Working on a Sunday

[geocajun]

I believe the Bible is clear that the laws have been fulfilled and no longer applicable to the new covenant that Jesus brought to us but that the commandments that Jesus gave us are the commandments to live by.

Amen!

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I’m confused here, what subject do you think Ephesians deals with? Sunday worship? I don’t see it.

You were asking how you as a Gentile are required to keep God's law, and you were wondering where the proof was that gentiles are part of Israel. I'll give a couple of verses:

This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 3:6

Also:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion, He will turn godlessness away from Jacob. As this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins. Romans 11:26-27

I can see how you are able to distinguish which are ceremonial laws but how do you separate which ones are moral laws? For example the Sabbath is ceremonial but is included in the Ten Commandments, which is mostly moral. Also you need to consider that there is a difference between a law and a commandment. In John 15:9-10 Jesus makes a distinction between his commandments and God’s commandments. I believe the Bible is clear that the laws have been fulfilled and no longer applicable to the new covenant that Jesus brought to us but that the commandments that Jesus gave us are the commandments to live by.

No, the Sabbath isn't ceremonial. None of the ten commandments are. You'll notice they are broken into two parts, in order of importance: the first four commandments are the requirements for how we are to honor God, and in keeping the Sabbath, we are testifying that we are partakers in His eternal rest.

The 'rest' talked about in Hebrews is not about keeping the Sabbath. The rest it is referring to is when Jesus returns and frees us from this fleshly world. This rest is coming, it is not here now as you can see from reading further down the verses. If it was already here and it was the Sabbath you would not need to labor to enter into that rest.

Actually, it is. I even quoted an exact verse. Do you have a Bible? It says, "Sabbath."

There remains, then, a sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His. Hebrews 4:9-10

I would really encourage you to read the whole reference I gave you, though, because there are some very serious warnings in there that whoever does not keep the Sabbath will never enter God's rest. My friend, I just don't want you to go into the issue without having all the facts. I know people often feel like they're losing money if they rest on the Sabbath, but God is more than able to give you everything you need. And if He wants you to make a sacrifice for the kingdom, you aren't making any sacrifice at all-believe me. A few dollars isn't worth his displeasure-I can absolutely promise you that. I'm telling you this because this is a very serious issue.

Hebrews 4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Exactly: to enter that...what? rest. Please don't make the mistake of translating scripture to match what you want to believe and do. It will only snare your soul. I'm telling you this as a friend.

Blessings to you.

 

[geocajun]

Please don't make the mistake of translating scripture to match what you want to believe and do. It will only snare your soul. I'm telling you this as a friend.

Good advice, I hope you are aware of exactly what you said.
What is your objective authority for interpreting scripture anyway?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Good advice, I hope you are aware of exactly what you said.
What is your objective authority for interpreting scripture anyway?

I'm sorry-I'm not sure what you're asking. If you could rephrase the question I'd be pleased to answer it for you.

 

[geocajun]

I'm sorry-I'm not sure what you're asking. If you could rephrase the question I'd be pleased to answer it for you.

no problem
In order to help you avoid falling into the error of [subjectivly] misinterpreting scripture you will be needing an objective authority to help you interpret it.
I am wondering, who is your source for objective definition of scripture?

 

[Tawhano]

Whitehorse Said:
Actually, it is. I even quoted an exact verse. Do you have a Bible? It says, "Sabbath."

Do I have a Bible? What kind of remark is that? So this is what you resort too when you have no intelligent rebuttal to offer is it? You show your ignorance and arrogance with that remark.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

Sabbaton = Sabbath Day

1. the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
a. the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
b. a single sabbath, sabbath day
1. seven days, a week

Katapausis = rest
1. a putting to rest
a. calming of the winds
2. a resting place
a. metaph. the heavenly blessedness in which God dwells, and of which he has promised to make persevering believers in Christ partakers after the toils and trials of life on earth are ended

Now which one do you suppose is used in Hebrews 4:9-10?

