Wine vs. Grape Juice

[New Legacy]

So Jesus made alcohol for people drink after they had all the wine that was there already at the wedding feast? That sounds like a drunken party with the Lord participating.

We don't know how much wine they had and how many people were there.

 

[Lion King]

It existed for only a matter of hours during a particular part of the year, the opposite side of the year in which the Passover occurs in fact.

Grape juice existed only in vineyards for a very short period of time. In fact, it would have been partially fermented from the get go. So actually - there was no 0.00% alcoholic grape juice.

I'm glad we are in agreement that grape juice was in existence even before the time of Moses.

 

[Lion King]

Have you had organic non-sulfite added wine to see if the trace amounts set you off?

I've found staying away from all forms of sulphite, even in trace amounts, is beneficial to my health.

 

[New Legacy]

I'm glad we are in agreement that grape juice was in existence even before the time of Moses.

I have said from the beginning that it existed for a very brief period. There is no reason for you to be acting surprised or elated by what I have consistently said.

What you have done and are doing is backing away from the initial arguments by acting as if this was about whether alcohol technically existed for a brief moment of time.

 

[PaladinValer]

So Jesus made alcohol for people drink after they had all the wine that was there already at the wedding feast? That sounds like a drunken party with the Lord participating.

1. So the fact that wine was present automatically means everyone is drunk off their rocker? Fallacy of Slippery Slope
2. The Steward didn't say the guests were drunk; he was comparing how, unlike normal, the best wine was saved for last when normally, it was the first to be served and inferior later since may, normally, would be intoxicated and wouldn't know the difference. Indeed, the fact that the Steward could tell the difference means that, if anything, the people were sober enough to tell the difference.

Finally, the Greek word use that the Steward describes the contents of the jars that Jesus performed His first miracle on is oinos, which in Greek referred to fermented wine.

 

[freezerman2000]

We wash and treat the grapes to make them sterile. Then we put them through sterile processing machines, which makes sterile juice. Then we take the sterile juice and place them in perfectly sealed sterile containers. Then we heat it up to kill off the bacteria. Since life must come from life - there is no way for the grape juice to spoil.

-technically, sterile might not be the right word, but you know what I mean

You beat me to it..Pasteurization is the process.

 

[freezerman2000]

I'm glad we are in agreement that grape juice was in existence even before the time of Moses.

Why cherry pick only the parts you agree with? It is not winning you or the biblical record any points at all.

 

[Lion King]

I have said from the beginning that it existed for a very brief period. There is no reason for you to be acting surprised or elated by what I have consistently said.

What you have done and are doing is backing away from the initial arguments by acting as if this was about whether alcohol technically existed for a brief moment of time.

Well, if you believe that grape juice was in existence even in the time of Moses, then what were we disagreeing about?

 

[Lion King]

Why cherry pick only the parts you agree with? It is not winning you or the biblical record any points at all.

The rest of his posts were strawman arguments.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Thomas Welch pasteurized grape juice in 1869. Welches is a large if not the largest producer of grape juice. Welch was a Methodist. Methodists commune with grape juice. If you want to know why wine was sufficient for 1,869 years of Christendom before the introduction of grape juice for communion, follow the money.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

So Jesus made alcohol for people drink after they had all the wine that was there already at the wedding feast? That sounds like a drunken party with the Lord participating.

I had wine at my wedding. We had to go and get more. Nobody was drunk, though.

I have said from the beginning that it existed for a very brief period. There is no reason for you to be acting surprised or elated by what I have consistently said.

What you have done and are doing is backing away from the initial arguments by acting as if this was about whether alcohol technically existed for a brief moment of time.

"Grape juice" back then is not the grape juice we have now, which is why I keep making the argument that grape juice didn't exist back then. He thinks he is refuting my argument by using your agreement with him.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thomas Welch pasteurized grape juice in 1869. Welches is a large if not the largest producer of grape juice. Welch was a Methodist. Methodists commune with grape juice.

If you want to know why wine was sufficient for 1,869 years of Christendom before the introduction of grape juice for communion, follow the money.

I am trying to, but "Obamanomics" is making it difficult......

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

...........The self-righteous Pharisees and scribes, acknowledged by Yeshua as the legitimate religious teachers of the Jews (Matt. 23:1-3), should have been the ones telling these people of God's love for them. They should have been the ones teaching these sinners, exhorting them to return to God and receive His love and forgiveness.
However, because of their faith in their own righteousness and their contempt for these tax collectors and sinners who didn't measure up to their standards, the Pharisees and scribes excluded them and considered them accursed (John 7:49).

