Words that Calvinists IGNORE

[justsurfing]

Hi chestertonrules,

Short answer. God is Sovereign. He took everything into consideration. He knew that man's heart is desperately wicked. He didn't stop working in the world...or we'd all be Hitlers or worse. Again, looking at any human being who isn't completely evil in actions... is just giving man glory for God's restraining Spirit. We'll see what man really is... when the Spirit lifts restraint and all reprobates blaspheme the Holy Spirit to become, spiritually, Satan incarnate through and through.

At that point, if any wants to defend man and accuse God... the truth and reality will be real clear. They will slaughter without mercy with nothing good in them left even in their souls... in full manifestation of Satan inside of them... and that's what God had mercy on... when He had mercy on you and me.

By God's grace, I'll remain placid... but it's hard for me to hear anyone accuse God like man has so many redeeming qualities. God isn't even given the glory for what He does to "make man look better than he is"... by God restraining externally the full manifestation of man's soul being filled completely inside with the spirit of Satan.

That's the monster, chestertonrules, you are defending as "good"... as you falsely accuse, imo... absolutely unequivocal personal opinion... a Perfectly Holy God who is 100% Love and Grace. Please stop believing man is good. Man is Satan's spawn... and we're going to see that real clear come the Tribulation period... when all hell breaks loose.. and what man really is apart from God... comes into full manifestation.


2 Thess. 2:3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

And consider all the verses of the evil of the spirit of antichrist ~~ which is the spirit of a man ~~ revealed throughout scripture and made manifest in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 13:18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

With all due respect, please stop glorifying man in the image of Satan -- to falsely accuse and slander God by accusing God of wrongdoing. God I would die for. Man?? What is man that God would love him??

That just shows you how Good God really is. Man capable of doing good and God "failed" to factor in how "meritorious" man really "is" of salvation according to the sinful nature?? I don't think God "missed" anything... nor has judged unjustly. It's His mercy and His love and His grace that He would die to save even one miserable wretch of a sinner... that's so amazing: Amazing Grace.

With all due respect... sometimes the problem we think is the problem isn't the problem. Sometimes it's our attitudes about the problem... because we don't have the same perspective... or understanding of God. We're in no position to judge Him ~~ nor any condition of holiness or goodness or righteousness... to be qualified to even lift our eyes to Heaven and ask for mercy. Only by grace can we do.. even that.


I worship God. I don't worship Satan... I don't worship the spirit of man. Please study the scripture, perhaps God will open your eyes and you will come to see...Satan's spirit and man's spirit... their true personhoods according to sin? Same difference. They're the express image of one another. And soon, someday.. we will see the full manifestation of Satan incarnate across the whole mass of unregenerate humanity: the beast.


Grace and peace.

I'll sum up my understanding in blunt terms, you can point out errors in my understanding if they exist:

1) From the beginning of creation God chose some men for salvation and some for hell with no regard for their intentions, words, thoughts, or deeds.

 

[nill]

Let's see what the bible says. You've already ignored Matthew 25 above which makes this case explicitly.

Here are more:

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Isn't that something we have to do?

1 Peter 1
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Matt 7
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Also, as I mentioned earlier, it's crucial to note in the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 that those who were admitted to the kingdom didn't even know there were serving Jesus when they helped the least of us.

All you've done is spew a bunch of Scripture out of context. Sorry, not good enough. You lose.

 

[beloved57]

Anyone reading this can see the difference.

Led is past tense, leading is present.

Led is accomplished, leading is not yet accomplished.

As I said you are distorting the truth and giving more praise to the creature than to the creator..

 

[chestertonrules]

Chestertonrules,

You say God created the lake of fire for the devil and his angels, planned the creation of every human being, PUT the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the center of the Garden... KNOWING most of humanity would not be recovered from the fall in this life.

God is 100% responsible for the creation of every human being He created knowing with full foreknowledge they would not be functionally recovered from the fall in this life.

