Wired: How to Date the Grand Canyon: Go With the Flow

[ChordatesLegacy]

Baggins
I did miss the point about it being source rock. So what? Its still oil from the place it was first stored during a single event. why not?
Moderate heat over time is speculation. Not witnessed and not tested.

I have never studied for a answer to oil seeping thru rock and so to its final rest. I know however that there was no time and so processes can be found that speeded things up.
I'm not a oil interest person and only know basic creationists ideas on it.
It just is obvious and should be the first conclusion that a liquid from living matter must of come from a sudden event that changed its composition. Long processes are unlikely.
Organic collection and pressure squeezing, whixh probably is the source of the heat, fits better with great events.
I doubt oil anywhere on earth is being created even on embryonic form.

I don't understand why you say oil is being made in this english place?
Rob byers

I have read all the posts on this thread, and the only conclusion is that you do not want the truth.

Kimmeridge Clay is organic rich shale of Jurassic age; in areas where it has been buried to depth it gives up its organic material as oil and/or gas depending on temperature.

Below is a picture from the south coast of Britain where the friction of a land slip as ignited the shale.






Now not to confuse you; oil companies never drill into Kimmeridge clay for oil of gas as it does not have the porosity and permeability to be a reservoir rock. Good reservoir rocks are like the Bridport Sands (picture below b) have high porosity and permeability.


Of course you also need a cap rock that is impermeable to oil and gas flow to complete the cycle.

What am I doing; I have a science paper to finish and here I am procrastinating.

Look read about it yourself here a good link if you really want to learn something.

LINK openlearn.open University

But I have a feeling you are totally indoctrinated and will never take anything seriously that impinges on your magical mystical view of creation.

 

[RobertByers]

Baggins.
Are you sure?
The oil is being created from rock? Since when does rock create oil? Its organic ooze that is sitting there or as your trying to say is being heated from raw organic material into oil?
You said with my own eyes I can see it being created. Then you said its oozing. Which is it. What was the pe-ooz state.?
You mean the oil in the hand at that momment did not exist the day before?
I'm confused.
How is the source rock creating oil?
You want to commit to this/
Rob byers

 

[RobertByers]

Chordatestlagacy
I read your link and it says nothing new to me and just the same old speculation jazz.
I think you guys misunderstand that oil was created but now just sits. Its not being created today in nature. Thats why it gets depleted.
Your just accepting the ideas of the books you read and not analysising it yourself.
Somethings not adding up here.
Do you agree with Baggins the oil coming out of that english place is being CREATED before ones eyes? It seems rather it is just coming out from a storage place.

 

[Baggins]

Baggins.
Are you sure?
The oil is being created from rock? Since when does rock create oil?

Yes oil is created from rock. I find it bizarre that you can argue away that oil isn't created these days without knowing the first thing about how it is formed.

See the picture in the post above, those blck cliffs, the rocks in those cliffs produce oil.

Its organic ooze that is sitting there or as your trying to say is being heated from raw organic material into oil?

If you heat a black, organic rich shale or clay it will produce oil.

You said with my own eyes I can see it being created. Then you said its oozing. Which is it. What was the pe-ooz state.?

You heat the rock and oil oozes out

You mean the oil in the hand at that momment did not exist the day before?

No I don't. but I mean where the rock is in the oil window oil is being created and capilliary pressure is forcing it up, some of that eventually comes out of the cliffs at Kimmeridge bay.

I'm confused.

You're not kidding

How is the source rock creating oil?

Heat acting on its kerogen content.

You want to commit to this/

Well seeing as I have spent the last 20 years in the oil industry I think I have got the basic right.

 

[Baggins]

Do you agree with Baggins the oil coming out of that english place is being CREATED before ones eyes? It seems rather it is just coming out from a storage place.

It isn't coming out of a storage place, it is coming out of the rock that produced it, it wasn't produced at the surface, it was produced down dip where the rock is in the oil window. If oil wasn't being continuously produced then the oil at the surface at kimmeridge bay would soon dry up because the capillary action drawing it up would stop.

Edited to say:

The Kimmeridge Clay at Kimmeridge Bay is thermally immature and isn't producing the commercial oil deposits in the area. That comes from the Blue Lias. It is heated enough to sweat small amounts of oil seen when you go to parts of Kimmeridge Bay and touch the rocks, and this is being drawn up by capilliary action from deeper warmer parts of the rock.

