Women in Pulpit- Any Denomination

[ToBeInChrist]

So we understand 'appropriately considering the context' differently. This has been established. We apply context differently in our interpretations.

On all sides let us not be clanging symbols as we discuss our knowledge. Knowledge too easily puffs up. Love does not enjoy looking for other's faults, but gladly forgives and extends mercy.

 

[Paul 5]

So because God is holy, and Paul says it is a command of God, we should ignore what Paul means, ignore everything we know about the context and just wave the verses around unthinking slogans like you do?

1Cor 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.

Here's a question for you Paul_5, were the things Paul wrote a command of the Lord for the church through all time, or were they a command of the Lord that Paul gave to the Corinthian church because of the disorder there, the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. It doesn't matter to us because we understand what Paul meant when he told women who were chatting in the pews to be silent. It is a bigger issue for you though if Paul instructions for church service are a command of the Lord to all the church for all time. I see you faith icon is Baptist, does your Baptist church follow the order of service Paul commanded here where everybody gets a chance in order to pray in tongues and prophesy bring a revelation a teaching or a hymn? Or is it three hymns decided in advance and then the minister preaches?

I am not denominational,I put down Baptist because they asked for a denomination and I was saved in a Baptist church. The church I go to does have tongues and interpretation at times. Because Paul stated that his instructions for the women to let the men lead in church(basicly what he said)was a commandment from God, then of course it was given by the Holy Spirit and has to be for all time. The ridiculous story that Paul was addressing women who were speaking to each other during the service has been completely "made up"by unscrupulous people who are using that story to attempt to silence the message that Paul gave...let the men lead.There is no biblical evidence that Paul was addressing the issue of "women talking while someone was speaking", the idea is absurd! This story supposes that Spirit filled christian women did not have the sense that a child in first grade would have,to keep your mouth shut while someone is preaching or teaching. And are we to suppose that for some reason the women did not have the sense of a child in the first grade(to keep their mouth shut while teacher speaks)yet all the men were perfect examples of considerate silence??...such a thought would assert that men really are superior to women(since the man can keep his mouth shut and the woman cannot). No,no,no...Paul was clearly teaching that God wanted the males to do the speaking,preaching, and teaching,in a church setting where both men and women were present.

 

[breadandbutter]

To take the writings of Apostle Paul OUT of their historical context is to distort the true meaning of Scripture. Paul was watching over churches he established in the first century--not US. We don't have the problems involving paganism the early church had. < staff edit >

 

[ToBeInChrist]

There are people who say any and every passage at all in the bible was for ancient people and therefore we can ignore it.

Or the context can be so over-generalized as to be meaningless or made to be so super-specific that it only applies in the most narrow legalistic way to let someone off the hook. Yes legalism can be used to wriggle OUT of obedience... go figure!

 

[Assyrian]

I am not denominational,I put down Baptist because they asked for a denomination and I was saved in a Baptist church. The church I go to does have tongues and interpretation at times.

At times? So you only obey the commandment of the Holy One some times?

Because Paul stated that his instructions for the women to let the men lead in church(basicly what he said)

No it's not basically what he said. I would have thought if you were going to proclaim your interpretation as a command of God you wouldn't just make it up.

was a commandment from God, then of course it was given by the Holy Spirit and has to be for all time.

Like circumcision? That was a command wasn't it? And not eating pork. What about building an Ark? God commanded Noah to build one, do we all have to build one too? How about running off with a donkey someone tied up? Mark 11:6 And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they let them go. 7 And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him. Here is a command given to three specific people with its own built in time limit. Mat 17:9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."

The ridiculous story that Paul was addressing women who were speaking to each other during the service has been completely "made up"by unscrupulous people who are using that story to attempt to silence the message that Paul gave...let the men lead.There is no biblical evidence that Paul was addressing the issue of "women talking while someone was speaking", the idea is absurd!

Of course it is absurd when you want to blind you eyes to what was going one. Paul tells us the reason the women were talking 1Cor 14:35 ESV If there is anything they desire to learn... NLT If they have any questions... NIV If they want to inquire about something... GNB If they want to find out about something... they should ask their husbands at home.

