Words that Calvinists IGNORE

[nill]

chestertonrules:
You can go to any poverty stricken, disease laden hell hole in the world and you will find Catholics there sharing the love of Jesus.​

Yes, I do know where to find a bunch of Catholics in just such a place as you described ("hell hole"); could be wrong, but I do believe you call it "Mass."

If you wish to keep slinging mud and making sweeping generalizations, we can continue acting like four-year-olds with you. Or you can grow up, whatever.

chestertonrules:
We are required to good works if we are to be followers of Christ.

Denying this reality, which is what Calvinism does, is dangerous for the individual and for Christianity in general.​

What Calvinism denies is that we must do good works in order to become saved. That's, in effect, saying that Christ's work was not enough to save a person, that we must add more to "Christ alone" being our savior. (That is, you preach, "Christ alone is the savior of sinners + our works = salvation," which is simultaneously horrific and utterly arrogant.) Actual saving is the Holy Spirit's job, not ours. However, Calvinism does not deny and never has denied that good works are necessary after we have become saved. If you think Calvinism denies that, you are truly off your rocker.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I wasn't talking about you personally.

Can you name one Calvinist hospital?

Yes, the famed Presbtyerian St. Luke's Hospital in New York City. There are multitudes more, but since you asked for one, there is one for you.

[/quote=chestertonrules;47096813] How about Catholic?[/quote]

Mercy Hospital

[/quote=chestertonrules;47096813]Do you know of anything comparable to Catholic Charities in the Calvinist world?[/quote]

Yes, I do.

[/quote=chestertonrules;47096813]You can go to any poverty stricken, disease laden hell hole in the world and you will find Catholics there sharing the love of

The reason I bring these things us is to expose the potential danger in Calvinism which attempts to separate our works from the gospel.[/quote]

Please define what this "potential danger" is and the consequences of it.

[/quote=chestertonrules;47096813]We are required to good works if we are to be followers of Christ.[/quote]

Who requires us to to do good works?

[/quote=chestertonrules;47096813]Denying this reality, which is what Calvinism does, is dangerous for the individual and for Christianity in general.[/quote]

How is it dangerous for the individual and for Christianity in general and what are the consequences of such danger?

Thank you for your simple, direct questions. I hope you find mine as simple and direct and as easy to answer.

 

[justsurfing]

Luke 16:15He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.

Who gives GOD the glory for their salvation?? Who ADMITS they were a sinner ~~ desperately wicked ~~ incapable of anything good??

God is not mocked. It is not the gospel of Jesus Christ to attribute salvation to anything but the grace of God!!

Each of us, like all mankind, are sinners - desperately wicked ~~ incapable of anything good.

The glory for our salvations belongs completely to God.

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

 

[heymikey80]

I wasn't talking about you personally.


Can you name one Calvinist hospital?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="presbyterian+hospital"
2,230,000 hits

How about Catholic?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="catholic+hospital"
134,000 hits

For a group many multiples of our size, it seems a poverty.

Do you know of anything comparable to Catholic Charities in the Calvinist world?

In a per capita comparison of size? What would you like to compare?

You can go to any poverty stricken, disease laden hell hole in the world and you will find Catholics there sharing the love of Jesus.

Wonderful. We'll see each other in Uganda, Sudan, Ethiopia, India, Bosnia, Iraq, Lebanon, China, North Korea.

 

[justsurfing]

Hi chestertonrules,

It's just plain biblical truth to know we are sinners who are desperately wicked and incapable of doing anything good. It's biblical truth to know we were saved completely by God's grace... and it wasn't that we had any goodness in us that makes us "better" than those who do not receive such grace in this life. Nor do our works earn our way to Heaven.

This is sounding like "My church is better than your church." in a kind of "My dad can beat up your dad." attempt to deflect attention from what really matters: the truth of God's Word. I hope we can go back to discussing scripture.

Calvinism is very simply basic Christianity and biblical faith in God. We're all sinners, chestertonrules. That's the fact. And as sinners, we depend completely on God's mercy to have grace upon us to save us out of so desperately wicked a state of sin we are really in. It's God's Word. We just believe God's Word.