I thought I better make that clear, if the kimmeridge clay was thermally mature here it would running down the cliffs.

There are plenty of oil seeps along the Dorset coast, but usually associated with the Cretaceous as at Ossmington Mills.

But the Kimmeridge Clay is important because it is a source rock, in the North Sea for instance, and it does show oil bleeding from the rock showing that oil is being produced from this rock.

This can be shown to be coming from this rock because it has a different geochemical signature to the oil from the Blue Lias.

I'm not sure whether you will be able to understand what I am getting at based on past experience, but hopefully it isn't to complicated.

 

[TheBear]

I read your link and it says nothing new to me and just the same old speculation jazz.

If it's all nothing but wild speculation, how do you account for their proven results? Is that just pure luck.....each and every time?

 

[lemmings]

I would like to thank everyone here for their valiant efforts. Learning by osmosis has been insightful for me at least.

 

[thaumaturgy]

The oil is being created from rock? Since when does rock create oil?

Oil is from the organics trapped in the rock as it was still little pieces of sediment settling out of a standing body of water.

The Kimmeridge is a shale which means it is made up at least in part of clay minerals which tend to be very fine and small particles. Note these take a goodly amount of time to accumulate in large volumes.

Its organic ooze that is sitting there or as your trying to say is being heated from raw organic material into oil?

Scientists know how organic materials of algal or bacterial nature break down under temperature and pressure conditions.

We know what happens to the various chemical compounds as they cleave off carbons and what is left over.

Interestingly enough, we find the kinds of things in oil that we expect to find from the thermal degradation of algal and microbial materials. That is how we know most oil is biological in nature.

As you've heard Baggins say time and again in this thread, there is an OIL WINDOW. What he means is this is the optimum temperature where THERMAL CRACKING occurs which produces oil from an organically loaded source rock.

In the case of the Kimmeridge the oil was probably formed when the Kimmeridge was much more deeply buried. It is now "spewing out" of the Kimmeridge as it is exposed at the surface.

But what it really shows and you should note well, is that scientists are seeing what a source rock does when it is buried deeply and out of sight.

We are lucky to see the Kimmeridge pushing out its oil. Because it is a DIRECT OBSERVATION EVERY DAY OF WHAT COUNTLESS OTHER DEEPLY BURIED SOURCE ROCKS ARE DOING EVERY SINGLE DAY OF EVERY YEAR.

What more evidence do you need?

You said with my own eyes I can see it being created. Then you said its oozing. Which is it. What was the pe-ooz state.?
You mean the oil in the hand at that momment did not exist the day before?

We know the conditions organics require to form oil. Likely that oil was formed long ago when it was more deeply buried. What you are seeing is a process called MIGRATION.

How is the source rock creating oil?
You want to commit to this/
Rob byers

If you see a brand new Ford Mustang coming out of a giant factory that has the word "FORD AUTOMOTIVE MANUFACTURING" plastered on the outside walls, what conclusions do you draw about the scenario?

 

[RobertByers]

Everybody
Oh I get what your saying.
This is NOT oil CREATION. Why do you think it is?
The "oil" in fact is processed organic material (some said from long ago) that is merely heated. This is no more creating oil then whale blubber created oil in the old days.
The rocks are not creating oil. I didn't think so. Its impossible.

There was a lot I was ignorant here about.
So the material, being thrust up as a earth movement, and now heated, somehow, is creating oil.

I insist this is just heating up the original organics. The organics is the actual source of the oil and the subject we are contending on. Actual oil likewise was organics processed and then heat/pressure and the resulting oil kept contained.

I don't see you can say from this oil is being created today.
All thats happening is a last act. A special case.
The organic material here was created very quickly in a event and stored in its place now. The heating is after the fact.

I wonder why you guys were committing to a seemingly impossible thing.
Your misunderstanding that this is just a spevial last act of a event a few thousands years ago.

I didn't know this was happening however. Oil/gas is not my study except I understand basic principals of its creation.
This is not creation but mere change of substance.
You split the atom on me of what we mean by oil. Oil is organics largely in essence.
This my close questioning.

Do you agree therefore oil today is not being created from start to finish.?

