Wives vs submission to husbands vs submission to Jesus

[Big Drew]

Yes. The key word is "good" husband.Reminds me of the story of Nabal,Abigail and David. Nabal certainly wasn't a good husband.But I agree with you. Someone has to have the final say in the household.

Yeah, so my first wife was very much a do your own thing kind of person...she'd make decisions without telling me in regards to herself and the kids that I'd find out after the fact and I'd just be left feeling discouraged, angry, disappointed, whatever...much of the time these were trivial matters...but still, would have been nice to be in the circle, ya know? I'll never forget the huge fight we had the day I checked our bank account and saw she had just spent $500 on Mary Kay to become a sales rep....we didn't have a lot of money so this was a really big deal, something we should have discussed...but she had lost respect for me, and so she thought it didn't matter what I had to say.

With my wife now, there isn't anything like this...we discuss everything...she'll go so far as to tell me she's ordering a new book on her Kindle, or whatever, and I let her know anything I do...when I went to lunch with an old friend the other day, I told her the night before that I was planning on it...I didn't have to, she doesn't have to tell me these little things either...but it's about the love and respect we have for one another...something that was seriously lacking the first time around.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

I met a woman who married an older man who was a painter. He was frequently out of work. He physically threatened her, punching a hole with his fist in the drywall near her head. She was working two jobs to support them. One thanksgiving her girl friend whom she had known since high school had to take up a collection for them to be able to afford a decent meal. Another time her husband took their money and flew to visit his father. She refused to submit to him any more. She changed the lock on their house and filed for divorce. She got friendly with an engineer she met while taking her children to a roller skating rink where he was spending time with his children. She submitted to him and they married nine months after they met.

That's exactly what I was wondering.What woman in her right mind would submit to such abuse? And be joyful about it?

 

[Big Drew]

That's exactly what I was wondering.What woman in her right mind would submit to such abuse? And be joyful about it?

None. That's not a marriage such as Christ has with the Church...that's a control freak that wants a slave.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

OP, it seems to me there are two different sets of questions running through your thread.

One is, how do I know when and how it is appropriate to submit? (Hence the differences of opinion on how marriage should work; and on that, I'm with the folks who don't see marriage as a hierarchy but as a unity).

And the other is, when I do know, why do I (we) sometimes not do it? (I mean, yes, it's sin, but what's driving that sin?) And I think there the answer is that often we're afraid. In the Adam and Eve story, it seems to me that Eve taking the apple is driven by her fear of not being "wise," for example.



Yes, often true. However, sneakiness is often a sin of the powerless; what someone resorts to when straightforward means are not available. If a wife is being "sneaky," is it because her husband didn't take her needs into account in the first place?

Thanks for your input and yes you have understood that I'm asking two basic questions in my thread. Thanks.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

Yeah, so my first wife was very much a do your own thing kind of person...she'd make decisions without telling me in regards to herself and the kids that I'd find out after the fact and I'd just be left feeling discouraged, angry, disappointed, whatever...much of the time these were trivial matters...but still, would have been nice to be in the circle, ya know? I'll never forget the huge fight we had the day I checked our bank account and saw she had just spent $500 on Mary Kay to become a sales rep....we didn't have a lot of money so this was a really big deal, something we should have discussed...but she had lost respect for me, and so she thought it didn't matter what I had to say.

With my wife now, there isn't anything like this...we discuss everything...she'll go so far as to tell me she's ordering a new book on her Kindle, or whatever, and I let her know anything I do...when I went to lunch with an old friend the other day, I told her the night before that I was planning on it...I didn't have to, she doesn't have to tell me these little things either...but it's about the love and respect we have for one another...something that was seriously lacking the first time around.

That's what I meant when I said that women can be sneaky. Men can be sneaky too. Slyness isn't only on women.But they may feel they have to sneak and do something behind their husband's back because he might say no if they ask or try to discuss it with him.Some men won't allow their wives to buy a new dress and some are so controlling that they won't even allow her to have friends. It's just a shame.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

The example of Jesus's love for the church was so powerful and awe inspiring that it could intimidate. We have to admit that we can't always live up to His great example.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

None. That's not a marriage such as Christ has with the Church...that's a control freak that wants a slave.

The wife says Amen to that.

 

[Big Drew]

That's what I meant when I said that women can be sneaky. Men can be sneaky too. Slyness isn't only on women.But they may feel they have to sneak and do something behind their husband's back because he might say no if they ask or try to discuss it with him.Some men won't allow their wives to buy a new dress and some are so controlling that they won't even allow her to have friends. It's just a shame.

Oh yeah, also looking at my ex...man, there were so many problems...so...she would give me all kinds of grief if I wanted to go hang out with one of my friends, or would insist on coming with me...yet she would go off with a friend and I was supposed to be okay with it. Kid you not, the guy I've been best friends with since we were 13...I went about 5 years without getting together with him because, "The weekends are meant to spend time with family."