This story supposes that Spirit filled christian women did not have the sense that a child in first grade would have,to keep your mouth shut while someone is preaching or teaching. And are we to suppose that for some reason the women did not have the sense of a child in the first grade(to keep their mouth shut while teacher speaks)yet all the men were perfect examples of considerate silence??...such a thought would assert that men really are superior to women(since the man can keep his mouth shut and the woman cannot).

You obviously haven't taught children. You are assuming the Corinthian Christians were mature spiritual believers when the whole reason Paul wrote the letter is that they weren't. You are also assuming the women in Corinth would have had the same educational opportunities as men and the same experience of how to behave in public meetings, never mind the fact the church was a completely new forum without a hallowed tradition of listening in hushed silence. There was plenty of immature fleshly behaviour to go around in the church, just because Paul singles out one particular problem that was going on among the women hardly means 'men are superior'.

No,no,no...Paul was clearly teaching that God wanted the males to do the speaking,preaching, and teaching,in a church setting where both men and women were present.

So Paul was telling women to be quiet and never speak in church, in spite of giving instructions for women and men praying and prophesying just a couple of chapters before. If women were not to speak did Paul really mean prophetic mime? Much better to look at the context and realise his instructions were about women disrupting the meeting asking questions and chatting among themselves about what was being said, and was never meant to stop a woman being the one to minister.

 

[Paul 5]

To take the writings of Apostle Paul OUT of their historical context is to distort the true meaning of Scripture. Paul was watching over churches he established in the first century--not US. We don't have the problems involving paganism the early church had. < staff edit > .

A christian by definition is one who is following the risen Christ,the apostle Paul declared emphaticly that the doctrine that he gave to the churches was directly from Jesus Christ Himself,therefore all church doctrine taught by Paul came directly from God. < staff edit > .

 

[Assyrian]

There are people who say any and every passage at all in the bible was for ancient people and therefore we can ignore it.

Or the context can be so over-generalized as to be meaningless or made to be so super-specific that it only applies in the most narrow legalistic way to let someone off the hook. Yes legalism can be used to wriggle OUT of obedience... go figure!

The Pharisees were pretty good at letting themselves off the hook. I agree it is possible to use context and ancient people to wriggle out of anything, but that doesn't we shouldn't use it properly, or use context to realise that the way some people try to use a passage simply wasn't what was being talked about at all. Surely if Paul was restoring order in a meeting where women were disrupting the meeting chatting among themselves and he was telling those women to stop, then he wasn't saying no women was to be the speaker in a meeting. It isn't even that it doesn't apply now, I didn't even apply back then. It simply wasn't what Paul was talking about, as we can see with his instructions about women praying and prophesying.

However if we understand Paul's instruction, it applies just as well today, if meetings are being disrupted by chat it has to stop and leadership has a responsibility to step in and restore order when order falls apart. I don't think it is an instruction that we need to have a specific format for our meetings each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation, though it is good to measure our own formats against the one Paul gave. However it does tell you how leadership can deal with problems in the church by changing the whole order of service.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

If women were not to speak did Paul really mean prophetic mime? Much better to look at the context and realise his instructions were about women disrupting the meeting asking questions and chatting among themselves about what was being said

... and also women weren't to have a teaching position over men.

 

[Paul 5]

At times? So you only obey the commandment of the Holy One some times?

No it's not basically what he said. I would have thought if you were going to proclaim your interpretation as a command of God you wouldn't just make it up.

Like circumcision? That was a command wasn't it? And not eating pork. What about building an Ark? God commanded Noah to build one, do we all have to build one too? How about running off with a donkey someone tied up? Mark 11:6 And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they let them go. 7 And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him. Here is a command given to three specific people with its own built in time limit. Mat 17:9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."

Of course it is absurd when you want to blind you eyes to what was going one. Paul tells us the reason the women were talking 1Cor 14:35 ESV If there is anything they desire to learn... NLT If they have any questions... NIV If they want to inquire about something... GNB If they want to find out about something... they should ask their husbands at home.

