Women are to remain silent in church? +No female pastors?

[CounselorForChrist]

So I was reading and I came upon this:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Let the women keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but let them subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

So am I reading that wrong or what? Women are to remain silent in church? I mean when I think about it I never really have heard women speak in church unless they are doing praise songs. Is this true? If so then what about women pastors, does this mean they are not truly pastors if they are speaking in church? What about praising God then too during singing?

 

[Boidae]

So I was reading and I came upon this:


So am I reading that wrong or what? Women are to remain silent in church? I mean when I think about it I never really have heard women speak in church unless they are doing praise songs. Is this true? If so then what about women pastors, does this mean they are not truly pastors if they are speaking in church? What about praising God then too during singing?

I must be getting old because I actually don't feel like posting something that I know will be debated and then I get drug into the debate and it's just something I don't want to do anymore...lol.

We'll just say that I don't hold to the traditional view on this subject and I will leave it at that.

 

[Publius]

So I was reading and I came upon this:


So am I reading that wrong or what? Women are to remain silent in church? I mean when I think about it I never really have heard women speak in church unless they are doing praise songs. Is this true? If so then what about women pastors, does this mean they are not truly pastors if they are speaking in church? What about praising God then too during singing?

It's referring to positions of leadership, not to the inability to speak.

The Bible is abundantly clear that women are not to be pastors and if you look at a church with a woman pastor, you don't have to scratch very far below the surface to find other serious doctrinal issues.

 

[ezeric]

Pastors is only mentioned 1 (once) in the New Testament, and it means one who is shepherd - not a paid position that stands above the brothers and sisters.

So you have apostles, evangelists, teachers and shepherds just saints (you and me) with different gifting. JESUS said you are ALL brothers not lording ourselves over others - all equal as kids in family would be around their parents who love them! Ephesians 4:11

Saying all that Philip in the book of Acts had daughters who were prophets.
They had just as much right to speak what GOD is speaking through them then anyone else.

Now Philip had four unmarried daughters who were prophetesses. Acts 21:9

The Church was simply people in love with JESUS (and each other) meeting in homes or outside Solomon's colonnade or by the beach - the place isn't important as its the SPIRIT that is everything and that SPIRIT (JESUS SPIRIT) is in all the brothers and sisters in CHRIST.

JESUS taking the head (HE only has this place of honour) over HIS Church (those of us called OUT, not called IN) who are HIS body.

And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, Ephesians 1:22

You won't learn like you can learn in a home church being led in love by the SPIRIT.
What you have is lots of spontaneous sharing amongst each other, but what you can't have is so much of that you have chaos or disorder. If that is the case, then you shouldn't speak, everyone has a chance to speak, each in their own turn, happily sharing what JESUS has done for them the past weak.

Its a wonderful scene and you will know it when you see them love one another.
And everyone male and female sharing together.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

-eric

The Exchanged Life

 

[homeofmew]

You know - i disagree 2000 years ago had different culture than today.
Just saying.

 

[Ant1986]

I never will understand why people use Galatians 3:28 to support the idea that women can hold the position of pastor and/or elder. It has nothing to do with church structure.

I agree that the bible is very clear on this.

 

[Johnnz]

In much of 1 Cor Paul was dealing with unacceptable behaviour within the new community. Women obviously played a major role in the NT church and were not silent. Paul would have been addressing behaviour of some women that was disruptive, possibly related to their lack of education at that time and unfamiliarity with the Scriptures. Elsewhere in the same book women Paul indicates very clearly women were not silent.

As for not being a pastor. The whole concept is badly flawed. There is no job description in the NT for today's pastor. Leadership was collective by elders. When Paul was addressing problems and issues within the church he did not write to the leaders. He wrote letters that were read to the entire gathered community, for the community as a whole to take responsibility for setting things right.

John
NZ

 

[Johnnz]

I never will understand why people use Galatians 3:28 to support the idea that women can hold the position of pastor and/or elder. It has nothing to do with church structure.

I agree that the bible is very clear on this.

That verse is all about the new community which consists of people meeting together as equals without any of the great social divisors - race, class and gender. Within that community it is family life not structures that are to predominate. Church structures began to appear within a century of the NT times, soon leading to a professional/laity division, in contrast to the gifted communal basis on the NT church where any leadership was always plural by a group of elders, never an individual.

John
NZ

 

[ChrisHolland619]

It is referring to leadership roles and pastoral roles, not the inability to actually speak verbally at all.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

So if its just about leader roles how I do talk to my fiance about her mother? Or do I just remain silent since I probably will never meet her mother (lives in another country).

Also does leader ship roles mean ministry leaders too? Because most every chuch has women leading up some ministry.

 

[Christian Warrior]

So if its just about leader roles how I do talk to my fiance about her mother? Or do I just remain silent since I probably will never meet her mother (lives in another country).

Also does leader ship roles mean ministry leaders too? Because most every chuch has women leading up some ministry.

For the love of God man, do not tell her LOL...

 

[Johnnz]

It is referring to leadership roles and pastoral roles, not the inability to actually speak verbally at all.

That's an assumption read onto the text. But that statement cannot be exegeted from that text itself. This is another example where people want a 'what the bible says literally' ie a statement about women's' subordination or restriction on one hand ,and then add something else that is not actually there in the quoted text to avoid a problem with another verse elsewhere that does not support their stance.

John
NZ

 

[CounselorForChrist]

That's an assumption read onto the text.

Well thats what I was thinking. If you go exactly by what it says it sounds like women aren't to speak period at church. Thats why I was asking.

For the love of God man, do not tell her LOL...