Hebrews 4:9-10 (KJV)
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

The word used in both places is Katapausis and not Sabbaton.

Now the topic of the passage you quoted was derived from the OT verse in Psalms 95:7-11 (see Hebrews 3:7) in which said:

Psalms 95:11
Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Which rest is this referring to? Here are some Hebrew defininitons:

Shabbath = Sabbath

1. Sabbath
a. sabbath
b. day of atonement
c. sabbath year
d. week
e. produce (in sabbath year)

manuwchah = rest
1. resting place, rest
a. resting place
b. rest, quietness

And which word was used in Palms 95? Not Shabbath but manuwchah

So lets recap shall we. You indicate that I must not have a Bible to read because the word Sabbath-rest was there when in fact we see that it is not. Not only is it not in the original but also it isn’t even implied in the original. Even with the word Sabbath erroneously placed in your bible it is still clear the rest wasn’t referring to keeping the Sabbath but a rest to come as promised. Israel was promised this rest and it makes it quite clear in Hebrews 3:11 that they didn’t enter into God’s rest.

Hebrews 3:11
So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.

Now we know that they kept the Sabbath so how did you come to the conclusion this was talking about keeping the Sabbath? Not from reading Hebrews that is certain.

Whitehorse Said:
I know people often feel like they're losing money if they rest on the Sabbath, but God is more than able to give you everything you need. And if He wants you to make a sacrifice for the kingdom, you aren't making any sacrifice at all-believe me. A few dollars isn't worth his displeasure-I can absolutely promise you that. I'm telling you this because this is a very serious issue.

I can’t remember the last time I worked on Sunday. Must be at least ten years ago. I find it humorous that you assume this was an issue with me. The fact is I am unemployed because of the wonderful job the government is doing.

Whitehorse Said:
Please don't make the mistake of translating scripture to match what you want to believe and do. It will only snare your soul. I'm telling you this as a friend.

As I have shown it is not I who is translating scriptures to fit what I believe but you. I guess I can’t blame you for coming to that conclusion seeing how it was written in your bible. My advice to you is to get a Parallel Bible or even download e-Sword.

You can drop the pretence and stop calling me friend. It is obvious your intent is to place a burden on me that you cannot bear yourself. No at all a friendly thing to do.

 

[Tawhano]

When Moses first went before the Lord in mount Horeb, before he was given the tablets of stone, God gave Moses the Ten Commandments and the laws, which he wrote in a book. In fact God first gave the Ten Commandments to all the people ‘in person’ (Exodus 20:1) before they were written down in stone.

Exodus 24:3-4
And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do. And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Later on God gave Moses the stones, which were later broken and written over again. So it is true that the Ten Commandments were separate from the law. So what were the Ten Commandments if they were not part of the law?

Exodus 34:27
And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

Deuteronomy 4:13-14
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

They were the Covenant that God made with Moses and the children of Israel. God made this covenant AND gave them laws to follow. Moral and ceremonial laws were covered in the statutes and judgements that Moses wrote down in the book which he taught Israel. The Ten Commandments written in stone was the Covenant God made with them.

Deuteronomy 5:1-3
And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, [even] us, who [are] all of us here alive this day.

God made this covenant with Israel and no other people. So how did the gentiles get into the picture?

Judges 2:20
And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;

Hosea 2:23And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou [art] my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God.

Romans 9:25As he saith also in Osee (Hosea 2:23), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

But what about the covenant that God made with Israel? What happened to the Ten Commandments?

Jeremiah 31:31-33
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

A new covenant, not written in stone but in the hearts.

Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

And what of the old covenant?

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 8:6-7
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

I chose to live in the new covenant.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

oops posted twice :o

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

no problem
In order to help you avoid falling into the error of [subjectivly] misinterpreting scripture you will be needing an objective authority to help you interpret it.
I am wondering, who is your source for objective definition of scripture?

Thank you for your gracious concern! My authority is the Holy Spirit. How 'bout you, my friend? Nice to meet you.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Do I have a Bible? What kind of remark is that? So this is what you resort too when you have no intelligent rebuttal to offer is it?

