Words that Calvinists IGNORE

[chestertonrules]

chestertonrules' claim: that salvation is earned by works, that God rewards salvation because of things people have done--basically, that salvation is not a gift.

He claims these Scriptures back up his claim. Rather:

Romans 2:6-7 is made null by Ephesians 2:9.
James 2:24 is made null by Romans 3:20-22.
Matthew 6:14 has no bearing on this argument.
John 6:53-54 has no bearing on this argument.
1 Peter 1:17 addresses only the "elect," people who are already saved.
Matthew 7:21 has no bearing on this argument.

These Scriptures do not back up his claim.

You must distort my position to support your own.

I believe:

God's grace is available to us.

We choose to accept or reject this free gift which was paid for by the blood of Jesus.

If we accept, we must pick up our cross and follow. If we want to remain in the love of Jesus, we must obey his commandments.

I believe that God will help us follow Jesus if we ask him for help.

I believe that God is merciful and just.

I don't believe that God picked some of us for hell and some for heaven by drawing our names out of a hat.

 

[heymikey80]

Actually, this scripture isn't going away:

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: [followed by a half-dozen direct statements that no one meets the requirements Paul set out in Romans 2:6-7]
​

I have never made the claim that man can save himself. We need God's grace. However, we must become followers of Christ.

If it's of grace, it's not of works.

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Rom 3:26
​

And faith without works is dead. Is dead faith saving faith?

Nope. But adding works to faith leaves faith just as dead. Works must result out of a living faith. Faith is the important thing. Works are the result that shows. That's what James said -- pointblank. Pressing anything more into James is pressing in something James didn't say.

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4-5
​

Is dead faith counted as righteousness? Jesus said that we must pick up our cross and follow. Jesus said that if we don't forgive eachother God won't forgive us. Our faith must be alive to be a saving faith.

The living faith of someone who does not work but trusts God, that is what's counted as righteousness. It's what Paul said. Care to object to Paul?

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ep 2:8-9
​

We are saved by the grace of God. I agree. God's grace calls to us, and we can accept it or reject it. If we accept this free gift, we must follow. Jesus said, if you obey my commandments you will remain in my love.

And Paul said "If it's by grace, then it's not by works." Rom 11:6

Paul also said, "I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed to be leaders) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain." Gal 2:2 This is no "second class Gospel" that Paul preaches. It's Christ's Gospel.

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to work what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on working. Rom 7:18-19
* * *
For God has worked what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not work. Rom 8:3
​

If you want to play dueling Scriptures, I assert my Scriptures trump yours, every way, every how. Because mine are focused directly on the subject. They're declarations with nothing that follows to soften them, but only to support them.

I agree with all the scriptures you posted. You ignore the scripture I posted as irrelevant. What does that tell you?

Not true at all. I don't ignore the Scripture you posted. You've tried to mitigate the meaning of these Scriptures above or simply ignore them -- you see the Scripture saying you keep on working sin, and yet you have no answer for it. You've seen that what we were commanded to do for righteousness, God did. You've said grace needs working God's commands to receive it -- Paul says something received by grace can't be received by works.

And you've said we must do works to remain in Christ's love. But from Paul, "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." Rom 3:28

Who's agreeing with the Scripture and who's not?

 

[heymikey80]

(dup)

 

[heymikey80]

Fact is, it's quite straightforward to put each back into context and to point out a number of different responses.

For Paul, he's often pointing out that God will judge everyone to be unworthy of eternal life by their own works. In order to do this, God will judge people by works (cf Rom 2, start of Rom 3). God has vowed to declare His people righteous, though (cf Rom 3:21) -- righteous by a faith apart from works.

For Jesus, He's speaking to people who know there's a connection between faith and works. And there is an important one, good works derive out of faith given time, opportunity, and the Spirit. What good are works that don't derive from faith? Split works certainly can't show a living faith as James wants! No, works derive out of faith.

For Peter, Peter is pointing out that in order to act as children of our Father we must have a concern for what He judges. But to press this into a condition for salvation is to make the Father not a Father any more, but our heavenly drill sergeant. No, when we rest we fly to our home with our Father.
​

So, you wanted the answers, go back and let me know if you have other exceptions that I've missed.

 

[beloved57]

We need God's grace.

But grace actually saves..not give a chance or opportunity to get saved, but actually saves..

eph 2:

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

acts 11:

11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

eph 2:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

grace through faith is the same as through grace in acts 11:

11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

This grace that saved the elect was given to them in christ before the world began..