I wouldn't, something that big would probably make her leave I imagine. >.<

 

[x141]

You are the church that the woman should keep silent in, suffer not a woman to teach or usurp authority over the man. The mind is femine (where thoughts are birthed) the spirit is masculine. There is neither male nor female, bond nor free, jew nor greek.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Hmm well I just talked to two pastors (both people who haven't led me wrong). The one is about 70 now and hes studied the original texts and went to school for this stuff.

As soon as I mentioned the verse he said "Ah that one." He (and the other pastor) said that women aren't suppose to be silent in church. He says in the bible this verse was written from a letter to (forgot name). He says back then Jewish custom was to have women sit on one side of the church and say nothing.

He says this was during the transition from Old Law to New Law which now allows women to speak, lead ministires...etc. They said a woman however cannot be a pastor, although in my fiances mothers case maybe she the only woman because there are no men that want to be, not that it makes it right.

So anyone agree with this? After hearing that it makes sense to me that they were in the transition from old to new.

 

[Johnnz]

We really can't adequately consider the issue when we see a pyramid structure as normative. In fact it is unbiblical, an artefact of church history. But if we see an eldership as normative, and not somehow 'under' one pastor, there is a place for women in leadership. That was clearly the case in the NT. Junias was named amongst the apostles, Phoebe was a deacon (the same Greek word applied to male deacons elsewhere in the NT) and the Paul wrote to two significant women who were most likely prominent leaders in the church at Phillipi who had fallen out with each other.
Phil 4:2-3 I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord. Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. NIV

John
NZ

 

[Publius]

As soon as I mentioned the verse he said "Ah that one." He (and the other pastor) said that women aren't suppose to be silent in church. He says in the bible this verse was written from a letter to (forgot name). He says back then Jewish custom was to have women sit on one side of the church and say nothing.

The problem with this is that your friend has forgotten that there is such a thing as the analogy of scripture and that the other verses do not support this view.

He says this was during the transition from Old Law to New Law which now allows women to speak, lead ministires...etc.

Did you ask him what in the world he was talking about? What "New Law" is he talking about?

They said a woman however cannot be a pastor, although in my fiances mothers case maybe she the only woman because there are no men that want to be, not that it makes it right.

That doesn't make it right.

So anyone agree with this? After hearing that it makes sense to me that they were in the transition from old to new.

Where does the Bible say anything about some kind of "old law" and "new law" that allows women to have positions of leadership in the Church?

Possibly he was referring to the Old and New Covenants.

The Old and New Covenants have nothing to do with this.

In Christ we are all equal.

Nobody is arguing that women are not equal, only that God has assigned men and women different gender roles.

I think two thousand years ago, the role for women was very submissive (which has its' own form of power)... but nowadays it is different.

The social role may have changed, but the Biblical role hasn't. The Bible is still very clear that submission is a part of being a Christian: Christ to the Father, wives to husbands, children to parents, us to those in authority over us...

 

[Johnnz]

Where does the Bible say anything about some kind of "old law" and "new law" that allows women to have positions of leadership in the Church?

Possibly he was referring to the Old and New Covenants.

The New Covenant fulfils God's commitment to His creation. In and through Jesus the restoration of creation has begun. That includes a people belonging to the one family (God's) without any of the distinctions and oppressions we find in our fallen world. That is what Galatians 3:28 is all about.

John
NZ

 

[fm107]

So I was reading and I came upon this:


So am I reading that wrong or what? Women are to remain silent in church? I mean when I think about it I never really have heard women speak in church unless they are doing praise songs. Is this true? If so then what about women pastors, does this mean they are not truly pastors if they are speaking in church? What about praising God then too during singing?

Hi xfreakazoidx,

You have been given very, very poor help in regards to your question. And I shocked and saddened by your responses thus far.

Let's look at the verses in question:

1 Corinthians 14:33
As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches.


This verse clearly shows that it women are meant to be silent in the church. But take note that it isn't singular,"churches" and "congregations" are both plural! This isn't an instruction to one congregation or one "church" alone but to all congregations everywhere!

Let's look at the very first chapter. 1 Corinthians is a letter remember? Who was this letter addressed to? Here we are given the answer:

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ&#8212;their Lord and ours:

So it was written to:

1. The "Church" in Corinth
2. All those everywhere who call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ - that's you and me!!!!

Let's look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35
They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


You can clearly see here that this is about women speaking period!! Even if they want to ask a question, they MUST not! It must be asked at home!!

Another scripture backs up this one:

1 Timothy 2:11
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

And this one!

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

Women are not permitted to take leadership roles nor are they to speak but must remain in silence in the congregation.

There is ALWAYS reasons why God does things. You might be wondering why God says women must remain silent etc. I can go into those reasons in another post should you want me to but for now I am going off to bed.

By the way, a lot of churches have seeked to justify having women leaders. It is an utter failing on their part and those churches contradict the teachings God has given us through his servent Paul.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed

 

[SamsoniteBaggage]

So I was reading and I came upon this:


So am I reading that wrong or what? Women are to remain silent in church? I mean when I think about it I never really have heard women speak in church unless they are doing praise songs. Is this true? If so then what about women pastors, does this mean they are not truly pastors if they are speaking in church? What about praising God then too during singing?

In Christ we are all equal. I think two thousand years ago, the role for women was very submissive (which has its' own form of power)... but nowadays it is different.


I think this all is really about the core negative psychology of women... which often offers choices which are bad choices to lead people to the right choice.

Consider, however, women run the house in the traditional mindset and raise the kids, and Christians are usually spiritual kids.