You obviously haven't taught children. You are assuming the Corinthian Christians were mature spiritual believers when the whole reason Paul wrote the letter is that they weren't. You are also assuming the women in Corinth would have had the same educational opportunities as men and the same experience of how to behave in public meetings, never mind the fact the church was a completely new forum without a hallowed tradition of listening in hushed silence. There was plenty of immature fleshly behaviour to go around in the church, just because Paul singles out one particular problem that was going on among the women hardly means 'men are superior'.

So Paul was telling women to be quiet and never speak in church, in spite of giving instructions for women and men praying and prophesying just a couple of chapters before. If women were not to speak did Paul really mean prophetic mime? Much better to look at the context and realise his instructions were about women disrupting the meeting asking questions and chatting among themselves about what was being said, and was never meant to stop a woman being the one to minister.

Where in the Cor letter does it say that the women were chatting among themselves and that was the problem that Paul was addressing? If Paul WAS addressing a problem and not just making a statement of doctrine, then play his words backwards and you can find it. If Paul was telling the women to be silent and let the men do the speaking,immediately after telling the church to prophecy and teach, then obviously the problem was that the women were doing the teaching and prophecy that Paul was describing for the church,so Paul added to his discourse about teaching and prophecy that the women were to keep silence and let the men do it. Just curious,are you taking the contrary position because you believe in women leaders in the church < staff edit >

 

[Assyrian]

... and also women weren't to have a teaching position over men.

Position? Priscilla taught Apollos. If you want to take the two examples we have then it is perfectly fine for a woman to teach a man doctrine as Priscilla did in Acts 18:26, but not for a woman to teach authentein, which is what Paul was forbidding 1Tim 1:12. If we do not full understand what that ugly word authentein meant in that particular context, it is not reason to forbid spiritually mature women from teaching men the full understanding of the way of God as Priscilla did. There is simply no basis in 1Tim 2:12 to say it isn't teaching like Priscilla did that is the problem, it is having a teaching positions or teaching in church.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

Nothing says she had some sort of official office to teach men.

 

[Assyrian]

Nothing says she had some sort of official office to teach men.

How is that relevant? There is nothing in scripture to say women can teach in their homes but they cannot hold an official teaching office.

Lets look at how we can try to read 1Tim 2:12 to forbid women having an official teaching position in chuch.
(1) You can try to read 1Tim 2:12 as a list of three separate prohibitions
1Tim 2:12 (a) I do not permit a woman to teach ... a man,
(b) I do not permit a woman ... to usurp authority over a man,
(c) she is to remain quiet.
That doesn't work because as we have seen Priscilla taught Apollos and we know that Paul wanted women to pray and prophesy in church.

You cannot read it as I don't not permit a woman to teach a man in the context of 1Tim, or in an official teaching capacity in church, although she is allowed teach in men in the comfort of her own home. 1Tim 2:12 simply does not stretch that way. You can read it as a prohibition in the context of 1Tim, or try to read it as an absolute prohibition against teaching men anywhere, ever, which is flatly contradicted by Priscilla. What I do not see any justification for is turning it into an elastic prohibition you can stretch around the clear case of Priscilla teaching Apollos, then stretch it to women in official teaching roles in the church. Then you have to claim women are not allowed teach in church, but the command to remain quiet does not apply in church since women are supposed to be prophesying and praying there.

(2) Alternatively you need to say that Paul isn't talking about women teaching as Priscilla did, but women teaching in the context of authentein or usurping authority.

Then you can try to say: This means women cannot hold a position of authority in the church and teach. But the bible nevers refer to ministries and positions of authority in the church as authentein, nor does is ever say that a women in such a role has usurped authority.

The problem with this argument is it is starting with the assumption women cannot have authority in church and any woman who has authority has usurped it, and then reading this into 1Tim 2:12. But it is 1Tim 2:12 that is supposed to say women cannot have authority in church in the first place. Where does the idea come from if it is only read into the text in 1Tim 2:12? It simply has no biblical basis.