2 tim 1:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

So your concept of needing grace is that it provides a chance or perhaps of getting saved, whereas the biblical teaching of grace is that it actually saves those its given to..

 

[chestertonrules]

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: [followed by a half-dozen direct statements that no one meets the requirements Paul set out in Romans 2:6-7]
​

If it's of grace, it's not of works.

God's Grace helps us follow. If we don't follow, if we don't bear fruit, if our faith dies because it has no works, if we look back after putting our hand to the plough, if we don't obey Jesus commandments, then we are not in the love of Jesus.

The bible is clear. God will help us follow through his grace. However, we must follow.

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Rom 3:26

The Jewish Law. True. Jesus also said that if we obey HIS commandments we will remain in his love. Jesus said that if we don't bear fruit we will be thrown into the fire.


Nope. But adding works to faith leaves faith just as dead. Works must result out of a living faith. Faith is the important thing. Works are the result that shows. That's what James said -- pointblank. Pressing anything more into James is pressing in something James didn't say.

Your words are not biblical. Jesus said IF we obey his commandments we will remain in his love. That is a condition.

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4-5

Paul is trying to explain Jesus to practicing Jews. He means one who works without Christ. Here's what Jesus said:


John 15
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

- John 15:1-6 "...Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he [the Father] takes away...Abide in me and I in you...I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit...If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

25"And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26"Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matthew 25
21"His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'

Matthew 25

40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Luke 6

47"Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:

48he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49"But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great."


You seem to elevate the words of Paul, which are often meant for a very specific purpose, above those of Jesus.

Calvinists seem to limit their bible study to just a few of Paul's letters.

That is very dangerous and it distorts the truth of Jesus.

 

[Hismessenger]

Chesterton,

The question to you then and for anyone else who wants to join in, What is it that we are suppose to do if it is not of works and what are the specifics that you are suppose to do in keeping with the word.

hismessenger

 

[chestertonrules]

Chesterton,

The question to you then and for anyone else who wants to join in, What is it that we are suppose to do if it is not of works and what are the specifics that you are suppose to do in keeping with the word.

hismessenger

I think the words of Jesus are very explicit.

We are to follow him. We are to love one another and forgive one another.

We can't do this alone, as I 'm sure you will agree.

We must access the grace of Jesus, freely offerred, in order to truly abide in him.

 

[heymikey80]

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: [followed by a half-dozen direct statements that no one meets the requirements Paul set out in Romans 2:6-7]
​

If it's of grace, it's not of works.

God's Grace helps us follow. If we don't follow, if we don't bear fruit, if our faith dies because it has no works, if we look back after putting our hand to the plough, if we don't obey Jesus commandments, then we are not in the love of Jesus.

No. You've leapt from the point that works show off a living faith, to the idea that works are required to keep faith alive. That's not what James said, and I reject that interpretation out of hand.

Works don't sustain faith. Faith sustains works.

Works are an outcome. Faith is a requirement.

The bible is clear. God will help us follow through his grace. However, we must follow.

The Bible is clear. As recipients of God's grace we follow. There's no "you can do it or not, but you really should do it to stay in." It's a declaration. "So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." Jn 3:8. Everyone does it.

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Rom 3:26

The Jewish Law. True. Jesus also said that if we obey HIS commandments we will remain in his love. Jesus said that if we don't bear fruit we will be thrown into the fire.

No. The Greek here is explicit. It's not even "the law" it's "works of law."

Paul demanded that no law could do this. "if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." Gal 3:21-22

Nope. But adding works to faith leaves faith just as dead. Works must result out of a living faith. Faith is the important thing. Works are the result that shows. That's what James said -- pointblank. Pressing anything more into James is pressing in something James didn't say.

Your words are not biblical. Jesus said IF we obey his commandments we will remain in his love. That is a condition.

Simple. Obedience isn't works. That's a shallow interpretation of the word "obedience", too shallow to encompass what's really meant by this word.

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4-5

Paul is trying to explain Jesus to practicing Jews.

Absurd. He's talking to Romans. They aren't the most obvious Jews around!

He means one who works without Christ. Here's what Jesus said:


John 15
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

- John 15:1-6 "...Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he [the Father] takes away...Abide in me and I in you...I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit...If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Not everything is soteriology.

Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Faith results in works.