It's sin, chestertonrules. It's the truth and reality of sin and man's fall from grace. Until we all face and admit our sin, maybe we really can't be at peace with God's mercy.

Grace and peace.

I wasn't talking about you personally.


Can you name one Calvinist hospital?

How about Catholic?

Do you know of anything comparable to Catholic Charities in the Calvinist world?

You can go to any poverty stricken, disease laden hell hole in the world and you will find Catholics there sharing the love of Jesus.


The reason I bring these things us is to expose the potential danger in Calvinism which attempts to separate our works from the gospel.

We are required to good works if we are to be followers of Christ.

Denying this reality, which is what Calvinism does, is dangerous for the individual and for Christianity in general.

 

[Ormly]

Again, what is meant by you when speaking of "goodness" because everyone knows man can't save himself by his own goodness which doesn't mean man can't do good deeds that find favor with God. So how about making some distinctions between man's capability to civilized righteousness that pleases God and the righteousness that man can never attain by his own effort for his salvation; that would be as "filthy rags" to be sure?

 

[justsurfing]

Hi Ormly...Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Grace and peace.

 

[nill]

justsurfing to chestertonrules:
This is sounding like "My church is better than your church." in a kind of "My dad can beat up your dad." attempt to deflect attention from what really matters: the truth of God's Word. I hope we can go back to discussing scripture.

Calvinism is very simply basic Christianity and biblical faith in God.​

Agreed.

You know it's a sign of insecurity when you have to start off by insulting an entire group of people. We don't go picking fights or hurling numerous insults as a rule.

 

[Ormly]

Hi Ormly...Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Grace and peace.

Thats true. Abram had faith in God before God ever chose him. If fact everyone God ever chose had faith in Him.

Think about it before saying God blessed them with something special that they could believe, because He didn't.

 

[Hismessenger]

For all who say that God isn't in control and does what He wills for His purpose and why, I copy this scripture;

Dan 4:17This matter [is] by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Calvin understood this and didn't allow what He thought, leaning to His own understanding, to cause Him to err in denial of the almighty God. He does what He wants, how He wants, to whom He wants, when He wants with greater wisdom then man could ever hope to grasp. What He does, He does for His reasons and there is no one to say that He can't, wont, is going against His word or whatever seems to be reasonable to us for His thoughts are so far removed from ours that we have no inkling of what it is that He is doing. Yes He tells us bits and pieces but He is more interested in our having faith, that He is the creator and knows what He is about.
Who can argue differently.

hismessenger

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thats true. Abram had faith in God before God ever chose him. If fact everyone God ever chose had faith in Him.

Think about it before saying God blessed them with something special that they could believe, because He didn't.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with eery spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, through the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." Ephesians 1:3-6

Hmmmmm. Pretty amazing stuff. Abram had faith before the foundation of the world so God could choose him.

 

[Ormly]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with eery spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, through the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." Ephesians 1:3-6

Hmmmmm. Pretty amazing stuff. Abram had faith before the foundation of the world so God could choose him.

Yes, all in the foreknowledge of God, . . . not to be confused with predestination.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Is there something I am missing here? When it says "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" and when it says "He predestined us to adoption as sons" does that no longer mean what it says in plain English, but simple means He foreknew us, but did not choose or predestine us? By the way, it says the same thing in plain Greek, too.

That would be like me going to a store and choosing to purchase an item and then later telling everyone that I really didn't choose to purchase it, but I knew that it would be mine because in due time the owner would give it to me of his own free will.

 

[Ormly]

Is there something I am missing here? When it says "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" and when it says "He predestined us to adoption as sons" does that no longer mean what it says in plain English, but simple means He foreknew us, but did not choose or predestine us? By the way, it says the same thing in plain Greek, too.

That would be like me going to a store and choosing to purchase an item and then later telling everyone that I really didn't choose to purchase it, but I knew that it would be mine because in due time the owner would give it to me of his own free will.

His foreknowledge opens up everything to Him.

