works based salvation

[pescador]

God has to do something, right?

God has to do something? He is God and can do whatever He likes. He is subject to no one, and everyone is subject to Him.

 

[Albion]

God has to do something?

Yes, certainly. No one who is lost and in sin can turn himself--by his own strength or wisdom--to righteousness, to Faith in Christ, and so achieve salvation.

Of course, when I say "has to do" I don't mean God is compelled to do it, but unless he does, it will not happen. In that sense, he "has" to do something if any of us is to be saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Since salvation is a gift from God... If you throw away a gift, by definition you no longer have it, whether it's from God or anyone else.

Unless that person repents, and what about my question in post 58?

 

[BNR32FAN]

And those conditions, beyond believing that salvation is God's free gift, are..?

Remaining in Christ. Do you realize that it is possible for someone to fail to remain in Christ? John 15:6

 

[pescador]

Unless that person repents, and what about my question in post 58?

So it's by works? God gives his grace to whomever he chooses. It's not dependent on their actions, but on Gods.

Post #58 is not a question. 8^)

 

[pescador]

Remaining in Christ. Do you realize that it is possible for someone to fail to remain in Christ? John 15:6

Of course. People can deny God's gift of salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So it's by works? God gives his grace to whomever he chooses. It's not dependent on their actions, but on Gods.

Post #58 is not a question. 8^)

No I view repentance as a change of heart by setting your mind on God instead of worldly things and I believe God will grant grace to anyone who seeks it. I don’t see repentance as a work any more than believing in Christ is.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So it's by works? God gives his grace to whomever he chooses. It's not dependent on their actions, but on Gods.

Post #58 is not a question. 8^)

Im sorry post 58 was reiterating on my question in post 56. Let me ask it another way. When is a person saved?

 

[klutedavid]

So what about those who don’t accept it? Are they saved? Oh and what about those who don’t abide in Christ?

Not abiding in Christ is not believing in Jesus Christ!

If you really believe in Jesus Christ then you will behave yourself, you will have some level of good works (love).

It is profoundly simple.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not abiding in Christ is not believing in Jesus Christ!

If you really believe in Jesus Christ then you will behave yourself, you will have some level of good works (love).

It is profoundly simple.

But some will believe for a while then turn away from Christ. This is what I mean by not abiding in Christ. They don’t remain in Him.

 

[klutedavid]

Im sorry post 58 was reiterating on my question in post 56. Let me ask it another way. When is a person saved?

As the scripture plainly tells us.

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

We don't worship Jesus and offer thanksgiving because we are unsure about our salvation. Our salvation is absolutely secure in Jesus Christ.

If you get drunk every night and ignore suffering people, then go to church on Sunday hungover. Then there would be grounds to doubt whether you really do believe in Jesus.

The belief in Jesus dictates automatically an alteration in goals and objectives.

 

[klutedavid]

But some will believe for a while then turn away from Christ. This is what I mean by not abiding in Christ. They don’t remain in Him.

You can interpret that in two ways.

1) They never really believed in the first place, they were never one of us.

2) People can fall away from that belief and for a host of reasons.

Ultimately, if a person believes in Jesus deep down, then God will guard them and they can never fail.

Salvation is engineered by God Himself and nothing on earth or heaven can impede your salvation, it is absolute.

Your already seated in the heavenly realms.

 

[Guojing]

Ah, so there is also a problem at your end with understanding the meaning of "only" in addition to understanding the meaning of "works."

Well, all of us tend to think our understanding is the correct one, so if we meet another who disagree, we will naturally think the problem lies with them.

 

[Guojing]

And those conditions, beyond believing that salvation is God's free gift, are..?

According to him, you also need to reject the mark of the beast during the Tribulation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You can interpret that in two ways.

1) They never really believed in the first place, they were never one of us.

2) People can fall away from that belief and for a host of reasons.

Ultimately, if a person believes in Jesus deep down, then God will guard them and they can never fail.

Salvation is engineered by God Himself and nothing on earth or heaven can impede your salvation, it is absolute.

Your already seated in the heavenly realms.

Then why did Jesus say this?


“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[klutedavid]

Then why did Jesus say this?