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

25"And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26"Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Matthew 25
21"His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'

Not everything is soteriology.

Matthew 25

40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Back up.

Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Mt 25:31-32

He's already split them into two camps.

Then He judges them differently.

One group is condemned for the least thing they didn't do right.

One group is blessed for the least thing they did right.

They had exactly the same record of works. One is condemned, the other is embraced.

Luke 6

47"Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like:

48he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49"But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great."

Not everything is soteriology.

You seem to elevate the words of Paul, which are often meant for a very specific purpose, above those of Jesus.

Calvinists seem to limit their bible study to just a few of Paul's letters.

That is very dangerous and it distorts the truth of Jesus.

You seem to elevate the words of God over one another, which are often meant for very different purposes than you're directing them to mean.

This is indeed as you say very dangerous and it distorts the truth of the Gospel, which was affirmed before all by the confirmation of Paul by Jesus' Apostolic Ministry.

But it's not at all what Calvinists are doing. It seems it's what you're doing. I'm not pitting Jesus' words against Paul's. You are. I'm drawing from both Jesus and Paul to point this out. You seem to be focused on interpretations of Jesus that are antithetical to Paul. Let's read them as highly related. Then we can get an accurate picture of what's going on without limiting the words of either with dogma.

You can't split Paul from Jesus. They go together. If you can't comprehend them together, then you're missing something critical about the Gospel.

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith Pp 3:8-9
​

 

[chestertonrules]

Catholics believe all the bible.

Calvinists take one Chapter in Romans and create a new religion.

Calvinists claim our actions don't matter even though this notion is rejected throughout the bible.

Your attempt to explain away the crystal clear words of scripture is disappointing, but not surprising.

The truth is there for the taking, don't reject it.

 

[heymikey80]

Catholics believe all the bible.

Apparently you're not Catholic? Because you' haven't answered the questions I've put to you about taking all the Bible for what it says.

When James is talking about showing your faith by what you do, you've converted that into requiring works for salvation.

What's the sense in that?

Calvinists take one Chapter in Romans and create a new religion.

=Chuckle= I guess Rome gets the privilege of excluding that chapter. Calvinists have to integrate it with the rest of Scripture. And so we do.

We don't just chuck hard words, as you've done with this argument by trying to insert biting comments where you can't come up with a good answer.

We tackle them. "Semper Reformanda."

Calvinists claim our actions don't matter even though this notion is rejected throughout the bible.

Ah, more falsehoods from where I'm learning to expect them. No citations. Just another false statement. Your imagined opponent is getting the best of you.

Your attempt to explain away the crystal clear words of scripture is disappointing, but not surprising.

I'm not explaining away the words. But you are, promoting interpretations well beyond the ability of the text to support them.

The truth is there for the taking, don't reject it.

Back atcha.

 

[pastortimothy]

Brothers and Sisters,
Thank you for a compelling discussion. I'd like to respectfully proffer to you the possibility that the crux of our soteriological predicament can be wholly addressed in the words of the Son of the God of the Universe, to whom we, as Christians, are willfully beholden:

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. " [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]-John 3:16-17[/FONT]

These particular scriptures, almost cliche in today's Christian culture, are, in my opinion, the core of the promise of God, literally and contextually. It alludes to the idea that we are granted a choice to believe or not to believe and it outlines the benefit of belief as well as, through proper negative inferrence, the consequence of unbelief. Also designated are God's intentions; clear and undenyable.

Belief or unbelief in the substitutional atonement, by the Lamb of God, for our sin. That is, has been and will always be the single most crucial use of our God-given freewill in the whole of existence. Everything eventually boils down to that simple decision; I, humble and contrite, believe or I do not believe. Everything else speaks to holiness or fulfilling God's plan for you, here, on earth. But as far as entering into eternal relationship with the Father; well, you choose to believe or not.

Grace is a free gift that noboday deserves; nobody. Not Mother Theresa, not Saul of Tarsus, not me, not you; nobody. We can't do anything that makes us deserve grace. We can never, ever deserve it. We can only accept and receive it or not.

I don't care what you've accomplished, how many orphans you've saved, how many times you've washed dishes at church; you don't deserve it. Yet, people won't stop trying to deserve it.

Conversely, I don't care how many times you've stolen, murdered, coveted, lied or whatever before you believed; as a Christian, saved by grace, you are as white as snow--a new creation; you are no more deserving of the fire of eternal penalty than the most holy and pious of Christians who have served in the Lord's field their entire lives, without so much as a single moral blemish subsequent to their conversion.

