Women in church

[joshua 1 9]

I really have no idea, but as I said, it’s someone else’s mail who wasn’t directed towards me, and is therefore treated regarded in the same way Paul likely regarded it... as mail, a personal letter.

There are 7 churches and 7 Spirits in the 7 Churches. Those churches are still represented today. The Book of Revelation was written to all 7 of the churches so that applies to all of us today.

 

[Strong in Him]

Of course that’s my opinion... as is anything else posted here. As for what I think of 1 Corinthians, I have dismissed it as being someone else’s personal mail.

3 things:
1. Christians believe that the Bible is the (written) word of God and accept, and trust it over personal opinion.
2. If you don't accept the writings of Paul or believe that they are part of Scripture, you shouldn't be posting in this forum, as per forum rules.
3. If that's what you believe then you should ask for this thread to be closed. You said you were puzzled why women do something when Paul said not to, and quoted the verses in question. Yet when people have tried to explain those verses in context, you dismiss the entire letter as "personal correspondence", nothing to do with you. So, with respect, why did you quote from a letter you don't believe, and why does it matter if you are puzzled since you dismiss this very lovely part of Scripture anyway?

 

[Redwingfan9]

Did you read the Greek terms in my post which are the opposite of what you contend here?

Or, are you unwilling to change your stance even if you can see it is not according to Scripture?

I would submit your interpretation of greek is inadequate.

 

[Endeavourer]

In verse 5, as well as 4, he uses a term that clearly references a cloth covering or veil.

This is not true. He uses a term that means either covering or veil. Not specifically only a veil.

The term used in verse 15 is clearly speaking of hair.

This is not true. The term for covering in v. 15 is peribolaiou, which specifically is only cloth and cannot be a hair covering. Also, the references to hair in v. 15 are specifically to long hair; one of the refinements Strong's offers is "ornamental hair".

Per my previous post:

In verse 15 Paul defines his usage of the word 'cover' to specifically mean 'long hair'.

1 Cor 11:15 But if a woman have long hair (2863 koma) , it is a glory to her: for her hair (2864 kome) is given her for a covering (4018 peribolaiou), or that which is thrown round for a covering, corpse-clothes, woman's head-gear. Some render this as "an article of apparel that covers much of the body, covering, wrap, cloak, robe).​

2863 koma: wear the hair long, allow the hair to grow out.
2864 kome: hair, long hair
4018 peribolaiou: or that which is thrown round for a covering, corpse-clothes, woman's head-gear. Some render this as "an article of apparel that covers much of the body, covering, wrap, cloak, robe
​

​

I would submit your interpretation of greek is inadequate.

I used Strong's well known, widely acclaimed interpretations. I also studied how Greek scholars understood Strong's interpretations. Their understandings did not add anything to Strong's definitions; their conclusion was no different than the obvious from Strongs.

I provided Strong's reference numbers for your easy confirmation. Where did Strong get it wrong? Where is Strong's interpretation faulty?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

people ignore clear commands in scripture in light of cultural prerogative and pragmatism.

it is what it is.

 

[HardHead]

and is therefore treated regarded in the same way Paul likely regarded it... as mail, a personal letter.

As for what I think of 1 Corinthians, I have dismissed it as being someone else’s personal mail.

Its an interesting point; however, the salutations are to a group of people, indicating that the letter is therefore probably not simply personal mail.

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes, 2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1Co 1:1-3, NRSV)

12 Now concerning our brother Apollos, I strongly urged him to visit you with the other brothers, but he was not at all willing to come now. He will come when he has the opportunity. 13 Keep alert, stand firm in your faith, be courageous, be strong. 14 Let all that you do be done in love. 15 Now, brothers and sisters, you know that members of the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints; 16 I urge you to put yourselves at the service of such people, and of everyone who works and toils with them. 17 I rejoice at the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus, because they have made up for your absence; 18 for they refreshed my spirit as well as yours. So give recognition to such persons. (1Co 16:12-18, NRSV)

Beyond that, scripture often has hard sayings that take discernment to interpret. However you do this or whatever conclusion you draw for yourself, you should likely not dismiss the book based only on your current reaction to it.

You may consider that context is important in all cases when reading scripture. For example, Paul was likely talking about women interpreting prophesy in his comments about silence in church (See Post #190). Even if Paul was not doing this, further context may be that he was writing to an audience that was from a certain time and from a certain culture that is different than how we live today.

