Witchcraft 101

[JackRT]

I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naive creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgements. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death.


Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a real world where there was real good and evil.

What we are is a people that is still evolving and that evolution has profoundly affected not just our bodies but our psyches as well. The world in which we evolved was a difficult and dagerous one and mere survival was of the highest priority. Selfishness became a part of who we are as a survival mechanism. This selfish instinct is no longer as necessary as in our savage past but it is still powerful. If there is an "Original Sin", this is it. Of course it is not a sin really but an innate part of our nature and it can be overcome.

In the words of Bishop John Spong: "Every living thing, plant and animal is programmed to survive. What is true of all these living things is also true of human life. The only difference is that we human beings are self-conscious, while plants and animals are not. If survival is our highest goal, self-centeredness is inevitable and thus this quality becomes a constant part of the human experience. Traditionally, the church has called this "original sin" and has explained it with the myth of the fall. That was simply wrong. Survival is a quality found in life itself. There was no fall. Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are. There is thus no such thing as "original sin" from which we need to be rescued by a divine invader. So much of traditional Christianity assumes this false premise."

In conclusion, we are born sinless but we are not born perfect. We have the defect of selfishness and from that flows every other sin --- greed, gluttony, lust, anger, sloth and the like.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Pearl clutching
View attachment 284491

Judging from this thread it's also a standard, and eminently sensible, position for many Christians.
OB

My friend, yours seems to be the only sensible post I am reading lately, seeing as it is coming from an atheist. I'm getting replies that I am supposedly "fearful" of the enemy. I haven't even bothered to quote scripture with most of these people because quite frankly they don't believe the book they profess to have "faith" in, so there's no need.

Under those circumstances, I would find the conversation with someone like yourself more tolerable, as I think I've "learned" all I need to know at this point regarding my brethren.

Great picture, btw!

 

[Tinker Grey]

Years ago when I was a Christian (I may been an elder at the time) our church had a conference on prayer or healing or something. One of the sessions was based around a book written during the time of the "satanic panic". The book was distributed for the use of 1 or 2 chapters, but, in an attempt to be responsible, I read the whole thing.

At least one chapter was about satanic ritual abuse. What's fascinating is how people could eat this stuff up. But, the author expounded on the number of cases and sacrifices, etc. So, of course, I did the calculations. I don't remember now the numbers, but it came to something like this: In our county of about 100,000, about 50 children per day would need to go missing for the numbers to work (per year?, I don't remember). A) Somebody would have noticed, and B) we would have run out of children.

Now, neither the author nor the publisher could be bothered to check or care whether their claims were ludicrous.

I confronted the session leader about it and his lame response was that he didn't intend for the attendees to read the whole book.

The whole thing was just stupid.

 

[KayJoy]

As someone who experienced SRA firsthand and who also ministers to other survivors, it isn't important to me to debate with ones who want to refute this exists. (And btw, I have several confirmations by doctors of the traumas I survived, including rapes/sexual assaults, blunt force injuries, rib/shoulder/hip dislocations, mysterious "surgery" scars, trauma related medical conditions, etc.)

But that number is actually on the low end. People don't take into account that many of the babies and children used are ones who never got a birth certificate because they use their own children as breeders. My first pregnancy was at age 10, and my baby boy was taken by (late term) forced "abortion." This was considered a satanic sacrifice. Of course, they also will take full term babies and young children in actual ritual on altars.

Goodness, you people who think satan and demons don't exist wouldn't survive what I and other survivors experienced hundreds of times over from a very very young age.

 

[KayJoy]

Another source of SRA victims (used in sacrifice) is the vast homeless population and teen runaways...as well as child abductions. But abductions only account for a portion ...not the majority.

 

[JackRT]

One of the most famous cases of false satanic ritual abuse accusations occurred in Martensville Saskatchewan in the 1990s.

Martensville satanic sex scandal - Wikipedia

It illustrates the kind of hysteria that can arise from such accusations.

 

[essentialsaltes]

One of the most famous cases of false satanic ritual abuse accusations occurred in Martensville Saskatchewan in the 1990s.

Martensville satanic sex scandal - Wikipedia

What is it with Martens and Martins? This is one of the events that really opened my eyes to organized skepticism.
McMartin preschool trial - Wikipedia

 

[JackRT]

What is it with Martens and Martins? This is one of the events that really opened my eyes to organized skepticism.
McMartin preschool trial - Wikipedia

I am not entirely sure that I understand what you mean by "organized skepticism".

 

[essentialsaltes]

I am not entirely sure that I understand what you mean by "organized skepticism".

Sorry, organizations like CSICOP (now CSI).

 

[Hans Blaster]

How about the ritual Satanic abuse of children, and then their murder?

This isn't happening.

 

[Hidden In Him]

As someone who experienced SRA firsthand and who also ministers to other survivors, it isn't important to me to debate with ones who want to refute this exists. (And btw, I have several confirmations by doctors of the traumas I survived, including rapes/sexual assaults, blunt force injuries, rib/shoulder/hip dislocations, mysterious "surgery" scars, trauma related medical conditions, etc.)

But that number is actually on the low end. People don't take into account that many of the babies and children used are ones who never got a birth certificate because they use their own children as breeders. My first pregnancy was at age 10, and my baby boy was taken by (late term) forced "abortion." This was considered a satanic sacrifice. Of course, they also will take full term babies and young children in actual ritual on altars.