This idea really speaks to the very nature of the transformational power of Christ Jesus in someone's life.

 

[chestertonrules]

Apparently you're not Catholic? Because you' haven't answered the questions I've put to you about taking all the Bible for what it says.

When James is talking about showing your faith by what you do, you've converted that into requiring works for salvation.

What's the sense in that?


You crack me up!!

Here's what James actually says:

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

=Chuckle= I guess Rome gets the privilege of excluding that chapter. Calvinists have to integrate it with the rest of Scripture. And so we do.

Catholics believe that Romans 9 is demonstrating God's sovereignty. God can do whatever he wants. We don't get to correct God. Got it. You turn it around by creating a God that is inconsistent with the rest of scripture. God CHOSE, in his sovereign will, to give us the freedom to love him or reject him. He CHOSE it, and it is clear throughout the bible.

You intentionally distort or ignore crystal clear words of scripture in order to conform the bible to your man made dogma.

 

[nill]

You're doing a fantastic job, heymikey80.

 

[heymikey80]

Here's what James actually says:

Yep, that's what James actually says. A faith that doesn't result in works is of questionable use, value, salvation. A faith that doesn't show its righteousness by working isn't useful. it's dead.

In fact, it always returns to the faith, not the works -- the faith is dead, the faith is useless, the faith works, and the person is shown to be righteous by what he's doing.

You can't possibly believe that Abraham wasn't righteous before God before he offered Isaac. Because Genesis itself says he was righteous before then. And you said you believe all the Bible.

So Abraham wasn't shown to be justified by his works until he offered Isaac. Yet he was justified by faith before Isaac was born.

Catholics believe that Romans 9 is demonstrating God's sovereignty. God can do whatever he wants. We don't get to correct God. Got it. You turn it around by creating a God that is inconsistent with the rest of scripture. God CHOSE, in his sovereign will, to give us the freedom to love him or reject him. He CHOSE it, and it is clear throughout the bible.

Except -- Romans 9 says nothing about giving us the freedom to choose. In fact it says solely He gave us mercy or hardens us -- one of which is certainly NOT a freedom to love or reject Him.

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,

"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
27And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." 29And as Isaiah predicted,

"If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah."
​

The words of God are speaking so loudly I can't hear the Catholic interpretation squeak by them.

You intentionally distort or ignore crystal clear words of scripture in order to conform the bible to your man made dogma.

These are crystal clear.

 

[chestertonrules]

I can't tell if you just aren't too bright or if you are a blatant liar.


You write:

Yep, that's what James actually says. A faith that doesn't result in works is of questionable use, value, salvation. A faith that doesn't show its righteousness by working isn't useful. it's dead.


After just reading the word of God, you go on to intentionally distort it:

24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.



Except -- Romans 9 says nothing about giving us the freedom to choose. In fact it says solely He gave us mercy or hardens us -- one of which is certainly NOT a freedom to love or reject Him.


I didn't say it did.

Here's what I said:

Catholics believe that Romans 9 is demonstrating God's sovereignty. God can do whatever he wants. We don't get to correct God. Got it. You turn it around by creating a God that is inconsistent with the rest of scripture. God CHOSE, in his sovereign will, to give us the freedom to love him or reject him. He CHOSE it, and it is clear throughout the bible

Most of the verses related to our free will and the need for us to make good choices is in other books, but not all.

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Is refusing to believe a choice? Who refuses, God, or man?

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Is this man's choice or God's?

 

[heymikey80]

I can't tell if you just aren't too bright or if you are a blatant liar.


You write:

Yep, that's what James actually says. A faith that doesn't result in works is of questionable use, value, salvation. A faith that doesn't show its righteousness by working isn't useful. it's dead.


After just reading the word of God, you go on to intentionally distort it:

24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Sorry, not bright enough to dim the Word of God.
Notice that little word James uses: "see"? It's not "understand". It's actually "see". You know, that thing you do with your eyes.

"see". It goes great with "show". Like fish with chips.

[heymikey again] Except -- Romans 9 says nothing about giving us the freedom to choose. In fact it says solely He gave us mercy or hardens us -- one of which is certainly NOT a freedom to love or reject Him.

I didn't say it did.