Uh, wow.

You show your ignorance and arrogance with that remark.

But how do you really feel?

As I have shown it is not I who is translating scriptures to fit what I believe but you. I guess I can’t blame you for coming to that conclusion seeing how it was written in your bible. My advice to you is to get a Parallel Bible or even download e-Sword.

Okay, so if this is one way of telling me you use the King James version, you're free to say that. I won't be offended by that. And thank you for the Strong's. But theres still the question of what other rest falls on the Seventh Day. (Yes, I'll get to the Strongs translation, and show you waht it says about words like works in verse 10: just be patient.) So even though NIV has a tendency to add a certain amount of "help," and maybe this is what your catholic friend was pointing to in asking me who my objective authority is, that still leaves the question unanswered. But I like the Greek and Hebrew lexicons better, as do you. So we'll get to that in a minute, after I give the background for using the argument you did, although the word work in Hebrew 4:10 is ERGON.

I'm gathering, and if I'm wrong you could simply state your perspective and avoid the harsh descriptors, you view this only as an exhortation to rest in God for our salvation, the rest that comes through belief. But how does that mean any part of the ten commandments is ceremonial? How does that mean you don't have to keep the Sabbath day? Are you free to take God's name in vain now, or to make idols, or to bear false witness, or to covet, or to commit adultery? Because my Bible, be it NIV or King James or the Revised version or any other version I have laying around here, along with my Strong's, says that if we love Him we will obey His commands. What commands are those? And why does James 2: 8 still teach us a need to obey the law? Since you feel I'm nothing short of ignorant, let me ask you a few questions that you may teach me. Why did Jesus make a distinction between fulfilling and abolishing the law in Matthew 5:17? And why Jesus still say in Matthew 7:12 to do unto others as we would have done unto us, for this sums up the law...and the prophets? And why all the exhortations to the churches in the book of Revelation to overcome in order to receive the crown of life(First three chapters)? What about the frequent admonitions to repent, or perish (Luke 13:3. Is this only repenting of unbelief? then what would you make of Revelation 2:5?)? Or James 2:14-26, particularly v. 18:

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James 2:18

It culminates in this verse: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26

The reason I mention all this is to make the point that the necessity for obedience implies an obedience to something. Would that be moral law? So I guess belief alone, that is, freedom from the law, does not give freedom from obedience to the law.

Next, what is your basis for considering the fourth commandment ceremonial? Why is that one so special? First we must establish that. Let's give you a chance to defend your own position.

Next, in reference to the scriptures we've been discussing lest you assume I am dodging that, is there another seventh-day rest that I should know about? Please answer this question for me, by the way-it isn't retorical. Remember, we're talking about whether or not we should be working on the sabbath. So while I understand the discomfort of having a publisher such as NIV add the word sabbath, is this not a good rendering? Or is there another seventh day rest from which we are to cease from ERGON? (NIV does this because not everyone would know this is what the Bible is referring to-forgive me for being insultingly unassuming.) But I'm scrutinizing the verses to see if this is a correct rendering. Some publishers are a bit more faithful in their exegesis and hermeneutics than others. NIV isn't perfect in some spots, but it's usually good.

Anyway, we have this in verse 10:

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For He that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own work, as god did from his.

Now for the Strongs:

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

Sabbaton = Sabbath Day

1. the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
a. the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
b. a single sabbath, sabbath day
1. seven days, a week

Katapausis = rest
1. a putting to rest
a. calming of the winds
2. a resting place
a. metaph. the heavenly blessedness in which God dwells, and of which he has promised to make persevering believers in Christ partakers after the toils and trials of life on earth are ended

Now which one do you suppose is used in Hebrews 4:9-10?

Granted, but it then says, as shown below, that he who enters that rest as you described, has ceased from His own ERGON. Which is translated:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Hebrews 4:9-10 (KJV)
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works [ERGON], as God [did] from his.

