works based salvation

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi aggregate,

Revelation 20:12 talks of two categories of book. There are those books mentioned when John sees that books were opened and seperate from those books he sees the book of life, "...and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life...". For those who are not written in the book of life, they are called the dead and have their works judged, again from verse 12, "The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books".

So in short, if our name is written in the Book of Life, the Word of God, the Word Himself, Jesus, our lives are judged as righteous by His righteousness. If we are not written in the Book of Life, we are written in the book of death and judged by those works.

That's how I read it anyways.

We shall all stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ to give an answer for the deeds done in the body whether good or bad.

We will not be judged by the righteous deeds of Christ at all but by our own deeds whether good or bad. The sheep and the goats parable clearly shows this.

But we can be forgiven and work with the Holy Spirit to become rich in deeds obeying God so we need not fear.

But if we think God is so blind that He just sees Jesus when He looks at us we are sorely mistaken. That would be a horrible mischarage of justice in the eyes of everyone who suffered from our sin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What you said was not incorrect but it is not related to the thread.

If you believe in Jesus then you are saved. If you discontinue to believe in Jesus then you are not saved.

The thread concerns the subject of works and salvation.

Works have no roll in the foundation of salvation which is only through and in, Jesus Christ.

No matter how phenomenal your works are, it will not make a shred of difference to the reason for your salvation.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is contained in 1 Corinthians 15, that is how anyone is saved ultimately. The apostles struggled with the simplicity of the gospel and so has everyone else, ever since it was first declared.

Abiding in Jesus is believing in Jesus, trusting in Jesus.

You cannot bear fruit or endure through life without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a gift given to those who believe in Jesus. His yoke is easy and not hard to bear.

If you believe but refuse to repent of the evil deeds you do refusing to let the Holy Spirit change your deeds, then you will eventually quench Him out of your life. From experience most of these finally admit in the end that they no longer believe unless they got ahold of OSAS and then they foolishly believe they’re going to Heaven no matter what and think believing OSAS is the same as trusting in Jesus.

 

[klutedavid]

If you believe but refuse to repent of the evil deeds you do refusing to let the Holy Spirit change your deeds, then you will eventually quench Him out of your life. From experience most of these finally admit in the end that they no longer believe

Well the question that needs to be addressed is, did these unrepentant folk really believe in Jesus Christ from the start? Or was it not so much belief in Jesus but more so that Jesus as Lord of heaven and earth was an interesting concept or an interesting idea.

The Christian life is the outcome of that belief in Jesus Christ.

When you receive the Holy Spirit you are continually reminded of your sin, and most Christians start to curb their sinful ways anyway. That is what the Holy Spirit does, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteous and God's judgement.

Yet we are somewhat removed from the topic of this thread.

What role do works play in salvation?

Whether a person repents 100% or 95% of their sin, is irrelevant to this thread.

OSAS has a slither of truth to it; because only true believers will be in heaven in the end. I do not advocate OSAS, but on the other hand, it cannot be denied either.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

We shall all stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ to give an answer for the deeds done in the body whether good or bad.

We will not be judged by the righteous deeds of Christ at all but by our own deeds whether good or bad. The sheep and the goats parable clearly shows this.

But we can be forgiven and work with the Holy Spirit to become rich in deeds obeying God so we need not fear.

But if we think God is so blind that He just sees Jesus when He looks at us we are sorely mistaken. That would be a horrible mischarage of justice in the eyes of everyone who suffered from our sin.

How can I stand before the Judgment seat of Christ? I am already in Him and He in me, so standing before Him for judgement makes no sense whatsoever. I was judged to death already, "I died with Christ so it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me!!!!!!!!!" (Galatians 2:20). Now He would have to judge Himself because I've placed my trust in Him for my salvation. Not by works Miss Mae, NEVER by works. Jesus + NOTHING.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well the question that needs to be addressed is, did these unrepentant folk really believe in Jesus Christ from the start? Or was it not so much belief in Jesus but more so that Jesus as Lord of heaven and earth was an interesting concept or an interesting idea.

They believed the same as many here who are convinced Christians and more than some by the fruit in their lives. He was their Lord, a person, not a concept

The Christian life is the outcome of that belief in Jesus Christ.

Their outcome during those years was a fruitful walk.

When you receive the Holy Spirit you are continually reminded of your sin, and most Christians start to curb their sinful ways anyway.

Maybe. Depends on the theology taught them.

That is what the Holy Spirit does, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteous and God's judgement.

Correct.

Yet we are somewhat removed from the topic of this thread.

What role do works play in salvation?

Why are we removed?

Whether a person repents 100% or 95% of their sin, is irrelevant to this thread.

OSAS has a slither of truth to it; because only true believers will be in heaven in the end. I do not advocate OSAS, but on the other hand, it cannot be denied either.