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13). The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua.
The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man............


Moneys Too Tight To Mention - YouTube


.

 

[PaladinValer]

The rest of his posts were strawman arguments.

Wrong. The Straw Man is to pick and choose as your post clearly did and ignore the rest of the post which puts what was picked and chosen in its proper context.

The Logical Fallacies: Straw Man

Your arguments are all invalid, null, and void. They are pick and choose, ignore historical fact, even when presented by peer-reviewed historians at that, and are based in biblical eisegesis. And I bet dollars to doughnuts that practically every single worth their beans will agree with this and I dearly hope they all openly do so.

Folks, at this point, we all know what this sort of style means, so it goes without saying: don't feed that which regenerates 3 hps per combat round.

 

[SwordFall]

So Jesus made alcohol for people drink after they had all the wine that was there already at the wedding feast? That sounds like a drunken party with the Lord participating.

So Jesus turned water to grape juice at a wedding feast?
Were all the participants kids with sippy cups?

 

[SwordFall]

Thomas Welch pasteurized grape juice in 1869. Welches is a large if not the largest producer of grape juice. Welch was a Methodist. Methodists commune with grape juice. If you want to know why wine was sufficient for 1,869 years of Christendom before the introduction of grape juice for communion, follow the money.

Welch had invented a way to pasteurize grape juice so that it wouldn't spoil quickly, a technique which quite frankly wouldn't have been practical two thousand years ago, and thus was never done.

Methodists also believe alcohol is the Devil's juice, having even been the frontliners of the Prohibition in the early 1900's.
So go figure.

 

[OGM]

Why were the Methodists so "anti-wine"? I wonder how they resolved all of the scriptures about wine?

 

[SwordFall]

I wonder how they resolved all of the scriptures about wine?

By not thoroughly interpreting the Bible.

It's really just that simple, because it's the only way one could come to the conclusion that wine should be replaced with grape juice.

The Bible has a sizable amount to say about alcohol, but nowhere is it actually condemned.
Scripture speaks of drunkenness, or in a clearer context, warns about problems which can arise from alcoholism.

The irony is that it only takes basic knowledge of Scripture to know that, which is why I've always been both bemused and a bit frustrated with all these Christians going to such lengths to demonize alcohol, or to take it out of everything.


And then there's the observation that conviction against alcohol came well before the notion that wine was just 'grape juice'. They decided that the disciples nor Jesus should have ever drunk wine, and so they make all these lame attempts to try and say they didn't or to 'prove' it was wine.

Fortunately, it can and has been proven, as it would have been pretty much impossible for them to have grape juice through the year from harvest.
It's just an example of uneducated fringes through Christendom trying to make a big deal out of random things is all.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Grape juice was always used. It is God who requested His follower not to drink alcohol. Why would He then use it as a symbol of His pure, holy blood shed for us?
Jesus is sinless and all things that represented Christ was to be without blemish. Wine is blemished! The grape juice is the pure thing. Alcohol is tainted, therefore can not represent Christ's blood.

How can that be if juice spoils or ferments within a short period of time?
Alcohol is a natural preservative.

If believing such makes some happy, who are we to spoil such happiness.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think its most likely that Jesus drank wine at the Last Supper, though its not explicitly mentioned. However, that was not the argument.

These people are arguing that there was no such thing as grape juice in ancient Israel. According to some here, it's only a modern invention and none in the ancient times drank freshly squeezed (unfermented) juice from grapes.

If I had a press, the fresh grape juice would have been a rare and short lived treat.

My ancestors put up apple juice and grape juice in barrels; there are many in rural communities who still do. Almost all Amish and Mennonites in our area still do too. We sure enjoyed the fresh stuff, but we enjoyed the fermented (preserved) stuff too; right through to the next harvest.

 

[Lion King]

If I had a press, the fresh grape juice would have been a rare and short lived treat.

My ancestors put up apple juice and grape juice in barrels; there are many in rural communities who still do. Almost all Amish and Mennonites in our area still do too. We sure enjoyed the fresh stuff, but we enjoyed the fermented (preserved) stuff too; right through to the next harvest.

Well, according to some here, there was no such thing as "fresh grape juice" before Mr Welch.