But the interpretation is right about one thing. We need to understand Pauls prohibition on teaching and and his command to be quiet, in the context of authentein and what was going on in 1Tim, not as three separate prohibition. If you want to read authentein as usurp authority, then Paul is saying the women who were disrupting Timothy's Basics of Christianity class and trying to take over, were being forbidden to usurp the authority of their teacher and start teaching, they were the ones Paul was telling to remain quiet v12, they were to learn quietly with all submissiveness v11. It does not mean as they grow and learn and mature in the Lord they cannot be given a role of teaching or authority, just that they cannot usurp it back in Christianity 101.

Or, again, we can try to understand teaching in the context of authentein and looking at the meaning of authentein in the ancient world, Paul is saying women are not allow teach men authentein with all its dominatrix and domineering connotations. Alternatively, you had women claiming the role of authentes, that it was their birth right as women to domineer men and teach them. These women were using their claim of being authentes as the basis of their right to teach the men in class including their teacher, and Paul saying he does not allow women either to be an authentes or teach as an authentes.

But none of Paul&#8217;s prohibitions in the context of 1Tim 2:12 say anything about women in a official teaching role in church, just that new believers disrupting the class like the women were doing in Ephesus.

 

[Exegetist]

Here are some basic points in reading in context.

1. Paul was writing to Timothy, in response to some things that Timothy had written to Paul about. Those missing complaints do cause us some problems in properly understanding the issues.
2. Paul was giving his apostolic wisdom on certain issues in Ephesus in chapters 1-3, and other issues later in the epistle.
3. In order to properly apply the wisdom principles to our lives today, we need to glean as much as we can from these chapters about what the problems were, because they were not written as Law, but as apostolic wisdom to be applied to certain circumstances.


Some other points in over all reading of the NT.
1. The New Covenant was not with Paul, but with Christ. God did not establish Laws through people, He relayed His Laws in the OT through people and these people stated plainly who gave the Laws.
2. The NC is not about justification or righteousness by Law.
3. The Laws of the Old Covenant are sufficient to show us righteousness or right actions.
4. Now we live by faith in Christ, our righteousness established through our relationship with Christ.
5. This does not negate the truths and principles established by the Laws of the OT.

 

[Samson 3]

The Pharisees were pretty good at letting themselves off the hook. I agree it is possible to use context and ancient people to wriggle out of anything, but that doesn't we shouldn't use it properly, or use context to realise that the way some people try to use a passage simply wasn't what was being talked about at all. Surely if Paul was restoring order in a meeting where women were disrupting the meeting chatting among themselves and he was telling those women to stop, then he wasn't saying no women was to be the speaker in a meeting. It isn't even that it doesn't apply now, I didn't even apply back then. It simply wasn't what Paul was talking about, as we can see with his instructions about women praying and prophesying.

However if we understand Paul's instruction, it applies just as well today, if meetings are being disrupted by chat it has to stop and leadership has a responsibility to step in and restore order when order falls apart. I don't think it is an instruction that we need to have a specific format for our meetings each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation, though it is good to measure our own formats against the one Paul gave. However it does tell you how leadership can deal with problems in the church by changing the whole order of service.

For your foundational statement you are using a "made up" situation in order to pervert the instructions of Paul into something that suits your agenda but is not at all the true instructions that Paul gave in regards to women speaking in church. Your idea that Paul was addressing a problem of women chatting in church while someone was speaking is first of all...NOT IN THE BIBLE(that should be enough),second,it assumes that Spirit indwelt adult women did not have the sense and self control of a child in the firs grade who knows to be quiet when teacher is speaking. So,neither the bible nor common sense agree with the idea that Paul was addressing chatting women,Paul was addressing the male and females positions that God had commanded for His church and males were to led.

 

[Samson 3]

Here are some basic points in reading in context.