Paul's take on social matters is written in that cultural context to be sure. What that means to you personally today is another matter. At the same time, this cultural divide also does not make Paul wrong by default simply because, you, a modern person, is reading his writings in your own clearly different cultural context. Its not easy to put these texts into a personal framework and to apply them to today's daily life but this is what is needed.

Some of this may provide insight in your interpretation but, in my opinion, it does not really give credence to dismissing the book out of hand as personal mail.

 

[Emmylouwho]

Its an interesting point; however, the salutations are to a group of people, indicating that the letter is therefore probably not simply personal mail.

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes, 2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: 3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (1Co 1:1-3, NRSV)

12 Now concerning our brother Apollos, I strongly urged him to visit you with the other brothers, but he was not at all willing to come now. He will come when he has the opportunity. 13 Keep alert, stand firm in your faith, be courageous, be strong. 14 Let all that you do be done in love. 15 Now, brothers and sisters, you know that members of the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints; 16 I urge you to put yourselves at the service of such people, and of everyone who works and toils with them. 17 I rejoice at the coming of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus, because they have made up for your absence; 18 for they refreshed my spirit as well as yours. So give recognition to such persons. (1Co 16:12-18, NRSV)

Beyond that, scripture often has hard sayings that take discernment to interpret. However you do this or whatever conclusion you draw for yourself, you should likely not dismiss the book based only on your current reaction to it.

You may consider that context is important in all cases when reading scripture. For example, Paul was likely talking about women interpreting prophesy in his comments about silence in church (See Post #190). Even if Paul was not doing this, further context may be that he was writing to an audience that was from a certain time and from a certain culture that is different than how we live today.

Paul's take on social matters is written in that cultural context to be sure. What that means to you personally today is another matter. At the same time, this cultural divide also does not make Paul wrong by default simply because, you, a modern person, is reading his writings in your own clearly different cultural context. Its not easy to put these texts into a personal framework and to apply them to today's daily life but this is what is needed.

Some of this may provide insight in your interpretation but, in my opinion, it does not really give credence to dismissing the book out of hand as personal mail.

I don’t consider 2000 year old personal correspondence as a personal guide to my life.

 

[Strong in Him]

I don’t consider 2000 year old personal correspondence as a personal guide to my life.

Your choice, but you shouldn't be discussing it on this forum then.
You said you were puzzled about why women do something in the light of what Paul said - but you don't actually seem to care what Paul said nor believe it to be relevant. So why ask?

 

[HardHead]

I don’t consider 2000 year old personal correspondence as a personal guide to my life.

That interpretation and what you do with it after reading the letters is absolutely and completely up to you, as it should be. This is always a personal thing.

Why do you read it the way you do? Is there something in the text that makes you think as you do regarding it being only a personal correspondence that is of little value to you?

All the best to you.

 

[Emmylouwho]

Your choice, but you shouldn't be discussing it on this forum then.
You said you were puzzled about why women do something in the light of what Paul said - but you don't actually seem to care what Paul said nor believe it to be relevant. So why ask?

I evolved to my current opinion during the course of this thread.

 

[Emmylouwho]

That interpretation and what you do with it after reading the letters is absolutely and completely up to you, as it should be. This is always a personal thing.

Why do you read it the way you do? Is there something in the text that makes you think as you do regarding it being only a personal correspondence that is of little value to you?

All the best to you.

I read the words.

 

[HardHead]

I read the words.

Do you think similar wording (or that his attitude) is systemic in his writing in general?

 

[Emmylouwho]

Do you think similar wording (or that his attitude) is systemic in his writing in general?

I don’t understand your question. I just don’t think Paul’s words are for my ears. Or for anyone other than the recipient of his letters. Paul and his letter recipients are long gone.

 

[HardHead]

This article seems to be on topic for the thread.


