alone is not enough. Here is a physical act that must be done with the mouth to be saved - one must confess. To deny we must do anything to be saved is to deny confession is necessary.

[Matthew 10:32; 16:15-18; John 1:49; 4:42; 9:35-38; 11:27: 12:42,43; Acts 8:36-38; I Timothy 6:12,13; I John 4:15]
6. Baptism (immersion in water)

Many deny this step is necessary to be saved. Yet the Bible lists is as necessary, just as plainly as it does the other steps:

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Is a person saved before or without baptism? No more so than he is saved before or without faith!

Acts 2:38 - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. Are sins remitted before or without baptism? No more so than they are remitted before or without repentance!

Peter was not talking to saved people, telling them what to do because they had been saved. He was talking to people in sin, telling them how to receive remission. The fact he told them to repent makes that clear.

Acts 22:16 - And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Were sins washed away before baptism or without it? A person is in sin until he has been baptized!

1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism doth also now save us.

The Bible says baptism is necessary to salvation just as clearly as it does the other conditions. The source or power to forgive is not in the water, or in faith, repentance, or confession. The power is in Jesus' blood, but that power is applied to the individual when he meets the conditions.

[Romans 6:3-7; Galatians 3:26,27]
7. Faithfulness, endurance

Matthew 10:22 - He who endures to the end will be saved.
Revelation 2:10 - Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

[1 Cor 15:1,2,58; Matt. 28:20; Titus 2:11,12; 1 John 2:1-6]

Again, some folks teach "once saved, always saved," denying faithfulness is necessary. Yet these verses affirm it is just as essential as the other conditions.
8. Church membership

Again people say, "The church doesn't save you. Christ saves you." So they conclude we don't need to be members of the church to be saved. But the Bible says:

Acts 2:47 - The Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. The church does not save, but those who are saved are in the church. If we are not in the church, what is our condition?

Acts 20:28 - Jesus purchased the church with His blood (that which saves us).

Ephesians 5:23,25 - Jesus is Savior of the body (church), and gave Himself for the church. How can one be saved if He is not part of that which Jesus died to save?






Clearly there are many things God did to make salvation available to man, and there are several things each person must do to receive the salvation God offers.

What are they?

 

[BenBud]

What are they?

Be a disciple.

 

[BenBud]

What are they?

Hear, Believe, Repent, Commit, and be Baptized.

 

[Albion]

Hear, Believe, Repent, Commit, and be Baptized.

Then we're agreed that helping little old ladies across the street won't change God's mind about your eternal destination, huh?

 

[Targaryen]

Then we're agreed that helping little old ladies across the street won't change God's mind about your eternal destination, huh?

I'm also pretty sure that sitting on your butt and doing nothing at all but believe will prove nothing either.

Again, faith without works is dead faith.

 

[BenBud]

Then we're agreed that helping little old ladies across the street won't change God's mind about your eternal destination, huh?

Correct.

 

[BenBud]

I'm also pretty sure that sitting on your butt and doing nothing at all but believe will prove nothing either.

Again, faith without works is dead faith.

Correct.

 

[Albion]

Correct.

Yes. Faith without works is dead. In other words, it's not saving faith.

So, in no way does that verse tell us that we're saved by doing good deeds or that we are not saved by faith.

Agreed?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm also pretty sure that sitting on your butt and doing nothing at all but believe will prove nothing either.

Again, faith without works is dead faith.

Pity the poor paraplegics and quadrplegics who cannot do anything other than "sit on their butts". I guess they can't be saved.

 

[saintboniface]

How much sin can be committed or how much lack of good deeds can occur before God says that the person does not have a genuine saving faith?

Suppose a married man is on fire for the Lord. He spends much of his time spreading the gospel, serving the poor, and generally being a good Christian. Then he starts having an affair. He simultaneously loves the Lord but also gives into the desires of the flesh. He says he still believes Jesus is the savior and he truly does believe Jesus is the savior. He just can't pass up the huge temptation. Does he have true saving faith or not? He thinks he does - do you think so?