1. Paul was writing to Timothy, in response to some things that Timothy had written to Paul about. Those missing complaints do cause us some problems in properly understanding the issues.
2. Paul was giving his apostolic wisdom on certain issues in Ephesus in chapters 1-3, and other issues later in the epistle.
3. In order to properly apply the wisdom principles to our lives today, we need to glean as much as we can from these chapters about what the problems were, because they were not written as Law, but as apostolic wisdom to be applied to certain circumstances.


Some other points in over all reading of the NT.
1. The New Covenant was not with Paul, but with Christ. God did not establish Laws through people, He relayed His Laws in the OT through people and these people stated plainly who gave the Laws.
2. The NC is not about justification or righteousness by Law.
3. The Laws of the Old Covenant are sufficient to show us righteousness or right actions.
4. Now we live by faith in Christ, our righteousness established through our relationship with Christ.
5. This does not negate the truths and principles established by the Laws of the OT.

The rules of the New Covenant were given by Christ to Paul to give to the church,you ignor anything that Christ through Paul taught the church and you are ignoring God,period and double period. Think please, no one can have a relationship with Christ without knowing what Christ wants them to do,the only way you can know what Christ wants you to do is by believing and obeying the instructions that Christ through Paul caused to be written to the church that are contained in the NT. To ignor any instruction from Paul is to break relationship with Christ in that area.

 

[Assyrian]

For your foundational statement you are using a "made up" situation in order to pervert the instructions of Paul into something that suits your agenda but is not at all the true instructions that Paul gave in regards to women speaking in church. Your idea that Paul was addressing a problem of women chatting in church while someone was speaking is first of all...NOT IN THE BIBLE(that should be enough),second,it assumes that Spirit indwelt adult women did not have the sense and self control of a child in the firs grade who knows to be quiet when teacher is speaking. So,neither the bible nor common sense agree with the idea that Paul was addressing chatting women,Paul was addressing the male and females positions that God had commanded for His church and males were to led.

I just dealt with the claim these Holy Spirit filled women would all have known how to behave. The whole letter was written because of what the church was getting up to and Paul was trying to correct the abuses. 1Cor 1:11 For it has been reported by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.
1Cor 11:18 I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,
1Cor 11:20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. 21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk.
1Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. Quarrelling, getting drunk during communion, incest? Claiming the Spirit filled Corinthians would have known how to behave is ludicrous. Paul tell us they were immature and unspiritual 1Cor 3:1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.

Your problem is you are treating Paul's letter as if it were a list of Old Testament Levitical regulations, but the New Testament isn't about substituting one set of regulation for another. Nor was Paul simply giving the church a list of rules and regulations, he as correcting problems that had occurred in the church as was leading the believers from fleshly immaturity into spiritual maturity. Treat the letter as the next 16 chapters of Leviticus and you miss out on all Paul can teach you, as well as completely misunderstanding what he was saying. Even if you want to obey the commands you see, how can you do that if you misunderstand what Paul was saying?

Paul wasn't saying women should never say a word in church. He had already given instructions on women praying and prophesying. If you want to understand the problem Paul was dealing with when he told the women to shut up, you can see it in the advice he gave alongside his instructions. Instead of discussing the message among themselves they could ask their husbands at home.

 

[Samson 3]

I just dealt with the claim these Holy Spirit filled women would all have known how to behave. The whole letter was written because of what the church was getting up to and Paul was trying to correct the abuses. 1Cor 1:11 For it has been reported by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers.
1Cor 11:18 I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,
1Cor 11:20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat. 21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk.
1Cor 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. Quarrelling, getting drunk during communion, incest? Claiming the Spirit filled Corinthians would have known how to behave is ludicrous. Paul tell us they were immature and unspiritual 1Cor 3:1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.

Your problem is you are treating Paul's letter as if it were a list of Old Testament Levitical regulations, but the New Testament isn't about substituting one set of regulation for another. Nor was Paul simply giving the church a list of rules and regulations, he as correcting problems that had occurred in the church as was leading the believers from fleshly immaturity into spiritual maturity. Treat the letter as the next 16 chapters of Leviticus and you miss out on all Paul can teach you, as well as completely misunderstanding what he was saying. Even if you want to obey the commands you see, how can you do that if you misunderstand what Paul was saying?