Christian Women & Men Are Equals in Jesus PART TWO - God does NOT forbid women from teaching MEN either

WOMEN AND MEN ARE EQUALS IN JESUS CHRIST PART TWO: WOMEN, DON’T KEEP SILENT
GOD DOES NOT FORBID WOMEN FROM TEACHING MEN EITHER!
By Craig Bluemel

Manmade doctrinal traditions easily deceive people if they do not search the scriptures daily, seeking the truth with an unbiased mind and heart, and with the intent to obey what God says, regardless of what price it may cost you. In part, spiritual blindness rests upon those in church leadership that push the issue of subjugating women in subservience to men on the basis of their gender identity.
...
Below are several scripture passages that clearly illustrate the important and integral role that Christian women had in the early churches. The only reason these passages are not heeded and considered by those in control is due to motive, not mere ignorance.
...
You don’t have to be a Greek scholar to see the connection to the passage about women ministering to men and women alike if you read your Bible regularly.

 

[Emmylouwho]

This article seems to be on topic for the thread.


Christian Women & Men Are Equals in Jesus PART TWO - God does NOT forbid women from teaching MEN either

WOMEN AND MEN ARE EQUALS IN JESUS CHRIST PART TWO: WOMEN, DON’T KEEP SILENT
GOD DOES NOT FORBID WOMEN FROM TEACHING MEN EITHER!
By Craig Bluemel

Manmade doctrinal traditions easily deceive people if they do not search the scriptures daily, seeking the truth with an unbiased mind and heart, and with the intent to obey what God says, regardless of what price it may cost you. In part, spiritual blindness rests upon those in church leadership that push the issue of subjugating women in subservience to men on the basis of their gender identity.
...
Below are several scripture passages that clearly illustrate the important and integral role that Christian women had in the early churches. The only reason these passages are not heeded and considered by those in control is due to motive, not mere ignorance.
...
You don’t have to be a Greek scholar to see the connection to the passage about women ministering to men and women alike if you read your Bible regularly.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I live in America. In America, it’s a crime to open someone else’s mail.

 

[HardHead]

I don’t understand your question. I just don’t think Paul’s words are for my ears. Or for anyone other than the recipient of his letters. Paul and his letter recipients are long gone.

That is exactly the trick in this. Figure out what the universal part is in his writings and to find something that does apply to you and to everyone else as well. This is not simple.

I don't have an answer or how you can do that, but realize that not every christian denomination is ready to push a male-dominated patriarchy. Thinking that this exists everywhere in every church is not correct at all. You just have to look to find what you are looking for.

For example, you may want consider the Anglican teachings on these matters. In that church, women are priests and bishops, and are part of the main-line of church activity. So are LGBTQ people as well.

You can find female Anglican priests that post on this site that may be able to provide better insight on this for you than perhaps what you are finding on this thread.

My point is that is room for dissenting opinion, to be sure. Don't give up on God just because of one barrier you may have found.

 

[HardHead]

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I live in America. In America, it’s a crime to open someone else’s mail.

OK. I can assure you that Canada, where I live, is similar in this respect. America does not have a monopoly on freedom and rule of law.

 

[Emmylouwho]

That is exactly the trick in this. Figure out what the universal part is in his writings and to find something that does apply to you and to everyone else as well. This is not simple.

I don't have an answer or how you can do that, but realize that not every christian denomination is ready to push a male-dominated patriarchy. Thinking that this exists everywhere in every church is not correct at all. You just have to look to find what you are looking for.

For example, you may want consider the Anglican teachings on these matters. In that church, women are priests and bishops, and are part of the main-line of church activity. So are LGBTQ people as well.

You can find female Anglican priests that post on this site that may be able to provide better insight on this for you than perhaps what you are finding on this thread.

My point is that is room for dissenting opinion, to be sure. Don't give up on God just because of one barrier you may have found.

I have another post on this forum soliciting spiritual truths that can be found in the Bible. So far there is only one that nobody disagrees with, and that is: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. What more can you add to that?

 

[HardHead]

I have another post on this forum soliciting spiritual truths that can be found in the Bible. So far there is only one that nobody disagrees with, and that is: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. What more can you add to that?

At least one thing ...

36 "Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?" 37 He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
(Matthew 22:36-40, NRSV)

 

[Strong in Him]

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I live in America. In America, it’s a crime to open someone else’s mail.

The Bible is a public document, available for everyone in every bookshop.
You are not opening someone else's mail - it became available to everyone as soon as it was published. Even before then, Paul intended his letters to be passed around the churches, e.g Colossians 4:16.

It's sad that anyone would think that the definition of love in 1 Corinthians 13 has nothing to say to them.