God, in your view, by creating them with that full foreknowledge... predestined them to hell VIA creation, setting that tree in the center of the Garden and choosing to let Satan come into the Garden to tempt KNOWING also that if HE CHOSE to let Satan into the Garden ~~ eternal hell (from your pov) would be the predestinated result for the vast majority of all mankind.

That's no moral high ground. Same end result?? Same difference. God could have done things differently and effected a different result.

Grace and peace.

​

There is a huge difference.

For example, if there was a busy street , and I told my children not to play in the street, there is ahuge distinction between letting them play outside knowing that they could choose unwisely versus throwing them in front of a bus.

One of these two options is Calvinism.

 

[chestertonrules]

All you've done is spew a bunch of Scripture out of context. Sorry, not good enough. You lose.

That is false and you know it.

Feel free to provide evidence that these verses are distorted in any way.

Good luck.


- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Isn't that something we have to do?

1 Peter 1
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Matt 7
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Also, as I mentioned earlier, it's crucial to note in the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 that those who were admitted to the kingdom didn't even know there were serving Jesus when they helped the least of us.

 

[chestertonrules]

Short answer. God is Sovereign.



​

Do you believe a sovereign God is capable of creating us with the ability to make choices? Do you believe that a sovereign God might want his followers to freely choose to follow him?

 

[beloved57]

Do you believe a sovereign God is capable of creating us with the ability to make choices?

we make choices all the time, but they [the choices we make] are already determined by God..

 

[chestertonrules]

we make choices all the time, but they [the choices we make] are already determined by God..

The silliness of Calvinism in all its glory.

So sad.

 

[chestertonrules]

That is false and you know it.

Feel free to provide evidence that these verses are distorted in any way.

Good luck.


- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Isn't that something we have to do?

1 Peter 1
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Matt 7
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Also, as I mentioned earlier, it's crucial to note in the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 that those who were admitted to the kingdom didn't even know there were serving Jesus when they helped the least of us.

Still waiting for you to demonstrate how this scripture is out of context and therefore distorted.

 

[nill]

Are you playing the game called, "I'll spew out a huge list of verses, and it's your job to explain them"? If so, I'm not up for it. How about you play it, and defend your point? I asserted that your position was "that you believe your works earn you salvation, that God gives you salvation, that it's your due, that it's given because of what you've done," and rather than deny it, your defense was to spew out a bunch of verses without taking any effort to explain them. The burden of proof is on YOU.

I'm only going to take this crap from you for so long. Grow up, ffs.

 

[nill]

Oh, and please don't call me "beloved." The way you're using it mockingly and sarcastically cheapens the way it was legitimately used by Christians who cared about one another at one time.

 

[chestertonrules]

Are you playing the game called, "I'll spew out a huge list of verses, and it's your job to explain them"? If so, I'm not up for it. How about you play it, and defend your point? I asserted that your position was "that you believe your works earn you salvation, that God gives you salvation, that it's your due, that it's given because of what you've done," and rather than deny it, your defense was to spew out a bunch of verses without taking any effort to explain them. The burden of proof is on YOU.

I'm only going to take this crap from you for so long. Grow up, ffs.

Translation:

I can't answer because these verses conflict with my dogma.



Neal:
You can't refute the word of God.

 

[nill]

Your inability to answer my challenge proves that you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[chestertonrules]

Your inability to answer my challenge proves that you have no idea what you're talking about.

I already told you my position, which is biblical.

God gives us the opportunity to accept his grace, freely offered, and to put it into practice in our lives.

Simple enough. You can't accept this simple truth even though it is explicit in scripture.

Why?

This scripture isn't going away:

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Isn't that something we have to do?

1 Peter 1
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Matt 7
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Also, as I mentioned earlier, it's crucial to note in the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 that those who were admitted to the kingdom didn't even know there were serving Jesus when they helped the least of us.

 

[nill]

I already told you my position, which is biblical.

