Wine vs. Grape Juice

[graceandpeace]

Okay, my immediate disclaimer is that I am aware that there is a "Sacrament/Ordinance" sub-forum, but I think I will receive more responses with this post here.

The use of wine vs. grape juice for communion has, in recent times, become one of my faith stumbling blocks as I try to seek a faith home.

I have only ever been a member of two churches in my Christian walk - & both were Wesleyan oriented or shared Wesleyan heritage, so grape juice was used for communion. Recently, however, I have begun to question the use of juice over wine, which would be more traditionally correct for the sacrament. Still, grapes are "fruit of the vine" whether there remains an alcohol content or not in making a drink - so wine or juice is still from grapes.

So, what say you? If you believe it should be wine or grape juice, can you please make your case for why?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The simple answer is that they didn't have grape juice back then. Everything was fermented, so it had to be wine that Jesus used at the Last Supper.

Given that, why would anyone want to substitute grape juice?

Allergies? One of my closest friends is allergic to most wines, but can take communion without any issues. When people tell me they don't like taking common cup at communion because of germs, I ask them if they really think they're going to get sick from the Lord's Supper.

 

[Adam Warlock]

The simple answer is that they didn't have grape juice back then. Everything was fermented, so it had to be wine that Jesus used at the Last Supper.

Given that, why would anyone want to substitute grape juice?...

100% this. All because we can do something different doesn't mean that we should. Wine is what Christ used, wine is what the Early Church used, wine is what all Christians used until extremely recent times (are we ready to say that ALL of them were wrong?), and recent American ideas do not change those facts. We should listen to the biblical and historical witness, not the Temperance era. No offense meant to anyone.

 

[Standing Up]

This may be a dumb question, but in bread, there is leavened and unleavened.

Is there the same type of thing in wine? (or in grape juice?) Both are from the vine, is one fermented and one not?

 

[PaladinValer]

Okay, my immediate disclaimer is that I am aware that there is a "Sacrament/Ordinance" sub-forum, but I think I will receive more responses with this post here.

The use of wine vs. grape juice for communion has, in recent times, become one of my faith stumbling blocks as I try to seek a faith home.

I have only ever been a member of two churches in my Christian walk - & both were Wesleyan oriented or shared Wesleyan heritage, so grape juice was used for communion. Recently, however, I have begun to question the use of juice over wine, which would be more traditionally correct for the sacrament. Still, grapes are "fruit of the vine" whether there remains an alcohol content or not in making a drink - so wine or juice is still from grapes.

So, what say you? If you believe it should be wine or grape juice, can you please make your case for why?

Historically, it was always wine, and the reason for that is because grape juice as we have it today never existed back then.

Jesus Himself, according to the Chief Steward in His first miracle, turned water into not just any wine, but really GOOD wine. Back then, they usually diluted wine, but Jesus makes pure wine; undiluted.

Would Jesus do this if alcohol was forbidden?

I might add that both John and Charles Wesley, being good Anglican priests right to the end, used only wine for Holy Communion.

 

[football5680]

The Bible says wine and drinking alcohol is not a sin so trying to insinuate that it was actually grape juice has no backing. You can also refer to the writings of the earliest Christians as well and they were using wine so this would be what they learned from the apostles.

 

[ViaCrucis]

My church and the one prior offer[ed] both wine and grape juice. Just like we also have the option to either intinct or take the bread and cup separately. At my previous church intinction wasn't an option, rather one could receive from the common cup or go up to the altar rail with one of those communion shot glasses.

But that's all neither here nor there I guess. I'd say as long as it's from the vine it's acceptable. Whether it's fermented or pasteurized it's still the fruit of the vine. My preference is to stick with tradition and receive wine because it's what has always been used in the Lord's Supper as it's what our Lord Himself offered at His Last Supper when He instituted His Holy Meal, with pasteurized grape juice not available until modern times.

Whether we use white wine or red wine, or whether it's fermented or unfermented, whether it's leavened or unleavened bread--all these things kind of fall under the category of adiaphora. Let each be convinced in his/her own mind, abiding by conscience sort of deal--to the glory of God.

Now if you want to start using vodka and cheetos, well that's kind of crossing the line a bit over to the realm of silly.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Willie T]

I do love this place. I suppose God gets a kick out of it, too.

 

[graceandpeace]

Thanks y'all.

I do think historically & traditionally, wine is the deal - but I just don't know if using grape juice is a church "deal breaker" for me. I have only ever had grape juice for communion, which works out for someone who really doesn't like wine at all, lol. I certainly don't think alcohol is sinful or anything like that, just trying to think about anything & everything on my church seeking journey.