Ah, fence sitter. It has no truth to it and there will be those in hell who believed in OSAS. I am concerned for them.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How can I stand before the Judgment seat of Christ?

Do you think Paul was in Christ? He said he would stand before the Judgement.

I am already in Him and He in me, so standing before Him for judgement makes no sense whatsoever.

Then your thinking needs an adjustment.

I was judged to death already, "I died with Christ so it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me!!!!!!!!!" (Galatians 2:20). Now He would have to judge Himself because I've placed my trust in Him for my salvation. Not by works Miss Mae, NEVER by works. Jesus + NOTHING.

Too bad. The man who buried what the Master gave him didn’t do well at that judgement. The goats didn’t do well either. The foolish virgins did really badly. All of those believed they need to do nothing.

Those who have nothing to give because they relieved themselves of all the obligations of faith and love for God didn’t do well either (wood, hay and stubble describes their lives.) But you won’t be the only one.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Do you think Paul was in Christ?

Who penned Galatians 2:20 ..."it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me"? What is baptism?

Read the whole of John 14. Jesus says, "Do not let your hearts be troubled..." (John 14:1)

Why? Because...

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20).

Just as Paul reiterates over and over, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." (2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10; 1 Peter 2:9; the whole New Testament!). It is only because we are one with God through Jesus we are saved, not by our own effort, but by His Spirit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What you said was not incorrect but it is not related to the thread.

If you believe in Jesus then you are saved. If you discontinue to believe in Jesus then you are not saved.

The thread concerns the subject of works and salvation.

Works have no roll in the foundation of salvation which is only through and in, Jesus Christ.

No matter how phenomenal your works are, it will not make a shred of difference to the reason for your salvation.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is contained in 1 Corinthians 15, that is how anyone is saved ultimately. The apostles struggled with the simplicity of the gospel and so has everyone else, ever since it was first declared.

Abiding in Jesus is believing in Jesus, trusting in Jesus.

You cannot bear fruit or endure through life without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a gift given to those who believe in Jesus. His yoke is easy and not hard to bear.

Im sorry I believe I may have misunderstood your position friend. I thought you were saying that a person doesn’t have to abide in Christ in order to receive salvation. I thought you were promoting eternal security, that no one could fall away from Christ and lose their salvation.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

He said he would stand before the Judgement.

Sorry, forgot to address this bit. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what we have done whether good or bad". The translation for "we must all appear before", in the greek, is not written in the future tense. It is written in the aorist passive infinitive which means the action is complete from start to finish (its difficult to find the correct English word for this). What it means is that we must all appear before the judgment seat whether it be yesterday (when the gospel came to us), today (the day of judgment for any sinner who has not received the gospel), or tomorrow (those in the future yet to appear before the judgment seat). Francois Du Toit translates it this way for the Mirror Bible, "For we have been thoroughly scrutinized in the judgment of Jesus...". When we read the whole of 2 Corinthians 5 this makes a lot of sense to why a little later Paul says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17). If he was talking in the future tense the passage doesn't flow properly.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Who penned Galatians 2:20 ..."it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me"? What is baptism?

Read the whole of John 14. Jesus says, "Do not let your hearts be troubled..." (John 14:1)

Why? Because...

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you" (John 14:20).

Just as Paul reiterates over and over, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." (2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10; 1 Peter 2:9; the whole New Testament!). It is only because we are one with God through Jesus we are saved, not by our own effort, but by His Spirit.

Paul wrote that we (including him) will all be judged for the deeds done in the body. I’ll have to look up the references later.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sorry, forgot to address this bit. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what we have done whether good or bad". The translation for "we must all appear before", in the greek, is not written in the future tense. It is written in the aorist passive infinitive which means the action is complete from start to finish (its difficult to find the correct English word for this). What it means is that we must all appear before the judgment seat whether it be yesterday (when the gospel came to us), today (the day of judgment for any sinner who has not received the gospel), or tomorrow (those in the future yet to appear before the judgment seat). Francois Du Toit translates it this way for the Mirror Bible, "For we have been thoroughly scrutinized in the judgment of Jesus...". When we read the whole of 2 Corinthians 5 this makes a lot of sense to why a little later Paul says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17). If he was talking in the future tense the passage doesn't flow properly.

Sounds plausible until I ask the outcome of said judgement in your life. If this is continually happening, can you give us an example of the outcome described in the passage please. No mention of being in Christ in there, by the way.

Thanks for the example of that judgement you claim you continually experience or already did.

I actually think being a new creature changes the outcome of future judgement as one would have lived differently in real deeds done.

