Women preachers

[DeaconDean]

Weren't there women priests/deacons in the early Church?

[FONT=Verdana,sans-serif]“Love the Lord with all your heart, and with all your soul,
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[FONT=Verdana,sans-serif]and with all your MIND”--Matt 22:37

He is risen! Alleluia!
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[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,sans-serif]Question: [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,sans-serif]Weren't there women priests/deacons in the early Church? Wasn't Phoebe identified in the book of Romans as a deacon?

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[FONT=Verdana,sans-serif]I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is (also) a minister of the church at Cenchreae,--Romans 16:1
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[FONT=Verdana,sans-serif]The above passage in Romans does indicate that a woman, Phoebe, was a deacon in the Church. (The word used in the original Greek text for "minister" is [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,sans-serif]diakonos, from which we get the word "deacon".) However, the role of a deacon in the early church should not be understood as an ordained role similar to the diaconate role we have in the church today. Phoebe was a minister or servant who assisted the clergy in the liturgy, but was never ordained. {emphasis here mine}

To be sure, women served a role in the early church, just as they do now. However, it was never the case that women served as priestesses, deaconesses or in any ordained capacity.

Modern day media portrayals of the Church in history usually fall into two categories:[/FONT]
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-those that present the Church as oppressive to women with the male priesthood/hierarchy as the Eternal Oppressors.

-those that claim (as in the above question) that initially the Church had priestesses, but that elite, powerful and evil men usurped this role of women and started their own misogynistic agenda against women (ala The DaVinci Code).

Neither is true.

Church teaching has always promoted the dignity and worth of women, especially in contrast to the pagan cultures in which they enculturated. That Catholic men have, no doubt, oppressed women in the name of the Church is a sad testament. However, how people in the Church have practiced their faith (or lack thereof) should not be confused with what the Church has taught. It is the difference between orthopraxy (living out of the faith) and orthodoxy (the teaching of the faith.) The orthodoxy of the Church has never promoted oppression to women. In its orthopraxy, sadly, it has.

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3 Minute Apologetics: Weren't there women priests/deacons in the early Church?

Strange, this agrees with SeventhValley's own souce which rendered "diakonos" as servant.

Romans 16:1 Greek Texts and Analysis

Colossians 1:7 Greek Texts and Analysis

1 Timothy 4:6 Greek Texts and Analysis

Three times "diakonoV" rendered as "servant".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Maryland Girl]

I don't know, maybe I just don't want to believe that, but I need to. So when asking for prayer requests, women should stay silent yes?

The NT does not prevent women from praying. But it does keep them from teaching men in coed church meetings.

 

[SeventhValley]

I have proven from historical sources equal with the time the Bible was canonized that women were ordained Deaconesses. You choose to ignore this. Phobe was a Deacon you admit this.

Not to mention that Timothy and Acts are snapshots of CHurch life that require context. The Bible is not the Koran it did not drop out of heaven to guide us. It is suppose to give us a snapshot of Christs love for us. That is about it.

My new thread probes that if Overseers have special access to God then the Catholics are correct in their Saint and priesthood theology. In which case the Baptists are heretical.

 

[SeventhValley]

The NT does not prevent women from praying. But it does keep them from teaching men in coed church meetings.

Not true if you want to be literal instead of the true version of women teaching gnosticism, then their is no talking at all and womens prayer must be done in your head.

 

[SeventhValley]

Of course Paul says women Propehsise in the Church with is authoritative. The truth is he contradicts himself and it is a guessing game to put together what is really happening. Again the Bible is not the Koran given whole at one time. It has context and is not a all authoritative guide but is just a snapshot of time showing God's love.

Also even Dean admits there were women Deacons he says they were not ordained(which is false).So if he dose not have women Deacons equal to the number of men in his church he is against God's words according to his own teaching.


I am continuing this in my pastor thread. See you all there.

 

[SeventhValley]

I almost forgot Acts and Timothy were post 100 A.D. writings. They were both second century. Romans which has Phoebe the female deacon was a first century 60 A.D. writing and thus is to be trusted more.

O.k. to the Pastor/Elder thread.

 

[DeaconDean]

I almost forgot Acts and Timothy were post 100 A.D. writings. They were both second century. Romans which has Phoebe the female deacon was a first century 60 A.D. writing and thus is to be trusted more.

O.k. to the Pastor/Elder thread.

Well, you've proved that 1 Tim. was written well after the Apostles death.

That makes only five of his epistles that were actually written by him.

If the majority of Paul epistles were written after his death, and they are included in the canon of scripture, then scripture is wrong. It is in error. It is fallible.

If it is all that, then it is not to be trusted. None of it.

It would be a "hit-or-miss" situation using scripture.

