Working on a Sunday

[geocajun]

then it's not the right page , sorry , But it is beetween that , I said I think , But I have read it , but don't remember the page quite well.

here is a Catholic Encyclopedia online. can you find it in there?
www.newadvent.org/cathen/

thanks!

 

[CrossMovement]

here is a Catholic Encyclopedia online. can you find it in there?
www.newadvent.org/cathen/

thanks!

I know this site but I want to go directly to page 806 and I can't find the place to type the number of the page

I can't type the page , can you tell me where can I type the page I want to search ??

 

[geocajun]

I can't type the page , can you tell me where can I type the page I want to search ??

In the upper left hand corner there is a text box. just type in the subject title such as "Sabbath" or "Sunday" and it will give you all the results.
I do not think it works on page numbers.
I am going to sleep. I will check this in the morning. goodnight!

 

[CrossMovement]

In the upper left hand corner there is a text box. just type in the subject title such as "Sabbath" or "Sunday" and it will give you all the results.
I do not think it works on page numbers.
I am going to sleep. I will check this in the morning. goodnight!

I know it work on page because I have found a site that were citing it by page but I can't refind it.

well have goodnight sleep. I will return maybe at 6 pm because i'm working so maybe you'll see me tommorrow

God Bless

 

[thetruthseeker]

When God made the earth he didn't make Sunday through Saturday. We did that. Man named the days. And what about Leap year? "Why are there seven days a week, twenty-four hours a day, sixty minutes in an hour and sixty seconds in a minute? There is no mathematical or astronomical reason for the number of days in a week as there is for the number of days or months in a year, which are determined by the movements of the sun and moon, respectively. The Babylonians were the first civilization to have a sevenday week. They created a seven day week so they could devote one day a week to worship the seven heavenly bodies that they knew--Mercury,Venus,Mars,Jupiter,Saturn,the moon and the sun. Later in history, other cultures had weeks varying in length from four to ten days, depending on the frequency of their markets. Roman farmers worked the fields for seven days and went to market on the eighth. Therfore, the Romans had an eight-day week. Our modern seven day week resulted from the spread of Christianity. In the Book of Genisis, God created the world in six days;on the seventh day (the Sabbath) He rested. The word "Sabbath" is from the Babylonian "Sabattu," a word that came into use during Jewish captivity under the Babylonians. The Jewish Sabbath is on Saturday, as was the Romans'. The Romans considered Saturday, ruled by Saturn, to be an unlucky day and thus chose it to be a day of rest. During the French Revolution in 1792, France established a ten-day week with three-week months. Each day had ten hours consisting of one hundred minutes and each minute was comprised of one hundred seconds. This system was extremely logical (as was the metric system, also established during the French Revolution). Alas, the system was used only thirteen years, until Napoleon took power and returned France to the old Gregorian system, in order to please the Pope. Regardless of the source today we all use the seven-day week. We can thank the Babylonians for the purely artificial divisions of seconds, minutes, and hours. Again, any number could have been chosen, but the Babylonians considered sixty a mystical number because no lower number could be divided by more numbers. Had the system of divisions been created recently, it would doubtless be based on a system of tens, as is the modern metric system. We have the Egyptians to thank for the crazy number of hours in a day. They divided the night up into twelve segments, corresponding with the rising of twelve different stars or constellations over the eastern horizon. They had ten divisions for daytime, representing the ten different positions of the sun, and two more divisions for dawn and dusk. This eventually became the twenty-four hour day that we are still using." This quote was taken from Don Voorhees book. The Book of Totally Useless Information. If our days and our hours are so changed how can we be sure of the day that is our Saturday is actually the Sabbath day meant to be observed? Just food for thought

Hi Schae7,

Remember Schae7 it's all about the Bible.

According to the Bible, Jesus created the first 7 day week.

Genesis 1;

Genesis 2:1-3 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Again, it was Jesus who created the 7 day week. This is what the Bible says. After all these years the Sabbath is still the seventh day (Saturday). In fact, there are clues everywhere even in our languages.

Russian for Saturday: Subbota
Bulgarian for Saturday: Subbota
Bohemian for Saturday: Sobota
Prussian for Saturday: Sabatico
Congo for Saturday: Sabbado
Spanish for Saturday: Sabado
Italian for Saturday: Sabato
Portuguese for Saturday: Sabado
Greek for Saturday: Sabbato
Slovak for Saturday: Sobata
Polish for Saturday: Sobota
Czech for Saturday: Sobota
Latin for Saturday: Sabbaton

These are all derivatives of the word "Sabbath." Look them up. They are all from modern languages. Jesus doesn't change nor His word.