 

[Split Rock]

There was a lot I was ignorant here about.

Note this statement. I will refer back to it.

I insist this is just heating up the original organics.

Based on what... your ignorance (see above)?

I don't see you can say from this oil is being created today.

Again is this based on your ignorance (see above)?

I wonder why you guys were committing to a seemingly impossible thing.

Seemingly impossible.. for the ignorant?

I didn't know this was happening however. Oil/gas is not my study except I understand basic principals of its creation

So, oil/gas is not your study (see above) except for the basic principles of its creation... which you claimed you were ignorant of??

 

[Baggins]

Everybody
Oh I get what your saying.
This is NOT oil CREATION. Why do you think it is?

Because an organic shale is being heated and it is producing oil due to the heat that wasn't there before.

The "oil" in fact is processed organic material (some said from long ago) that is merely heated. This is no more creating oil then whale blubber created oil in the old days.

Noticed how you used the word created there thus handily destroying your own argument.

Thanks for saving me the bother

The rocks are not creating oil. I didn't think so. Its impossible.

The organic matter is part of the rock, therefore the rock creates the oil.

I shudder to think what you actually think a rock is, but I think you need to check a dictionary out on this one.

There was a lot I was ignorant here about.

You're not kidding

So the material, being thrust up as a earth movement, and now heated, somehow, is creating oil.

Well the material that is being heated, in the cases given a black shale, is creating the oil.

I insist this is just heating up the original organics.

Did we ever claim it was anything else? It is your inability to comprehend anything but the simplest of statements that seems to lead to the problems.

The organics is the actual source of the oil and the subject we are contending on.

Well done, you've learnt something there.

Actual oil likewise was organics processed and then heat/pressure and the resulting oil kept contained.

Well done again.

I don't see you can say from this oil is being created today.

Because you can see it happening all you need is a black shale that is heated to around 100C and you will get oil.

You can pick up a bit of black shale andd put it over a flame and it will produce oil, you can stick a temperature gauge down a borehole and find out at what depth the rock heats up to 100C.

If you black shale intersects with the depth where the rocks reach 100C what is to stop it producing oil?

Answer that one Mr Byers

All thats happening is a last act. A special case.

Of course it is.

The organic material here was created very quickly in a event and stored in its place now. The heating is after the fact.

THe material wasn't created very quickly at all, the majority of it was produced my microscopic plankton accumulating in an anoxic sea basin over 100,000s of years. There was minor input of terriginous organics in teh form of leaves and spores this seem to have had a short residence time on teh shelf, so in my thesis on teh organic content of the Kimmeridge Clay I suggested that their input to the basin by passed residence time on the shelf by utilising sub sea canyons.

The heating was after the deposition and lithification, in factthe heating continues to this day.

I wonder why you guys were committing to a seemingly impossible thing.

We weren't

Your misunderstanding that this is just a spevial last act of a event a few thousands years ago.

I don't misunderstand it, I studied at post graduate level for a year and wrote a published thesis on it ( in the NERC archives ).

I didn't know this was happening however. Oil/gas is not my study

Obviously, but It is mine, and yet you still have the hubris to think that you know better than me.

Quite remarkable.

except I understand basic principals of its creation.

I somehow doubt that

This is not creation but mere change of substance.

You need to look up a definition of creation really don't you, let's not start arguing semantics here. the oil is created from rock.

You split the atom on me of what we mean by oil. Oil is organics largely in essence.

There are some people who believe that oil has an abiogenic origin. I am not one of them. I believe that some small amounts of gas may be produced abiogenically but the commercial oil we produce can be absolutely tied back to source rocks by geochemical typing.

This my close questioning.

Hurrah

Do you agree therefore oil today is not being created from start to finish.?

No the evidence shows that oil is being created, migrated, emplaced and extracted today.

You can only argue against that by totally ignoring all the evidence as you are doing

 

[RobertByers]

Baggins.
Oil is not today being created from start to finish because the start is the collection of the organic material. This isn't, I think, going on anywhere and then being followed by the steps to make it into a pre-heated material.

I'm not saying I know more then you.
You know what you were taught. You accept on faith the work of other men. You never developed the historical foundation of geology yourself.
This is what creationism challenges.
We don't challenge geology but rather historical geology. past and gone events.