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

Oh yeah, also looking at my ex...man, there were so many problems...so...she would give me all kinds of grief if I wanted to go hang out with one of my friends, or would insist on coming with me...yet she would go off with a friend and I was supposed to be okay with it. Kid you not, the guy I've been best friends with since we were 13...I went about 5 years without getting together with him because, "The weekends are meant to spend time with family."

Oh yeah...women can be controlling too.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

1Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know ,that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Christ fully submitted to His head even unto death.My older sister made this observation to me not long ago:Some men complain that their wives won't submit when they themselves haven't submitted to Christ: Her point was that if the husband is in rebellion against his head then the wife is only following his example when she rebels against her head. Now it was just her observation and it goes much deeper than what I've mentioned.Any thoughts?

 

[Solomons Porch]

I've made this testimony before.

About thirty years ago, my marriage was against the rocks. My wife and I were not fussing and cussing, but we had drifted apart, the love was not there, and we both knew it.

One evening, I was up in our bedroom praying ernestly, "Lord, tell me what to do to save my marriage."

The Holy Spirit came to me clearly with Ephesians 5:25: "Love your wife as I love the church and gave Myself up for her."

I knew what He meant--He meant doing all that mushy stuff my wife had pleaded for, things I'd resisted doing.

So I argued with the Lord: "I work hard, I bring the money home, I pay the bills, I'm not running around, I do what I'm supposed to do!"

The Lord responded, "You have not given yourself up for your wife."

I still resisted: "What if I do that and she doesn't respond?"

The Lord said: "What she does is my business. Will you obey me? Yes or no?"

So I gave in. I got off my knees and headed downstairs. I intended to tell my wife that I was going to love her as she wanted to be loved, and I'd do it whether she responded or not.

My wife met me on the stairs. She told me that she had been in the kitchen praying to the Lord for a way to save her marriage. She said the Lord had told her, "Submit to your husband."

She had argued, then had said, "What if I submit to him, but he still doesn't love me?"

She said the Holy Spirit had responded, "What he does is my business. Will you obey me?"

So she was coming upstairs to tell me that she would submit to me, even if I didn't love her in return.

We sat on the stairs and cried together, and praised the Lord, for a good long while.

That was thirty years ago. We just came back an hour ago from a trip to Ikea picking up some items for the house.

There are a whole lot of Christian husbands paying 'way too close attention to Ephesians 5:22--which actually has nothing to do with them. Ephesians 5:22 is totally a matter between wives and the Lord. It's a command from the Lord to Christian wives, and Christian wives are accountable to the Lord for obedience to His commands. It's not our command, it's the Lord's command; husbands have nothing to do with it.

Christian husbands don't pay much attention to Ephesians 5:25. In particular, it's rare that a husband actually gives his self up for his wife. His own identity, his own being, his own independence, his own proclivities, his own wants and desires, his self. Most husbands marry and continue to cling to self. They judge their wive's disobedience and fail to look at their own.

Thats what its all about, thank you for sharing that.

 

[Big Drew]

1Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know ,that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Christ fully submitted to His head even unto death.My older sister made this observation to me not long ago:Some men complain that their wives won't submit when they themselves haven't submitted to Christ: Her point was that if the husband is in rebellion against his head then the wife is only following his example when she rebels against her head. Now it was just her observation and it goes much deeper than what I've mentioned.Any thoughts?

I can't disagree with that. As I said earlier, I think that's where my first marriage fell apart. We turned away from God, and it was all downhill after that.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

Thanks for sharing those beautiful words of wisdom RDKirk.You've made a great point by sharing that you and your wife turned to prayer for an answer and then put everything in the capable hands of the Lord.I pray that more can be like the both of you.Very rarely will married folk turn to the Lord.They like divorce court and marriage counselors too much, not that I'm against Christian marriage counseling. Thanks again for sharing.

 

[Victor E.]

Why is it so hard for people to submit to their "heads"?
Ephesians 5:22-33. Lays it out plainly.Wives submit to their husbands just as the Church must submit to Jesus. Scripture says that when a man finds a wife he has found something good.Ephesians 5: 25 tells husbands to love their wives as their own bodies. These are scriptures to give serious consideration of before and after marriage.Jesus is head of man.So why is it so hard for a man to submit to his head? What's the problem?

By the sinful nature of Adam, men and women typically operate differently. By the holy nature of the Spirit, they operate on the same wavelength (Christ's ways of love). It is entirely possible for both men and women to become genderless (Spirit-filled) and of one mind and accord. Christ's mind. These are the healthiest and most successful relationships.

"Jesus replied, “You are mistaken because you do not know the Scriptures or the POWER of God. In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven." Matthew 22:29-30 (in regards to the division caused by sensual/carnal/e needs of the flesh)

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds" Titus 2:11-14.