The Catholic church itself used to keep the true Sabbath (Saturday) until it was influenced by pagan Rome to compromise. This is how we got Sunday sanctity. Sunday was set aside for sun worship in pagan Rome. Sun-day, get it? The Catholic church at that point thought that it would be easier to win pagans into the church if they switched holy days. This is the same with the idolatrous statues in the Catholic church. Some statues of the Roman gods were taken in by the Catholic church and given the names of saints.

Anyway, Jesus Himself expected Christians to be keeping the Sabbath after His death. The following is Jesus speaking about the future to His disiples:

Matthew 24:20-22 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I hope that this cleared up things.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[geocajun]

Hi Schae7,
The Catholic church itself used to keep the true Sabbath (Saturday) until it was influenced by pagan Rome to compromise. This is how we got Sunday sanctity. Sunday was set aside for sun worship in pagan Rome. Sun-day, get it? The Catholic church at that point thought that it would be easier to win pagans into the church if they switched holy days. This is the same with the idolatrous statues in the Catholic church. Some statues of the Roman gods were taken in by the Catholic church and given the names of saints.

historically Sunday was used for Pagan Sun worship, but that does not mean the Catholic Church is using a pagan day, but rather that she took the pagan day, and made it Holy again! Christ Jesus rose on Sunday!

Your constant baiting that the Catholic Church kept the sabbath is total nonsense. I have enough patristic quotes available to show you that Christians were worshipping and taking their day of rest on Sunday as the constant tradition of the Church.
Enough Catholic councils throughout history have spoken of it to demonstrate the teaching of the Church.
I will show you my sources if you show me yours.

Anyway, Jesus Himself expected Christians to be keeping the Sabbath after His death. The following is Jesus speaking about the future to His disiples:
Matthew 24:20-22 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

how exactly does that show that Jesus expected people to "keep the sabbath" ? Jesus only mentions the word sabbath as I have, and I am hardly endorsing it.

Finally, allow me to quote the Catholic Encyclopedia on the subject:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13287b.htm

The Sabbath in the New Testament

Christ, while observing the Sabbath, set himself in word and act against this absurd rigorism which made man a slave of the day. He reproved the scribes and Pharisees for putting an intolerable burden on men's shoulders (Matt., xxiii, 4), and proclaimed the principle that "the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" (Mark, ii, 27). He cured on the Sabbath, and defended His disciples for plucking ears of corn on that day. In His arguments with the Pharisees on this account He showed that the Sabbath is not broken in cases of necessity or by acts of charity (Matt., xii, 3 sqq.; Mark, ii, 25 sqq.; Luke, vi, 3 sqq.; xiv, 5). St. Paul enumerates the Sabbath among the Jewish observances which are not obligatory on Christians (Col., ii, 16; Gal., iv, 9-10; Rom., xiv, 5). The gentile converts held their religious meetings on Sunday (Acts, xx, 7; 1 Cor., xvi, 2) and with the disappearance of the Jewish Christian churches this day was exclusively observed as the Lord's Day. (See SUNDAY.)

 

[Schae7]

God did make the earth in 7days truthseeker. The Lords time is not our time so how are we to know the length of these days and how they relate to our current days? It is about the bible but I don't think there is anything wrong with a refrence to other sources. After all the information that the Catholic church originally observed a Saturday Sabbath certainly wasn't in the bible. I just gave a time line to the 7 day week. They Conquest in Babylon happened b.c. so it makes since that Jesus would have gone by the 7 day week. But I think you are making assumptions when you say God created the earth on a 24hr day/ 7day week. I don't think anyone has a way of measuring what Gods time was and is. The fact is that we don't know. The info I gave was history and in no way conflicted with what the bible says. Why not take that into consideration?
Please explain truthseeker, how your quote says that Jesus created the 7 day week? Where in the bible does it say this?

 

[Tawhano]

Where in the Bible am I, a Gentile, commanded to keep the Sabbath?