The operative words are deposition and lithification (sp).
The heating or pressure/heating etc is not the actual creation of oil but a mere reshaping of the substance.
The origin of the oil is from sudden events including heating and some special cases where heating takes place later.
The rocks don't create the oil but merely store the organic material.
I didn't understand the organics were in raw form still. I learned that
no matter however to creationism.
Oil is not created today anywhere I believe.
Only the last act of manipulated organic material composition change, by heating, takes place here and there.
I don't know if its common for this last act to be happening under the sea.

 

[Baggins]

Baggins.
Oil is not today being created from start to finish because the start is the collection of the organic material. This isn't, I think, going on anywhere and then being followed by the steps to make it into a pre-heated material.

I'm sorry to have to say this but you appear to be quite the low watt bulb. This is the thrird time in a day I have had to explain to you exactly why it is inevitable that oil is being produced in the ground today:

1) If you heat an organic rich shale to between 60-100c it produces oil. That is a FACT

2) There is a measurable temperature gradient in th eearth's crust. that is a FACT

3) That temperature gradient reaches 100c, that is a FACT

4) There are organic rich shales in the earths crust, that is a FACT

5) In places the organic rich shales enter the temperature gradient range of 60-100c, that is a FACT

Each one of those points is factually correct. In their entirity they mean that oil must be being produced from organic shales in the earths crust right now.

Has that finally penetrated your cranium?

We have already been through a discussion of a site where you can literally wipe th eoil film off the surface of an organic shale.

I can't really see what more I can do. If it doesn't sink in this time we will just have to admit to each other that it is beyond your intellectual grasp.

There are conditions producing organic rich shales in the Black Sea today, that is a fact. The bottom of the Black sea is anoxic. Animals and plants and plankton live in teh Black sea, they inevitably die, they fall to the sea floor, the lack of oxygen means that they aren't eaten by other animals and bacteria, over the millenia these are building upp and turning into organic rich shales. that is a fact as drilling in the Black sea has shown,

Simple facts totally destroy your position.

Black shales are being produced, they were produced in the past, they make oil. It is really all quite simple.

I'm not saying I know more then you.

But you are saying I am lying in that case.

You know what you were taught. You accept on faith the work of other men. Y

No I don't I have a published thesis on the organic content of the Kimmeridge Clay from a site in Aylesbury UK.

I collected a number of pieces of black clay, I washed tthem in HCl and HF to remove carbonates and sillicates. I sieved and sieved, I plated up diluted samples of the filtrate and examined these slides under high powered microscopes making statistically valid counts of the organic material in teh clay. I also carried out various geochemical tests on the clay. After collectingthe evidence and I studied it and came to conclusions about how the clay was deposited.

That is what scientists do, original work. I didn't accept things on faith I checked their validity against new data. That is, also, what scientists do, we don't accept things on faith.

You never developed the historical foundation of geology yourself.
This is what creationism challenges.

I have checked the foundations of geology against new data and found it accurate. Creationism challenges nothing it is a series of ad hoc explanations required for you to believe a 3000 year old text is true. If Creationism challenged anything it would be used by industry to make money.

The proof is in the pudding and yours hasn't got any paying takers.

We don't challenge geology but rather historical geology. past and gone events.

Challenging in this context implies putting forward evidence, you have failed to do this, you put forward ad hoc explanations based on ignorance and unsupported by original work.

The operative words are deposition and lithification (sp).

The heating or pressure/heating etc is not the actual creation of oil but a mere reshaping of the substance.

No it creates oil. Oil is a set of liquid short chain hydrocarbons, what it is made from is a set of solid complex hydrocarbons.

You are verging in off into pointless semantics now just like every other Creationist I have ever come across.

The origin of the oil is from sudden events including heating and some special cases where heating takes place later.

Oil is not produced by sudden heating events, they destroy oil by turning it into carbon dioxide and water.

The rocks don't create the oil but merely store the organic material.

The rocks are the organic material, you really have zero understanding of the very basics of geology.

I didn't understand the organics were in raw form still. I learned that
no matter however to creationism.

You admit your ignorance and still suggest that you know better than me, you are a piece of work.

Oil is not created today anywhere I believe.

You believe wrongly as I have shown repeatedly

Only the last act of manipulated organic material composition change, by heating, takes place here and there.