As I have shown it is not I who is translating scriptures to fit what I believe but you. I guess I can’t blame you for coming to that conclusion seeing how it was written in your bible. My advice to you is to get a Parallel Bible or even download e-Sword.

Unless there is another seventh day rest from which we cease from ERGON, I don't know how you the argument stands. But I invite you to enlighten me.

You can drop the pretence and stop calling me friend. It is obvious your intent is to place a burden on me that you cannot bear yourself. No at all a friendly thing to do.

Well, I am being a friend to you, but it was never implied that you are one to me. Actually I study the Bible endeavoring to obey it as comepletely as I can. I never used hot words like arrogant, etc. I never insulted you as you did me.
Seeing ye have purified your souls in the obeying of the truth through the spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently. I Peter 1:22

 

[Tawhano]

Whitehorse Said:
I never insulted you as you did me.

So you feel quite justified by your snide remark then? Okay, I can live with that. I know where you stand at least.

Whitehorse Said:
I'm gathering, and if I'm wrong you could simply state your perspective and avoid the harsh descriptors, you view this only as an exhortation to rest in God for our salvation, the rest that comes through belief. But how does that mean any part of the ten commandments is ceremonial? How does that mean you don't have to keep the Sabbath day?

This is not what I said at all. You are the one who said that verse was about keeping the Sabbath. I said the rest it was talking about is the rest we enter into when Jesus returns. We cease from our works when we are taken up into the clouds with Christ. I did not say that verse indicated we are not to keep the Sabbath or the laws. I addressed that issue separately.

Whitehorse Said:
And why does James 2: 8 still teach us a need to obey the law?

James 2:8-10
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Is that what you think James is all about? What do we know about keeping the law? First, we know that the law justifies no one.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

And James explains why that is true in those verses. If you keep the Ten Commandments but not the spirit of the law (love) you are guilty of breaking the whole law. All of James deals with the ‘new commandment’ of love that Jesus handed down to us.

Whitehorse Said:
Unless there is another seventh day rest from which we cease from ERGON, I don't know how you the argument stands. But I invite you to enlighten me.

When will be cease from our works? In the end. As I pointed out before the rest to be entered into is a promise of God. The keeping of the Sabbath is a commandment of the old covenant not a promise. By keeping the commandments and laws of the old covenant the Israelites were to enter into this promise of the rest. They did not keep the covenant so a new covenant was put into place. Now we are exhorted to keep this new covenant in order to receive the promise of entering into God’s rest. Nothing you have added refutes my position on what exactly the rest we are promised means.

 

[thetruthseeker]

So you feel quite justified by your snide remark then? Okay, I can live with that. I know where you stand at least.



This is not what I said at all. You are the one who said that verse was about keeping the Sabbath. I said the rest it was talking about is the rest we enter into when Jesus returns. We cease from our works when we are taken up into the clouds with Christ. I did not say that verse indicated we are not to keep the Sabbath or the laws. I addressed that issue separately.



James 2:8-10
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Is that what you think James is all about? What do we know about keeping the law? First, we know that the law justifies no one.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

And James explains why that is true in those verses. If you keep the Ten Commandments but not the spirit of the law (love) you are guilty of breaking the whole law. All of James deals with the ‘new commandment’ of love that Jesus handed down to us.



When will be cease from our works? In the end. As I pointed out before the rest to be entered into is a promise of God. The keeping of the Sabbath is a commandment of the old covenant not a promise. By keeping the commandments and laws of the old covenant the Israelites were to enter into this promise of the rest. They did not keep the covenant so a new covenant was put into place. Now we are exhorted to keep this new covenant in order to receive the promise of entering into God’s rest. Nothing you have added refutes my position on what exactly the rest we are promised means.

Hi Tawhano,

It appears that you are very confused about what the Old and New Covenant are. Please define what the Old and New Covenants are and I will respond.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[Godzman]

here we go, honor the Sabbath, doesn't mean you can't work on it, Anyway I would have to say that the sabbath is a day that people go out to eat, right, so if you believe it is wrong to work on sunday don't go out to eat, because guess what people there are working on Sundays and your adding to their sin.

