works based salvation

[BNR32FAN]

of course it does. You are either saved by works or faith. this verse, among others, seems to indicate that works are the dividing line between heaven and hell- there's no mention whatsoever about faith, or jesus in there

Your missing a huge point in the chapter.


“Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:4-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The living will reign with Christ. The verses you quoted only pertain to the dead, those who will not receive eternal life. I think the word dead in this chapter refers to the spiritually dead.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Packerman.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

You may have misread what Paul wrote because you wrote the following.

The order for salvation is grace -> through faith -> to do good works.

The text actually says.

The order for salvation is grace -> through faith -> not by your works -> created new in Christ Jesus -> for good works.

This slight correction puts the GIFT of salvation into God's hands alone.

So he who does not have good works does not have the grace of God.

You have that in reverse.

You must receive the Holy Spirit before any act of love (work) can commence. Thus you must believe in Jesus before you receive the Holy Spirit. In that belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ the gift of salvation, is received by the recipient. Then and only then, can the recipient use the gift of love towards others.

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)]

*Blindpost*

Stop cherry picking scripture, friend. Look at the totality of the Bible and know it's by faith alone in Christ alone.

 

[BNR32FAN]

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Ephesians 2:8,9

The order for salvation is grace -> through faith -> to do good works.

So he who does not have good works does not have the grace of God.

I would say such a person still has grace because he is still able to repent but he will not be justified because he is not abiding in Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hello Packerman.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

You may have misread what Paul wrote because you wrote the following.The text actually says.

The order for salvation is grace -> through faith -> not by your works -> created new in Christ Jesus -> for good works.

This slight correction puts the GIFT of salvation into God's hands alone.You have that in reverse.

You must receive the Holy Spirit before any act of love (work) can commence. Thus you must believe in Jesus before you receive the Holy Spirit. In that belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ the gift of salvation, is received by the recipient. Then and only then, can the recipient use the gift of love towards others.

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

A person can have grace and refuse to do good works. This is why Jesus gave the message in John 15:1-10.

 

[BNR32FAN]

*Blindpost*

Stop cherry picking scripture, friend. Look at the totality of the Bible and know it's by faith alone in Christ alone.

“If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Albion]

A lot of good points have been made by different people already in this thread--enough to demonstrate that the verse from Revelation doesn't stand alone and also that it doesn't necessarily prove that works contribute to our chances of salvation.

But as I read that passage, it does seem that the "dead," i.e. the non-believers, must be judged according to their works, the works of the Law. That is the standard for all who are not in Christ. And they will certainly be found wanting, for no one can keep the Law perfectly. That's why mankind needed a Savior.

For believers, the works of the Savior, most notably the sacrifice of the Cross, take care of that. And the means by which those merits are appropriated by believers is Faith in Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

[Guojing]

A lot of good points have been made by different people already in this thread--enough to demonstrate that the verse from Revelation doesn't stand alone and also that it doesn't necessarily prove that works contribute to our chances of salvation.

But as I read that passage, it does seem that the "dead," i.e. the non-believers, must be judged according to their works, the works of the Law. That is the standard for all who are not in Christ. And they will certainly be found wanting, for no one can keep the Law perfectly. That's why mankind needed a Savior.

For believers, the works of the Savior, most notably the sacrifice of the Cross, take care of that. And the means by which those merits are appropriated by believers is Faith in Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior.

The main work one must do during the Tribulation is not to bow down to the beast and take his mark.

So yes, it is faith in Jesus AND works, no buts about it.

 

[klutedavid]

A person can have grace and refuse to do good works. This is why Jesus gave the message in John 15:1-10.

That may be true but that does not change, the fact, that we are not saved because of any works we do.

The point is that the belief in Jesus is the critical requirement.

The works follow on from the reception of the Holy Spirit. You cannot commit works without the Holy Spirit.

We are not discussing whether this person with some works, or that person without any works is saved or unsaved.

We are stating the criteria for salvation which is
Romans 10:9-10 as declared by the apostle Paul.

 

[klutedavid]

The main work one must do during the Tribulation is not to bow down to the beast and take his mark.

So yes, it is faith in Jesus AND works, no buts about it.

Salvation is a free gift and you cannot earn it.

 

[Guojing]

Salvation is a free gift and you cannot earn it.

That is for us now under the gospel of grace.

But that gospel will not be preached during the Tribulation. Revelations 14:9-12 made it clear that both faith in Jesus and keeping the commandments, aka not taking the mark of the beast, are required.

 

[klutedavid]

That is for us now under the gospel of grace.

But that gospel will not be preached during the Tribulation. Revelations 14:9-12 made it clear that both faith in Jesus and keeping the commandments, aka not taking the mark of the beast, are required.

Obviously taking the mark of the beast is a direct denial of the gospel.

Yet we have been commanded to believe in Jesus Christ and to love others as He loved us.

The gospel still remains true.

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Unless of course you think Paul had it wrong?

 

[Guojing]

Obviously taking the mark of the beast is a direct denial of the gospel.

Yet we have been commanded to believe in Jesus Christ and to love others as He loved us.

The gospel still remains true.

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Unless of course you think Paul had it wrong?

Paul was writing for the body of Christ. During the tribulation we will no longer be on earth

 

[BNR32FAN]

That may be true but that does not change, the fact, that we are not saved because of any works we do.

The point is that the belief in Jesus is the critical requirement.

The works follow on from the reception of the Holy Spirit. You cannot commit works without the Holy Spirit.

We are not discussing whether this person with some works, or that person without any works is saved or unsaved.

We are stating the criteria for salvation which is
Romans 10:9-10 as declared by the apostle Paul.

Yes I completely agree, no amount of works can save anyone, period. The determining factor is are we abiding in Christ and is He abiding in us.

 

[Albion]

The main work one must do during the Tribulation is not to bow down to the beast and take his mark.

So yes, it is faith in Jesus AND works, no buts about it.

That wouldn't be "works" however.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That wouldn't be "works" however.

I agree, not doing something isn’t a work.

 

[Guojing]

That wouldn't be "works" however.

if you don’t have the mark, you cannot buy or sell anything

you run the risk of starvation or death

that is not work to you?

 

[Albion]

if you don’t have the mark, you cannot buy or sell anything

you run the risk of starvation or death

that is not work to you?

No, it's not. For two reasons--

As has been said already, NOT doing something is not a work because a work is something you DO.

Second, with the religious use of the word, a "work" is something done that is meritorious.

Obviously, it would contribute nothing to your chances of salvation (assuming that works did count) IF the works that were done by you were ones that have no particular value. Helping the poor to buy groceries might be considered a good work, but throwing a pebble into the woods for no reason wouldn't be.

 

[Guojing]

No, it's not. For two reasons--

As has been said already, NOT doing something is not a work because a work is something you DO.

Second, with the religious use of the word, a "work" is something done that is meritorious.

Obviously, it would contribute nothing to your chances of salvation (assuming that works did count) IF the works that were done by you were ones that have no particular value. Helping the poor to buy groceries might be considered a good work, but throwing a pebble into the woods for no reason wouldn't be.

Okay if you want to add to faith, all these additional conditions, and still call it faith only, I cannot stop you

 

[BNR32FAN]

if you don’t have the mark, you cannot buy or sell anything

you run the risk of starvation or death

that is not work to you?

That’s ok I love fishing.