Of course

I don't know if its common for this last act to be happening under the sea.

You don't know many things.

 

[BigCedar]

Robert,
I see the wiggle room you think you have to continue your argument.

If you were an honest person you would ask these questions:

Is shale still being produced today?
Are the materials that form shale still being produced today?

Instead of looking for a way to hold that room open to squirm and scratch and gnaw.

 

[Baggins]

I fear a report may be coming if I have to keep on repeating the same answers over and over again to Mr Byers, I'm not very civil at the best of times.

The lack of reports, even when I belittle him, also leads me to call Poe.

Most of the real creationists i have had spats with going running to mummy pretty quickly when they realise I will give as good as i get and i know a lot more about science than they do.

There's been two in teh last few months who spring to mind immediately.

No names no pack drill.

But real Creationists usually have the thinest of skins whereas the poes will take anything to keep the pretense going.

Perhaps we should all be jolly nasty to mr Byers and see if he cries uncle and reports.

But having posted this it wouldn't be conclusive now anyway.

 

[RobertByers]

Baggins.
I was right and you were wrong.
All five of your points are true or can be but it changes nothing.
Oil is only the last act of a process. without the first acts it can't exist.
So oil being produced today is unlikely on this equation.
I know heating shale or whale blubber makes oil.
Thats not the point.

I was educated that raw material (shale etc) is sitting around waiting for a match. I didn't know this.
No matter I did know that oil comes from collected organics and then processed by pressure/heat into oil. I insist this is where most oil comes from. A sudden event like the flood or other events later.

You say the sea today in special acidic conditions receives dead life and so its on its way to starting the process.
i say this is too little and anyways its not being collected in a bunch but spread out. That this could ever, even in time, become bunched organics with change and then wait for heat IS UNLIKELY.
Oil is not in process today from start to finish.
This is about the origins of oil and not the origins of the last stage of a process.
Words matter because concepts matter.

I accept you did some research but its still on someone elses premises about the bigger concepts.
overthrow the old concepts like i have with biogeography and biology by attacking convergent evolution.

I still say oil is not created today.
I know about the shale and the heat. This is not oil but a last act.

You just made a minor slip in your thinking on cause and effect.

 

[RobertByers]

Robert,
I see the wiggle room you think you have to continue your argument.

If you were an honest person you would ask these questions:

Is shale still being produced today?
Are the materials that form shale still being produced today?

Instead of looking for a way to hold that room open to squirm and scratch and gnaw.

I am a honest person.
I don't think shale is produced today. I would need evidence.
The materials forming shale I understand to be the organic remains of life with some more to the receipe. I don't see them being collected to make shale for lack of material and time and the agency of collection.

Have you understood the discussion here?
It was about oil. not shale.
The oil was coming from heated shale but was not being created from start to finish. The magic of oil is the organic material and not mere heat. Otherwise oil problems in the world would not exist.

Do you honestly believe oil is being created today? Honest. No tricks

 

[Baggins]

Baggins.
I was right and you were wrong.

And you're a Poe, a very good one, but still a Poe so you are going on ignore.

But thanks for letting me explain the basics of oil generation in terms anyone could understand except Robert Byers

Thank you and goodnight.

 

[Molal]

I think Baggins has explained and discussed admirably. I am dissappointed with Robert - you have seen the evidence, viewed the published data and failed to recognize the truth.

Thank you for participating.

 

[RobertByers]

I think Baggins has explained and discussed admirably. I am dissappointed with Robert - you have seen the evidence, viewed the published data and failed to recognize the truth.

Thank you for participating.

I'll let the voters decide.
I welcome the whole world to red the discussion and indeed be educated about why evolution and company are still around.
I didn't know moderators were judging things here.
If so why not end all discussion and let the moderators decide whether creationism or evolutionism is right.
It was a good discussion and everyone could learn something on many levels. I thought it was fine. Yes I had the advantage but I also learned things.
I brought close scrunity to the claims made very carelessly.
I won the thread.
Baggins is a competent poster in these areas but needs to weigh evidence better in conclusions about earth sciences and whether I'm one of these Poe's. (Whatever that is)
No need for anger here. I'm having fun.
However someones right and someones wrong. Intelligent people under close discussion should discover the actual truth on the issue of the thread.
Robert Byers