Also it is silly to suppose that you can't mow your lawn on Sunday, I will mow my lawn when it needs mowed, on Sunday or Friday it doesn't matter.

You should take time in Gods rest all week anyway not just on Sunday.

 

[thetruthseeker]

here we go, honor the Sabbath, doesn't mean you can't work on it, Anyway I would have to say that the sabbath is a day that people go out to eat, right, so if you believe it is wrong to work on sunday don't go out to eat, because guess what people there are working on Sundays and your adding to their sin.

Also it is silly to suppose that you can't mow your lawn on Sunday, I will mow my lawn when it needs mowed, on Sunday or Friday it doesn't matter.

You should take time in Gods rest all week anyway not just on Sunday.

Hi Godzman,

What day does the Bible say is the Sabbath?

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthseeker

 

[Godzman]

Hi Godzman,

What day does the Bible say is the Sabbath?

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthseeker

I have heard it said that it is Sunday for Christians and Saturday for Jews, that seems pretty simple.

But to go into the actual history of it, I would say that it is on Saturday, but as Christians we celebrate the Resurection on Sunday. So Sabbath Saturday, Ressurection Sunday, but to me it is of minor consequence for everyday I try to honor God.

So honor him everyday and you will be alright

 

[thetruthseeker]

I have heard it said that it is Sunday for Christians and Saturday for Jews, that seems pretty simple.

But to go into the actual history of it, I would say that it is on Saturday, but as Christians we celebrate the Resurection on Sunday. So Sabbath Saturday, Ressurection Sunday, but to me it is of minor consequence for everyday I try to honor God.

So honor him everyday and you will be alright

Hi Godzman,

If I told you that I am a Christian and that God said or that history showed that it was now okay to kill, would you listen to me? Then why would you take the words of men above the Bible?

I will ask you the question again. What day does the Bible say is the Sabbath?

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[Godzman]

Hi Godzman,

If I told you that I am a Christian and that God said or that history showed that it was now okay to kill, would you listen to me? Then why would you take the words of men above the Bible?

I will ask you the question again. What day does the Bible say is the Sabbath?

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

As far as I know Satuday, the 7th day, but the 7th day for one group may not be the 7th day for another. So lets worship the Lord on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th,5th,6th,7th days of the weeks all year long, lets honor him with our praise.

 

[thetruthseeker]

As far as I know Satuday, the 7th day, but the 7th day for one group may not be the 7th day for another. So lets worship the Lord on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th,5th,6th,7th days of the weeks all year long, lets honor him with our praise.

Hi Godzman,

You seem to care alot about what others think. Will anyone but Jesus save you?

There is no mistaking it Saturday is the Sabbath (7th day). This is completely Biblical. If someone says that they want to keep Wednsday in place of the true Sabbath, would they be following the word of God?

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[Godzman]

Hi Godzman,

You seem to care alot about what others think. Will anyone but Jesus save you?

There is no mistaking it Saturday is the Sabbath (7th day). This is completely Biblical. If someone says that they want to keep Wednsday in place of the true Sabbath, would they be following the word of God?

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

All right I will honor God on Saturday, but it is a day, just when we get to heaven, the time wont matter, the day wont matter. Now maybe I am looking at this carously, but whether I worship on Sunday or Saturday doesn't bother God but rather he would have me worship and honor him everyday, yes the Sabbath can be argued for sunday but i am not no biblical scholar, just a college student who is following Gods call, do I see sunday or saturday as any different, no they are days like any other, but they are my opportunity to give honor to my Lord and Saviour.

 

[Tawhano]

Thetruthseeker said:

Hi Tawhano,

It appears that you are very confused about what the Old and New Covenant are. Please define what the Old and New Covenants are and I will respond.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

I am not confused at all. If you bothered to read my post you wouldn’t have to ask me to define what I believe is the old and new covenant.