If I do not keep the law and I am punished then I must be under the law right? The Bible clearly tells me I am not under the law. If you say to me it isn’t because I broke the law that I am punished but that I broke the love command then you have answered the question for yourself. If I, a Gentile not having the law, in order to show my love for the Lord set aside Sunday to worship him then that is my law that I will be judged by.

 

[Schae7]

Tawhano, that is a tounge twister that I happen to agree with

 

[thetruthseeker]

God did make the earth in 7days truthseeker. The Lords time is not our time so how are we to know the length of these days and how they relate to our current days? It is about the bible but I don't think there is anything wrong with a refrence to other sources. After all the information that the Catholic church originally observed a Saturday Sabbath certainly wasn't in the bible. I just gave a time line to the 7 day week. They Conquest in Babylon happened b.c. so it makes since that Jesus would have gone by the 7 day week. But I think you are making assumptions when you say God created the earth on a 24hr day/ 7day week. I don't think anyone has a way of measuring what Gods time was and is. The fact is that we don't know. The info I gave was history and in no way conflicted with what the bible says. Why not take that into consideration?
Please explain truthseeker, how your quote says that Jesus created the 7 day week? Where in the bible does it say this?

Hi Schae7,

Read Genesis 1 and 2 again and you will find that we do know the length of days. "And the evening and the morning were the first day." This is definately not symbolic language. It is literal. If we spiritualize everything away there will be no gospel left in the Bible. Simple truths will become the most complex. Did Jesus symbolically create the Earth? Did He create it through evolution? No. Absolutely no.

God created the Earth in a literal 6 days and rested on the 7th day. This is why Israel celebrated a literal 7th day from the beginning.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[Schae7]

Good point. Thank you.

 

[thetruthseeker]

Where in the Bible am I, a Gentile, commanded to keep the Sabbath?

If I do not keep the law and I am punished then I must be under the law right? The Bible clearly tells me I am not under the law. If you say to me it isn’t because I broke the law that I am punished but that I broke the love command then you have answered the question for yourself. If I, a Gentile not having the law, in order to show my love for the Lord set aside Sunday to worship him then that is my law that I will be judged by.

Hi Tawhano,

Genesis 20:8-11, Hebrews 4:4-8...

All "Christian" Gentiles are spiritual Jews, according to the Bible. Abraham is the father of all Christians. Did you not know this?

Yes "that is my law that I will be judged by" that is your law not Jesus'. It was Jesus who wrote the 10 Commandments.

Read the Old Testament and then you will better understand the New Testament Tawhano. The New Testament builds on the Old Testament. For instance if you studied the Old Testament carefully you will realize what was and what was not the "Law of Moses."

Again, you can read the BIble from Genesis to Revelation and not find that Jesus or any righteous person in the Bible commanded that the Sabbath (Saturday) would be changed or voided. Just one verse is all you need to prove the point. It's not there, because that was never Jesus' intention.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Hi Whitehorse,

What day do you understand to be the Sabbath, Sunday or Saturday?

Don't forget the verse in between:

Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Compare that to:

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is , and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

and you get:

Old Testament (7th day) + New Testament (7th day) = 7th day (Saturday)

Thank you.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

I've been thinking very heavily about that. I know all the reasons why the Sabbath was changed, but what doesn't sit right with me lately is, did anyone have a right to change it? Did Jesus' Sunday resurrection necessitate the change? I have doubts about it, because this epistle was written after Jesus' ascention. That leaves me with one question, okay, two questions: Why is there no biblical record of this change, and who did the changing under what authority? That's been really bothering me lately.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

All Churches with valid Apostolic Succession (Catholic and EO) do consider Sunday to be the Lords Day in fullfilment of the sabbath and we take Sunday as our day of rest.
Are we then the "Mark of the beast" ?

I'm not sure about the validity of any document that changes an essential law of worship. Moreover, it is our obedience to the Bible rather than succession that pleases the Lord.

 

[Tawhano]

thetruthseeker said:
Read the Old Testament and then you will better understand the New Testament Tawhano.

What arrogance you portray with that statement.

thetruthseeker said:
All "Christian" Gentiles are spiritual Jews, according to the Bible. Abraham is the father of all Christians. Did you not know this?

Where can I find that "Christian" Gentiles are spiritual Jews in the Bible? Abraham was not a Jew. We are heirs of Abraham by way of the promise, yes, but that was of faith and not through the law.