That also means that Baptists are wrong when they penned this:

1. The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience;1 although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and His will, which is necessary unto salvation.2 Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times, and in divers manners to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His church;3 and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment, and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.4
   
2. Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testament, which are these:
   
   Of the Old Testament:
   
   GenesisExodusLeviticusNumbersDeuteronomyJoshuaJudgesRuth1 Samuel2 Samuel1 Kings2 Kings1 Chronicles2 ChroniclesEzraNehemiahEstherJobPsalmsProverbsEcclesiastesSong of SolomonIsaiahJeremiahLamentationsEzekielDanielHoseaJoelAmosObadiahJonahMicahNahumHabakkukZephaniahHaggaiZechariahMalachi
   Of the New Testament:
   
   MatthewMarkLukeJohnActsRomans1 Corinthians2 CorinthiansGalatiansEphesiansPhilippiansColossians1 Thessalonians2 Thessalonians1 Timothy2 TimothyTitusPhilemonHebrewsJames1 Peter2 Peter1 John2 John3 JohnJudeRevelation​
3. The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the canon (or rule) of the Scripture, and therefore are of no authority to the church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of than other human writings.5
   
4. The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man, or church, but wholly upon God, (who is truth itself) the author thereof; therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.6
   
5. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church of God, to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scriptures; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, and the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole, (which is to give all glory to God) the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, and many other incomparable excellencies, and entire perfections thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet, notwithstanding our full persuasion, and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.7
   
6. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down, or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture; unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men.8 Nevertheless we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word,9 and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies; which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.10
   
7. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all;11 yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of ordinary means, may attain to a sufficient understanding of them.12
   
8. The Old Testament in Hebrew, (which was the native language of the people of God of old),13
   and the New Testament in Greek, which (at the time of the writing of it) was most generally known to the nations, being immediately inspired by God, and by His singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them.14 But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto; and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read15 and search them,16 therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar [ie. common] language of every nation, unto which they come,17 that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship Him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may hope.18
   
9. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture, (which is not manifold but one) it must be searched by other places, that speak more clearly.19
   
10. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit, into which Scripture so delivered, our faith is finally resolved.20

Footnotes:

1. 2Ti 3:15-17; Isa 8:20; Lk 16:29,31; Eph 2:20.
2. Ro 1:19-21; 2:14-15; Ps 19:1-3.
3. Heb 1:1.
4. Pr 22:19-21; Ro 15:4; 2Pe 1:19-20.
5. Lk 24:27,44; Ro 3:2.
6. 2Pe 1:19-21; 2Ti 3:16; 2Th 2:13; 1Jn 5:9.
7. Jn 16:13-14; 1Co 2:10-12, 1Jn 2:20,27.
8. 2Ti 3:15-17; Gal 1:8-9.
9. Jn 6:45; 1Co 2:9-12.
10. 1Co 11:13-14; 14:26,40.
11. 2Pe 3:16.
12. Ps 19:7; 119:130.
13. Ro 3:2.
14. Isa 8:20.
15. Ac 15:15.
16. Jn 5:39.
17. 1Co 14:6,9,11-12,24,28.
18. Col 3:16.
19. 2Pe 1:20-21; Ac 15:15-16.
20. Mt 22:29,31-32; Eph 2:20; Ac 28:23.​

philadelphia confession-chapter 1

Thank you for showing that this statement:

The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience;

Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testament, which are these:

Of the Old Testament:

GenesisExodusLeviticusNumbersDeuteronomyJoshuaJudgesRuth1 Samuel2 Samuel1 Kings2 Kings1 Chronicles2 ChroniclesEzraNehemiahEstherJobPsalmsProverbsEcclesiastesSong of SolomonIsaiahJeremiahLamentationsEzekielDanielHoseaJoelAmosObadiahJonahMicahNahumHabakkukZephaniahHaggaiZechariahMalachi
Of the New Testament:

MatthewMarkLukeJohnActsRomans1 Corinthians2 CorinthiansGalatiansEphesiansPhilippiansColossians1 Thessalonians2 Thessalonians1 Timothy2 TimothyTitusPhilemonHebrewsJames1 Peter2 Peter1 John2 John3 JohnJudeRevelation​

​

Is worthless and meaningless.

God Bless You.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I have proven from historical sources equal with the time the Bible was canonized that women were ordained Deaconesses. You choose to ignore this. Phobe was a Deacon you admit this.

And I used your own Greek source to show you were wrong.

God Bless

Till all are one

 

[Maryland Girl]

Again the Bible is not the Koran given whole at one time. It has context and is not a all authoritative guide but is just a snapshot of time showing God's love.

Very interesting. So the bible is not the authoritative guide to Christianity now? But Pliny the Elder and Younger are?

You're on your own with that one.

 

[Hupomone10]

I almost forgot Acts and Timothy were post 100 A.D. writings. They were both second century. Romans which has Phoebe the female deacon was a first century 60 A.D. writing and thus is to be trusted more.

O.k. to the Pastor/Elder thread.

I haven't forgotten, just a little rusty and had to look it up: 1 & 2 Timothy were written between A.D. 62 - 66. Acts same.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread is closed for review.

UPDATE: Thread will remain closed due to thread getting out of hand with rule violations.