This is why it's paramount to be EQUALLY yoked in relationship with someone of similar spiritual maturity. We are sanctified unto HOLINESS through GRACE and TRUTH. I'm single, but I know that men and women *typically* operate in different ways (Emotional vs Logical) in regard to decision making. Love binds all things into unity. You could write books about this topic. I will spare you that.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Eph 5:22 ¶
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Here is the Greek word for submit. I put this here to prove there is no wiggle room for interpretation. For those who refuse to obey God's word they fly in the face of scripture.......


hypotassō

Pronunciation
hü-po-tä's-sō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From ὑπό (G5259) and τάσσω (G5021)
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 8:39,1156

KJV Translation Count — Total: 40x
The KJV translates Strong's G5293 in the following manner: put under (6x), be subject unto (6x), be subject to (5x), submit (one's) self unto (5x), submit (one's) self to (3x), be in subjection unto (2x), put in subjection under (1x), miscellaneous (12x).

Just in case it was not absolutely clear the next verse solidifies it once and for all.

Eph 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

 

[Solomons Porch]

By the sinful nature of Adam, men and women typically operate differently. By the holy nature of the Spirit, they operate on the same wavelength (Christ's ways of love). It is entirely possible for both men and women to become genderless (Spirit-filled) and of one mind and accord. Christ's mind. These are the healthiest and most successful relationships.

"Jesus replied, “You are mistaken because you do not know the Scriptures or the POWER of God. In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven." Matthew 22:29-30 (in regards to the division caused by sensual/carnal/e needs of the flesh)

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds" Titus 2:11-14.

This is why it's paramount to be EQUALLY yoked in relationship with someone of similar spiritual maturity. We are sanctified unto HOLINESS through GRACE and TRUTH. I'm single, but I know that men and women *typically* operate in different ways (Emotional vs Logical) in regard to decision making. Love binds all things into unity. You could write books about this topic. I will spare you that.

Beautifully written

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Why is it so hard for people to submit to their "heads"?
Ephesians 5:22-33. Lays it out plainly.Wives submit to their husbands just as the Church must submit to Jesus. Scripture says that when a man finds a wife he has found something good.Ephesians 5: 25 tells husbands to love their wives as their own bodies. These are scriptures to give serious consideration of before and after marriage.Jesus is head of man.So why is it so hard for a man to submit to his head? What's the problem?

No Jesus in heart = no submission to Him.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

By the sinful nature of Adam, men and women typically operate differently. By the holy nature of the Spirit, they operate on the same wavelength (Christ's ways of love). It is entirely possible for both men and women to become genderless (Spirit-filled) and of one mind and accord. Christ's mind. These are the healthiest and most successful relationships.

"Jesus replied, “You are mistaken because you do not know the Scriptures or the POWER of God. In the resurrection, people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Instead, they will be like the angels in heaven." Matthew 22:29-30 (in regards to the division caused by sensual/carnal/e needs of the flesh)

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men. It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age, as we await the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. He gave Himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds" Titus 2:11-14.

This is why it's paramount to be EQUALLY yoked in relationship with someone of similar spiritual maturity. We are sanctified unto HOLINESS through GRACE and TRUTH. I'm single, but I know that men and women *typically* operate in different ways (Emotional vs Logical) in regard to decision making. Love binds all things into unity. You could write books about this topic. I will spare you that.

The true Jesus in heart of both is sufficient for unity. Different levels of maturity doesn't matter that much. Jesus will lead into victory. Presence in one heart and absence in the other of the true Jesus is the only possible issue, and a serious one.

 

[Victor E.]

The true Jesus in heart of both is sufficient for unity. Different levels of maturity doesn't matter that much. Jesus will lead into victory. Presence in one heart and absence in the other of the true Jesus is the only possible issue, and a serious one.

Could you explain how those two are distinctly different? I'm wondering if your perspective of spiritual maturity is the same as mine.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

Eph 5:22 ¶
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Here is the Greek word for submit. I put this here to prove there is no wiggle room for interpretation. For those who refuse to obey God's word they fly in the face of scripture.......


hypotassō

Pronunciation
hü-po-tä's-sō (Key)

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From ὑπό (G5259) and τάσσω (G5021)
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry

TDNT Reference: 8:39,1156

KJV Translation Count — Total: 40x
The KJV translates Strong's G5293 in the following manner: put under (6x), be subject unto (6x), be subject to (5x), submit (one's) self unto (5x), submit (one's) self to (3x), be in subjection unto (2x), put in subjection under (1x), miscellaneous (12x).

Just in case it was not absolutely clear the next verse solidifies it once and for all.

Eph 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

There is no wiggle room and no excuses when it comes down to obeying .Dont forget the scripture laying it out about Jesus being the head of man.We're trying to focus on submission to our heads. It'd be a shame if the focus is only placed on wives submitting to husbands.We all have an obligation to submit.You know.