Romans 4:3-5
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Did we become Christ’s through the law? Where in the law does it command us to be baptized? Where in the law are we commanded to wait upon the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Where in the law are we commanded to faith in Christ? As heirs we did not inherit the law from Abraham, we inherited the promise through faith.

thetruthseeker said:
Again, you can read the BIble from Genesis to Revelation and not find that Jesus or any righteous person in the Bible commanded that the Sabbath (Saturday) would be changed or voided. Just one verse is all you need to prove the point. It's not there, because that was never Jesus' intention.

In reading from Genesis to Revelation you cannot find where I, a Gentile, am commanded to keep the laws and you have not shown me one valid reason to do so.

Galatians 6:13
For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

The book of Ephesians deals with this subject. Look at the first three chapters especially. Also Romans 11:1-24, which amplifies the parable of the vine and the branches.

As far as keeping the law, it is first important to distinguish between ceremonial laws which were fulfilled in Jesus, and moral laws that are still to be kept. One tragic error so prevalent in many churches today is that freedom from the law means feedom from obedience to the law. We haven't been freed from obedience, but from the punishment of the law, for it is written:

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in His love.John 15:9-10.

We can see from this verse that Jew or gentile does not matter, but whether or not we are under the grace and covering of Christ, and this is how we remain in Him. Although we are to keep moral law, no one is to keep ceremonial law, Jew or Gentile, because we now have freedom from this in Christ. We are not to return to a covenant of works.

As it is written: Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you. Galatians 2:3-5

Blessings.

 

[thetruthseeker]

The book of Ephesians deals with this subject. Look at the first three chapters especially. Also Romans 11:1-24, which amplifies the parable of the vine and the branches.

As far as keeping the law, it is first important to distinguish between ceremonial laws which were fulfilled in Jesus, and moral laws that are still to be kept. One tragic error so prevalent in many churches today is that freedom from the law means feedom from obedience to the law. We haven't been freed from obedience, but from the punishment of the law, for it is written:

As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in His love.John 15:9-10.

We can see from this verse that Jew or gentile does not matter, but whether or not we are under the grace and covering of Christ, and this is how we remain in Him. Although we are to keep moral law, no one is to keep ceremonial law, Jew or Gentile, because we now have freedom from this in Christ. We are not to return to a covenant of works.

As it is written: Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you. Galatians 2:3-5

Blessings.

Hi Whitehorse,

Great points.

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Thanks, Truthseeker. I'm enjoying your posts, too.

Tawhano, I just wanted to give you a couple of verses in answer to your question about the New Testament requirement of keeping the Sabbath. I hope it helps.

Hebrews 3 & 4, but I will put a couple of specific verses here: There remains, then, a sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His. Hebrews 4:9-10

Blessings to you.

 

[Tawhano]

Whitehorse Said:
The book of Ephesians deals with this subject. Look at the first three chapters especially. Also Romans 11:1-24, which amplifies the parable of the vine and the branches.

I’m confused here, what subject do you think Ephesians deals with? Sunday worship? I don’t see it.

Whitehorse Said:
As far as keeping the law, it is first important to distinguish between ceremonial laws which were fulfilled in Jesus, and moral laws that are still to be kept.

I can see how you are able to distinguish which are ceremonial laws but how do you separate which ones are moral laws? For example the Sabbath is ceremonial but is included in the Ten Commandments, which is mostly moral. Also you need to consider that there is a difference between a law and a commandment. In John 15:9-10 Jesus makes a distinction between his commandments and God’s commandments. I believe the Bible is clear that the laws have been fulfilled and no longer applicable to the new covenant that Jesus brought to us but that the commandments that Jesus gave us are the commandments to live by.

Whitehorse Said:
Tawhano, I just wanted to give you a couple of verses in answer to your question about the New Testament requirement of keeping the Sabbath. I hope it helps.

The 'rest' talked about in Hebrews is not about keeping the Sabbath. The rest it is referring to is when Jesus returns and frees us from this fleshly world. This rest is coming, it is not here now as you can see from reading further down the verses. If it was already here and it was the Sabbath you would not need to labor to enter into that rest.

Hebrews 4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

[geocajun]

I'm not sure about the validity of any document that changes an essential law of worship. Moreover, it is our obedience to the Bible rather than succession that pleases the Lord.

The same Apostolic Churches are who God used to give us the sacred scriptures.
If you toss out the Succession - how can you possible see scripture as trustworthy? - surely not because it says it is...