Since he gave no examples of this kind of judgement and it supports the teaching of Jesus who gave many warning about a day of giving an account, I think the continual judgement makes no sense. The warning is for the future. A continual “scrutiny” is not judgement and nothing to fear.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sorry, forgot to address this bit. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what we have done whether good or bad". The translation for "we must all appear before", in the greek, is not written in the future tense. It is written in the aorist passive infinitive which means the action is complete from start to finish (its difficult to find the correct English word for this). What it means is that we must all appear before the judgment seat whether it be yesterday (when the gospel came to us), today (the day of judgment for any sinner who has not received the gospel), or tomorrow (those in the future yet to appear before the judgment seat). Francois Du Toit translates it this way for the Mirror Bible, "For we have been thoroughly scrutinized in the judgment of Jesus...". When we read the whole of 2 Corinthians 5 this makes a lot of sense to why a little later Paul says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17). If he was talking in the future tense the passage doesn't flow properly.

YAA, I read the whole Chapter and it clearly talks about the future. It says when are in the body we are absent from the Lord. That’s this life. When we leave the body we are talking about future for sure. Talking about the future exclusively, he mentions judgement. So I don’t see this continual scrutiny at all but the opposite.

“For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.”

Clearly this cannot be the present.

9 Wherefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well-pleasing unto him.

To be well pleasing to Him we have to be obeying Him. Obeying Him means WORK(S)...that He prepares for us to WALK (active verb) in.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Sounds plausible until I ask the outcome of said judgement in your life. If this is continually happening, can you give us an example of the outcome described in the passage please. No mention of being in Christ in there, by the way.

Thanks for the example of that judgement you claim you continually experience or already did.

I actually think being a new creature changes the outcome of future judgement as one would have lived differently in real deeds done.

Since he gave no examples of this kind of judgement and it supports the teaching of Jesus who gave many warning about a day of giving an account, I think the continual judgement makes no sense. The warning is for the future. A continual “scrutiny” is not judgement and nothing to fear.

The outcome of the judgment is death. Followed by the gift of life, His Spirit I.e. reconciliation. No longer separated from God but one in Spirit (2 Corinthians 5:5). We were all in the book of death before we were confronted by the gospel. We stood there at the judgement seat of Christ and were judged to death. But He came to us and breathed new life. Our names were written in Him, the Book of Life, the Word of God

I acknowledge nearly all translators have written 5:10 in the future tense, but its not there in the Greek. So once this text is removed from the future judgment arsenal we would have to go through Jesus' words delicately on their own account. For now I'll say that He often spoke of judgement with regards to the temple destruction in 70AD.

 

[pescador]

Im sorry post 58 was reiterating on my question in post 56. Let me ask it another way. When is a person saved?

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[BNR32FAN]

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

This doesn’t answer the question. If your saying a person is saved when God gave them the gift then your contradicting yourself when you said that a person can reject His gift. So I’m not sure exactly what your point is by posting this verse. Can you just answer in your own words please?

 

[pescador]

The outcome of the judgment is death. Followed by the gift of life, His Spirit I.e. reconciliation. No longer separated from God but one in Spirit (2 Corinthians 5:5). We were all in the book of death before we were confronted by the gospel. We stood there at the judgement seat of Christ and were judged to death. But He came to us and breathed new life. Our names were written in Him, the Book of Life, the Word of God

I acknowledge nearly all translators have written 5:10 in the future tense, but its not there in the Greek. So once this text is removed from the future judgment arsenal we would have to go through Jesus' words delicately on their own account. For now I'll say that He often spoke of judgement with regards to the temple destruction in 70AD.

So in your opinion "nearly all translators" are wrong. How do you credentials stack up against theirs?

2 Corinthians 6-10 says, "Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ [clearly that's in the future], so that each of us may receive [clearly that's in the future] what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

 

[pescador]

This doesn’t answer the question. If your saying a person is saved when God gave them the gift then your contradicting yourself when you said that a person can reject His gift. So I’m not sure exactly what your point is by posting this verse. Can you just answer in your own words please?

Anyone can reject God's gift of salvation. Salvation is never forced on anyone. What don't you understand about that?

 

[BNR32FAN]

So in your opinion "nearly all translators" are wrong. How do you credentials stack up against theirs?

2 Corinthians 6-10 says, "Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ [clearly that's in the future], so that each of us may receive [clearly that's in the future] what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

When you start studying the Greek transcripts you’ll notice mistranslations in almost every version in one place or another.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Anyone can reject God's gift of salvation. Salvation is never forced on anyone. What don't you understand about that?

so when is a person saved?

 

[pescador]

When you start studying the Greek transcripts you’ll notice mistranslations in almost every version in one place or another.

Which Greek transcripts? There are many of them, and there is often disagreement about which is the most reliable.

Do you understand anything about translation? It's not simply translating from the source language to modern English. Koine Greek is vastly different from 21st Century English, and the cultures couldn't be more different. Competent translators must understand not only the nuances of the source language and the nuances of the destination language, but also what the words meant to those living almost two thousand years ago and what they mean today -- in many cases something vastly different.