“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:4-7‬ ‭NASB‬‬

As I have already said, if you really do believe in Jesus, then obviously, Jesus is the focus of your life. Abiding in Jesus is what believing in Jesus actually is all about.

If you believe in something that is what will fill your thoughts and your life. If you believe your going to heaven your not going to be too interested in politics say, or worldly events.
Life here is temporary; that is what it means to believe in Jesus!

 

[BNR32FAN]

As I have already said, if you really do believe in Jesus, then obviously, Jesus is the focus of your life. Abiding in Jesus is what believing in Jesus actually is all about.

If you believe in something that is what will fill your thoughts and your life. If you believe your going to heaven your not going to be too interested in politics say, or worldly events.
Life here is temporary; that is what it means to believe in Jesus!

Do you realize who He was talking to when He said this? Do you think He was talking to people who were not true believers?

 

[klutedavid]

Do you realize who He was talking to when He said this? Do you think He was talking to people who were not true believers?

I have difficulty in understanding why you have a problem with what Paul wrote?

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Your saying that you must jump the hurdles plus you must believe in Jesus Christ. But that is not what Paul said in the letter to the Romans.

Do you take exception to what Paul wrote?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have difficulty in understanding why you have a problem with what Paul wrote?

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Your saying that you must jump the hurdles plus you must believe in Jesus Christ. But that is not what Paul said in the letter to the Romans.

Do you take exception to what Paul wrote?

I take into consideration what Paul wrote and how it coincides with ALL scriptura not just a single verse. And by the way I’m not saying anything, I’m simply relaying the message just like John relayed the message that Jesus gave to His 11 FAITHFUL APOSTLES in John 15. In John 15 Jesus told them to remain in Him, then He told them why they must remain in Him, then He explained the consequences of failing to remain in Him, then He explained the rewards IF they remain in Him. Now unless you believe that John 6:64 is incorrect then you would know that Jesus knew that every one of these men He is speaking to IS A TRUE BELIEVER and yet He still explains to them the necessity of remaining in Him. Anyone who does not remain in Him is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. So since we know they were undoubtedly true believers we know that even true believers can turn away from Christ which will result in loss of salvation. It doesn’t matter if they believed before or even if they still believe today, if they are not abiding in Christ they will burn in the lake of fire. So believing is not an automatic ticket into heaven. Abiding in Christ means that you are remaining in His teachings and His servant.

Do these people believe in Christ?

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Why were they rejected?

“"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:24-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[klutedavid]

I take into consideration what Paul wrote and how it coincides with ALL scriptura not just a single verse. And by the way I’m not saying anything, I’m simply relaying the message just like John relayed the message that Jesus gave to His 11 FAITHFUL APOSTLES in John 15. In John 15 Jesus told them to remain in Him, then He told them why they must remain in Him, then He explained the consequences of failing to remain in Him, then He explained the rewards IF they remain in Him. Now unless you believe that John 6:64 is incorrect then you would know that Jesus knew that every one of these men He is speaking to IS A TRUE BELIEVER and yet He still explains to them the necessity of remaining in Him. Anyone who does not remain in Him is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. So since we know they were undoubtedly true believers we know that even true believers can turn away from Christ which will result in loss of salvation. It doesn’t matter if they believed before or even if they still believe today, if they are not abiding in Christ they will burn in the lake of fire. So believing is not an automatic ticket into heaven. Abiding in Christ means that you are remaining in His teachings and His servant.

Do these people believe in Christ?

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Why were they rejected?

“"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:24-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

What you said was not incorrect but it is not related to the thread.

If you believe in Jesus then you are saved. If you discontinue to believe in Jesus then you are not saved.

The thread concerns the subject of works and salvation.

Works have no roll in the foundation of salvation which is only through and in, Jesus Christ.

No matter how phenomenal your works are, it will not make a shred of difference to the reason for your salvation.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is contained in 1 Corinthians 15, that is how anyone is saved ultimately. The apostles struggled with the simplicity of the gospel and so has everyone else, ever since it was first declared.

Abiding in Jesus is believing in Jesus, trusting in Jesus.

You cannot bear fruit or endure through life without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a gift given to those who believe in Jesus. His yoke is easy and not hard to bear.