"A man devises his way but God orders his steps." God foreknows all our ways and intent of our hearts and orders up our steps accordingly. Some unto eternal life, others to eternal damnation. Predestination is all wrapped up in that.

 

[JimfromOhio]

While I cannot ignore Romans 9 and Ephesians 1 which focuses on Predestination because we cannot selectively choose the verses that pleases us. Also, we cannot choose to twist the scriptures to to avoid the upsetting of knowing God's concept of election. In my position, God will not hold me responsible for my lack of understanding in the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty.

 

[chestertonrules]

Hi chestertonrules,

It's just plain biblical truth to know we are sinners who are desperately wicked and incapable of doing anything good. It's biblical truth to know we were saved completely by God's grace... and it wasn't that we had any goodness in us that makes us "better" than those who do not receive such grace in this life. Nor do our works earn our way to Heaven.

With God's grace we are all capable of doing good, and we must. If we don't, then we are not following Christ. God wants us to choose to do good with the help of his grace.

James says we are saved by works and not by faith alone. Jesus said that he who does the will of my father will gain eternal life. Paul says that God will render unto each of us based on our works, and those that do good will be granted eternal life.

There is no conflict in stating that we are saved by Grace and that we must cooperate with this saving grace to be saved.



This is sounding like "My church is better than your church."


I agree, and yes, I believe that the Church founded by Christ is better than all those founded by men. That's why I converted!

Calvinism is very simply basic Christianity and biblical faith in God. We're all sinners, chestertonrules. That's the fact. And as sinners, we depend completely on God's mercy to have grace upon us to save us out of so desperately wicked a state of sin we are really in. It's God's Word. We just believe God's Word.

Calvinism is a man made dogma that ignores most of the bible and distorts a few passages from Paul. The danger of Calvinism is that it absolves man of responsibility and turns God into a merciless creator.


It's sin, chestertonrules. It's the truth and reality of sin and man's fall from grace. Until we all face and admit our sin, maybe we really can't be at peace with God's mercy.

Agreed. However, that's step one, not the only step.

Grace and peace.

.

 

[nill]

Ormly:
His foreknowledge opens up everything to Him.

"A man devises his way but God orders his steps." God foreknows all our ways and intent of our hearts and orders up our steps accordingly. Some unto eternal life, others to eternal damnation. Predestination is all wrapped up in that.​

If God ordains everything that ever happens because of what we do (or will do), how is that not us ordaining everything that ever happens? My actions--in essence, I--become the first cause of all that exists... for my own life, anyway.

And if that's the case, shouldn't the proverb read, "A man devises his way, therefore God orders his steps"? The sort of contrast inherent in proverbs like this one wouldn't lead me to believe so.

 

[chestertonrules]

Ormly:
His foreknowledge opens up everything to Him.

"A man devises his way but God orders his steps." God foreknows all our ways and intent of our hearts and orders up our steps accordingly. Some unto eternal life, others to eternal damnation. Predestination is all wrapped up in that.
​

If God ordains everything that ever happens because of what we do (or will do), how is that not us ordaining everything that ever happens? My actions--in essence, I--become the first cause of all that exists... for my own life, anyway.

And if that's the case, shouldn't the proverb read, "A man devises his way, therefore God orders his steps"? The sort of contrast inherent in proverbs like this one wouldn't lead me to believe so.

God can use even our mistakes to his end.

We, however, are responsible for our actions.

We can choose to accept or reject God's grace.

God designed us this way.

 

[beloved57]

If God ordains everything that ever happens because of what we do (or will do), how is that not us ordaining everything that ever happens? My actions--in essence, I--become the first cause of all that exists... for my own life, anyway.

You do the things you do because God ordained them for you to do, wether bad or Good.

 

[beloved57]

." God foreknows all our ways and intent of our hearts and orders up our steps accordingly. Some unto eternal life, others to eternal damnation. Predestination is all wrapped up in that.

God ordains everything you do, and you order your steps accordingly..

jer 10:

23O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.


prov 9:

9A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.