Paul wasn't saying women should never say a word in church. He had already given instructions on women praying and prophesying. If you want to understand the problem Paul was dealing with when he told the women to shut up, you can see it in the advice he gave alongside his instructions. Instead of discussing the message among themselves they could ask their husbands at home.

There were divisions in the Cor church,and they had made the Lord's supper into a time of feasting and drinking,and ONE MAN was living in sexual sin...that could still make the Cor more spiritual than 75% of the churches today. Paul was showing the Cor the difference between what God wanted them to do and what they were actually doing. Also, Paul gave instructions about speaking in the church,after giving those instructions, he then stated that women were to be silent in the church,the meaning is clear and in context,Paul wanted the men to do the leading and teaching in the church. There is a cross reference for that in 1Tim 11:2.

 

[Samson 3]

At times? So you only obey the commandment of the Holy One some times?

No it's not basically what he said. I would have thought if you were going to proclaim your interpretation as a command of God you wouldn't just make it up.

Like circumcision? That was a command wasn't it? And not eating pork. What about building an Ark? God commanded Noah to build one, do we all have to build one too? How about running off with a donkey someone tied up? Mark 11:6 And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they let them go. 7 And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him. Here is a command given to three specific people with its own built in time limit. Mat 17:9 And as they were coming down the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Tell no one the vision, until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."

Of course it is absurd when you want to blind you eyes to what was going one. Paul tells us the reason the women were talking 1Cor 14:35 ESV If there is anything they desire to learn... NLT If they have any questions... NIV If they want to inquire about something... GNB If they want to find out about something... they should ask their husbands at home.

You obviously haven't taught children. You are assuming the Corinthian Christians were mature spiritual believers when the whole reason Paul wrote the letter is that they weren't. You are also assuming the women in Corinth would have had the same educational opportunities as men and the same experience of how to behave in public meetings, never mind the fact the church was a completely new forum without a hallowed tradition of listening in hushed silence. There was plenty of immature fleshly behaviour to go around in the church, just because Paul singles out one particular problem that was going on among the women hardly means 'men are superior'.

So Paul was telling women to be quiet and never speak in church, in spite of giving instructions for women and men praying and prophesying just a couple of chapters before. If women were not to speak did Paul really mean prophetic mime? Much better to look at the context and realise his instructions were about women disrupting the meeting asking questions and chatting among themselves about what was being said, and was never meant to stop a woman being the one to minister.

This is simple, Paul gave instructions about the praying and prophecy that was already taking place and then instructed that in a mixed group(church)the men were to do the speaking. The women could meet among themselves and pray and prophesy all day if they wanted,however in a mixed group(that would be the church)the males were to do the speaking.

 

[Exegetist]

This is simple, Paul gave instructions about the praying and prophecy that was already taking place and then instructed that in a mixed group(church)the men were to do the speaking. The women could meet among themselves and pray and prophesy all day if they wanted,however in a mixed group(that would be the church)the males were to do the speaking.

Where exactly does the Law of the OT (Scripture reference and quote please) say that in mixed groups males are to do the speaking. Where in Scripture has God ever said that only men are approved by Him to speak.

 

[Zeena]

For your foundational statement you are using a "made up" situation in order to pervert the instructions of Paul into something that suits your agenda but is not at all the true instructions that Paul gave in regards to women speaking in church. Your idea that Paul was addressing a problem of women chatting in church while someone was speaking is first of all...NOT IN THE BIBLE(that should be enough),second,it assumes that Spirit indwelt adult women did not have the sense and self control of a child in the firs grade who knows to be quiet when teacher is speaking. So,neither the bible nor common sense agree with the idea that Paul was addressing chatting women,Paul was addressing the male and females positions that God had commanded for His church and males were to led.

< staff edit >
Isa 30:8-17
Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever: That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon: Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit. For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not. But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift. One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.
< staff edit >