God gives us the opportunity to accept his grace, freely offered, and to put it into practice in our lives.

Simple enough. You can't accept this simple truth even though it is explicit in scripture.

Why?

This scripture isn't going away:

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Isn't that something we have to do?

1 Peter 1
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Matt 7
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Also, as I mentioned earlier, it's crucial to note in the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 that those who were admitted to the kingdom didn't even know there were serving Jesus when they helped the least of us.

I already told you my position, which is biblical. Yours is not. All those Scriptures actually prove my point, not yours. Therefore, your position is unbiblical, and it is wrong.

 

[chestertonrules]

I already told you my position, which is biblical. Yours is not. All those Scriptures actually prove my point, not yours. Therefore, your position is unbiblical, and it is wrong.

Too funny.

You are hopeless, but God loves you anyway. He isn't finished with you yet!

 

[nill]

chestertonrules' claim: that salvation is earned by works, that God rewards salvation because of things people have done--basically, that salvation is not a gift.

He claims these Scriptures back up his claim. Rather:

Romans 2:6-7 is made null by Ephesians 2:9.
James 2:24 is made null by Romans 3:20-22.
Matthew 6:14 has no bearing on this argument.
John 6:53-54 has no bearing on this argument.
1 Peter 1:17 addresses only the "elect," people who are already saved.
Matthew 7:21 has no bearing on this argument.

These Scriptures do not back up his claim.

 

[beloved57]

The silliness of Calvinism in all its glory.

So sad.

You dont understand who God is..

 

[heymikey80]

I already told you my position, which is biblical.

God gives us the opportunity to accept his grace, freely offered, and to put it into practice in our lives.

Simple enough. You can't accept this simple truth even though it is explicit in scripture.

Why?

This scripture isn't going away:

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Isn't that something we have to do?

1 Peter 1
17If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

Matt 7
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


Also, as I mentioned earlier, it's crucial to note in the parable of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 that those who were admitted to the kingdom didn't even know there were serving Jesus when they helped the least of us.

Actually, this scripture isn't going away:

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: [followed by a half-dozen direct statements that no one meets the requirements Paul set out in Romans 2:6-7]

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Rom 3:26

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4-5
​

nor this:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ep 2:8-9


For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to work what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on working. Rom 7:18-19
* * *
For God has worked what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not work. Rom 8:3
​

If you want to play dueling Scriptures, I assert my Scriptures trump yours, every way, every how. Because mine are focused directly on the subject. They're declarations with nothing that follows to soften them, but only to support them.

Even in the Sermon on the Mount, yours are preceded and followed by impractical possibilities for sinful human beings to match. Send me your tunic to prove me wrong. Quit looking at women "that way". Quit thinking people are idiots ... particularly us.

Or expect to be judged for your works -- and that harshly.

 

[chestertonrules]

Actually, this scripture isn't going away:

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: [followed by a half-dozen direct statements that no one meets the requirements Paul set out in Romans 2:6-7]


I have never made the claim that man can save himself. We need God's grace. However, we must become followers of Christ.


For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Rom 3:26

And faith without works is dead. Is dead faith saving faith?

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4-5
​

Is dead faith counted as righteousness? Jesus said that we must pick up our cross and follow. Jesus said that if we don't forgive eachother God won't forgive us. Our faith must be alive to be a saving faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ep 2:8-9

We are saved by the grace of God. I agree. God's grace calls to us, and we can accept it or reject it. If we accept this free gift, we must follow. Jesus said, if you obey my commandments you will remain in my love.


For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to work what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on working. Rom 7:18-19
* * *
For God has worked what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not work. Rom 8:3
​

If you want to play dueling Scriptures, I assert my Scriptures trump yours, every way, every how. Because mine are focused directly on the subject. They're declarations with nothing that follows to soften them, but only to support them.

I agree with all the scriptures you posted. You ignore the scripture I posted as irrelevant. What does that tell you?