Goodness, you people who think satan and demons don't exist wouldn't survive what I and other survivors experienced hundreds of times over from a very very young age.

One's spiritual eyes have to be opened before he will even see the truth that such things are going on, which is why I give atheists a pass. Satanists perform murder as part of their religion, so the idea they would somehow be too dim to cover their tracks is the ultimate in naivete to me.

I may be done talking to others on this thread, but if you should be interested in responding, you seem to be one of only two or three at the most who have any idea what they are talking about on this subject.

God bless, and thanks for posting.

 

[RaymondG]

Another source of SRA victims (used in sacrifice) is the vast homeless population and teen runaways...as well as child abductions. But abductions only account for a portion ...not the majority.

Satanists perform murder as part of their religion, so the idea they would somehow be too dim to cover their tracks is the ultimate in naivete to me.

Can one of you link the existence of people who worship satan, to the actual existence of a being or demons? I have not given a opinion on the subject....just thought that mentioning how having worshipers validate the existence of the worshipped, would help your case.

Unless you are saying that all idols exists as live beings, if there are people who offer sacrifices to them....

 

[RaymondG]

you seem to be one of only two or three at the most who have any idea what they are talking about on this subject.

How does it make you feel to believe that your knowledge is more superior to everyone else?

In my experiences, one who is given truth by the one who is Truth, is not surprised or shocked or feel any superiority over those who have not. For it was given by grace, and not works, lest any man should boast.

 

[RaymondG]

This...
“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” — James 2:19 (KJV)

The context was that there was no mention in scripture that belief is devils was a requirement for salvation. so...... This...

"... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." --Acts 16:31

 

[JackRT]

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the parable we call the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney, an unwelcome character but not an evil one. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:”7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God. It was also the third-century Christian philosopher Origen of Alexandria who was the first to suggest that Lucifer actually was Satan or the devil. To most modern Christians, the concept of the Devil is a conflation of the serpent of Genesis, the Lucifer of Isaiah and the Satan of Job. This conflation is further supplemented by lurid medieval fiction like Dante's "Inferno".

 

[Carl Emerson]

Might have been easier to manage this topic on a christians only thread.

I am surprised that there has been little reference to scripture - specifically the strong warnings against witchcraft.

Deut 18
When you enter the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire,a practices divination or conjury, interprets omens, practices sorcery, 11casts spells, consults a medium or spiritist, or inquires of the dead. 12For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD. And because of these detestable things, the LORD your God is driving out the nations before you.13You must be blameless before the LORD your God. 14Though these nations, which you will dispossess, listen to conjurers and diviners, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Might have been easier to manage this topic on a christians only thread.

I am surprised that there has been little reference to scripture - specifically the strong warnings against witchcraft.

Deut 18
When you enter the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire,a practices divination or conjury, interprets omens, practices sorcery, 11casts spells, consults a medium or spiritist, or inquires of the dead. 12For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD. And because of these detestable things, the LORD your God is driving out the nations before you.13You must be blameless before the LORD your God. 14Though these nations, which you will dispossess, listen to conjurers and diviners, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so.

It is once again quite helpful to look at the root language. As I see it the thing we need to focus on here is the condemnation of the כַשֵּֽׁף (kashaph). The word has a contested meaning, with some arguing that it comes from a root meaning "to mutter" or "to whisper", while others argue for the meaning of "herb-using", as a compound of kash and hapalah; the latter interpretation is backed up by its translation in the LXX with φαρμακός (pharmakos), "herbalist", "poisoner", etc.

The condemnation here, like in many places, is the condemnation of pagan practices. We are not talking "magic" as a real, actual, existing force in the cosmos which some people--sorcerers, wizards, mages, witches, etc--somehow possess and can then do all kinds of fantastical feats.

As I see it, this has already been addressed. The problem is in reading the Bible and forcing into the text modern ideas of "witches" based upon modern fantasy-folklore.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

Does your conclusion include, and account for, the actions of Pharaoh's magicians?

 

[GTW27]

As someone who experienced SRA firsthand and who also ministers to other survivors, it isn't important to me to debate with ones who want to refute this exists. (And btw, I have several confirmations by doctors of the traumas I survived, including rapes/sexual assaults, blunt force injuries, rib/shoulder/hip dislocations, mysterious "surgery" scars, trauma related medical conditions, etc.)

But that number is actually on the low end. People don't take into account that many of the babies and children used are ones who never got a birth certificate because they use their own children as breeders. My first pregnancy was at age 10, and my baby boy was taken by (late term) forced "abortion." This was considered a satanic sacrifice. Of course, they also will take full term babies and young children in actual ritual on altars.

Goodness, you people who think satan and demons don't exist wouldn't survive what I and other survivors experienced hundreds of times over from a very very young age.

Blessing in Christ Jesus! I am sorry, that in this place, no one came forward to tell you, that they are sorry you had to suffer so much, and indeed you have. But know this, The Lord in His tender mercies heals and restores all that the enemy has taken. He replaces all the suffering and pain with Himself which in it's season is joy unspeakable and a peace that surpasses understanding.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Does your conclusion include, and account for, the actions of Pharaoh's magicians?

Do you believe that mere human beings have the power to turn sticks into snakes? I don't. So what is more likely, that Pharaoh's court "magicians" really had super powers and could create life from non-life? Or that they practiced trickery and slight of hand?

-CryptoLutheran