Here's what I said:

Catholics believe that Romans 9 is demonstrating God's sovereignty. God can do whatever he wants. We don't get to correct God. Got it. You turn it around by creating a God that is inconsistent with the rest of scripture. God CHOSE, in his sovereign will, to give us the freedom to love him or reject him. He CHOSE it, and it is clear throughout the bible

"God CHOSE, in his sovereign will, to give us the freedom to love him or reject him." This is denied by Romans 9. I appreciate that you believe it, but to say you're Scriptural and then to make a flat-out declaration of something that is denied in the Scripture you're citing -- that's innovative (or ... not). But it's inconsistent.

There's reason to assert that Paul is not saying God's handing out free wills.

What's more, Paul has the perfect opportunity to answer, "Hey, God's handing out free wills." That would've been the perfect semi-Pelagian response to this:

You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" Rom 9:19
​

But Paul doesn't say that. In fact, he clamps the lid down much tighter.

Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? Rom 9:20-21
​

I'm pretty sure that's what Augustine saw.

Most of the verses related to our free will and the need for us to make good choices is in other books, but not all.

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Are these the verses you wish to respond with regarding free will?

Hm. They don't say anything about freedom or will. They don't even say things about whether "you have a choice."

You're really willing to pit these verses against verses that explicitly state, "it's not of human will, or human work" and "not of human desire"?

Why would Calvinists be accused of ignoring the explicit statement, if non-Calvinists are ignoring the explicit statement?

Is refusing to believe a choice? Who refuses, God, or man?

People refuse God, people believe God. They do so at God's design. It's always a good idea to understand your opposition before you try to excoriate it. When you don't do so, you're working from a standpoint of ignorance. And prejudice.

So tell me, is a refusal a choice if you always refuse? If you never choose to buy a timeshare because you're predisposed against timeshares, does that mean you never had a choice?

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Is this man's choice or God's?

I doubt it's some autonomous choice, some decision that you're confronted with, yes. You realize there are no qualifications in Jesus' statement here. There's no, "If you notice you need to forgive ..." You're sunk on the first neglect of this command if this is a command with a choice. In fact your considering not to forgive -- that would be a sin itself, because Christ commands us to forgive, and harboring unforgiveness would be as sinful as lusting for a woman or thinking someone is a fool (as above).

Most versions of Calvinism slip this nasty knot, because this is a general statement of fact, not some "how to be forgiven." Forgiven believers forgive. So deductively, if you're not forgiving, your Heavenly Father will not be forgiving you.

 

[nobdysfool]

Chesterton, you come in here all full if vitriol and snarky rejoinders, and then wonder why no one takes you seriously, or wants to spend much time talking to you. You come in here slamming and slandering Calvinism, and then get all twisted up when the Calvinists respond in kind. You bring it on yourself. It's obvious that what you expect (unrealistically) is that when you've made what you believe to be refutation of Calvinism above all reproach, that the Calvinists are supposed to slap themselves in the forehead, and say "Why didn't I think of that?", and agree that you are the greatest theologian who has ever posted on any forum, seeing how that you have 'sliced and diced" Calvinism so completely and effortlessly. You expect Calvinists to just give up without a fight at your words of "wisdom", and tell you that you're right, and they've been wrong.

That's is a fantasy that has zero chance of coming to pass, because it is founded on a bed of half-truths, and outright lies and distortions. You must think we Calvinists have never heard these arguments before, ad infinitum, from others such as you who harbor secret delusions of grandeur. I assure you, we have heard arguments you've never even thought of. And we can dismiss them just as easily as we have yours. You are on the losing end and you know it. that's why the snark level in your posts has gone up. We see that all the time.

 

[beloved57]

I think the words of Jesus are very explicit.

We are to follow him.

Then you should believe these words..

Jn 10:

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jesus is confident that they do follow him..

This is because of the new covenant blessings of grace..

jer 32:

40And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Chesteron! What a pleasant surprise to run into you again. It has been quite a while. I trust that you have been well and I see that you have been busy.

Nobodysfool is actually correct. Your level of snarkiness has, indeed, reached a fever pitch that is really quite unbecoming to you. He is also quite accurate in telling you that thus far you have not presented a single argument or scripture that Calvinists have not effectively addressed before and there are many others that have probably yet to cross your mind.

My advice is to either concede defeat and become a Calvinist, giving up Catholic error in the process, or walk away in a sulk and commisserate with your buddies in the OBOB forum.