 

[Standing Up]

So grape juice turns into wine via fermentation via naturally occurring yeast (but no added yeast (against Passover idea)).
Fermentation in winemaking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The symbolism is interesting of bread and wine.

Bread unleavened, "dead" body.
Wine leavened, "alive" spirit.

Does it matter if you reverse that?

Bread leavened.
Wine unleavened (grape juice).

Probably doesn't, if the symbolism has been lost in the first place.

 

[maco]

It doesn't matter if it's unfermented grape juice or fermented grape juice. The power is in the story, not the props. Personally I would favor using unfermented grape juice due to the weakness of others. There are some who believe drinking fermented wine is a sin and there are others who struggle with alcoholism. It's important not to be a stumbling block.

 

[Lion King]

Grape juice, wine..it's all the same to me.

Personally, would prefer grape juice as I'm allergic to wine and also don't drink alcohol.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay, my immediate disclaimer is that I am aware that there is a "Sacrament/Ordinance" sub-forum, but I think I will receive more responses with this post here.

The use of wine vs. grape juice for communion has, in recent times, become one of my faith stumbling blocks as I try to seek a faith home.

I have only ever been a member of two churches in my Christian walk - & both were Wesleyan oriented or shared Wesleyan heritage, so grape juice was used for communion. Recently, however, I have begun to question the use of juice over wine, which would be more traditionally correct for the sacrament. Still, grapes are "fruit of the vine" whether there remains an alcohol content or not in making a drink - so wine or juice is still from grapes.

So, what say you? If you believe it should be wine or grape juice, can you please make your case for why?

Grape juice, wine..it's all the same to me.

Personally, would prefer grape juice as I'm allergic to wine and also don't drink alcohol.

Jesus used wine. If it does not matter to you to follow the example set by Jesus it ought to.

 

[Albion]

It doesn't matter if it's unfermented grape juice or fermented grape juice. The power is in the story, not the props.

Not really. The Last Supper was a highly symbolic restructuring of the Passover meal which required certain features. Since Jesus commanded his disciples to repeat the Supper, it is hard to imagine how it would be possible to do that by, for example, gathering to think about it only. OR, for that matter, to have a round of pizza and beer and call it a re-enactment of the Lord's Supper as we were instructed to do.

Personally I would favor using unfermented grape juice due to the weakness of others.

Chances are, there are few people who are going to be tempted to get drunk by seeing a row of people receive a tiny sip of any particular fluid.

It may be that it doesn't matter much whether wine or juice is used, but what Jesus used was certainly wine, so it makes sense to use wine for this purpose ourselves, perhaps making provision for the occasional person who cannot.

 

[RDKirk]

I consider it a point of adiaphora as well.

I would note that Justin Martyr reported in the 2nd century that they cut their wine with water during their services. Other reading I've done indicates that cutting the wine with water was the common way of taking it during meals.

Or if we take 1 Timothy 5 into consideration, maybe they were cutting their water with wine.

 

[Kristos]

Okay, my immediate disclaimer is that I am aware that there is a "Sacrament/Ordinance" sub-forum, but I think I will receive more responses with this post here.

The use of wine vs. grape juice for communion has, in recent times, become one of my faith stumbling blocks as I try to seek a faith home.

I have only ever been a member of two churches in my Christian walk - & both were Wesleyan oriented or shared Wesleyan heritage, so grape juice was used for communion. Recently, however, I have begun to question the use of juice over wine, which would be more traditionally correct for the sacrament. Still, grapes are "fruit of the vine" whether there remains an alcohol content or not in making a drink - so wine or juice is still from grapes.

So, what say you? If you believe it should be wine or grape juice, can you please make your case for why?

Wine. Clearly it was wine. Clearly the Christians have always used wine. Clearly there is no reason to innovate.

 

[Albion]

I consider it a point of adiaphora as well.

I would note that Justin Martyr reported in the 2nd century that they cut their wine with water during their services.

so....wine, then.

Other reading I've done indicates that cutting the wine with water was the common way of taking it during meals.

Very true and widely recognized. But that still leaves wine, not juice.

 

[RDKirk]

so....wine, then.


Very true and widely recognized. But that still leaves wine, not juice.

Oh, yeah, wine for sure. Justin Martyr's comments were to Caesar specifically to counter accusations that the Christian meetings were besotted orgies.

 

[Kristos]

I consider it a point of adiaphora as well.

I would note that Justin Martyr reported in the 2nd century that they cut their wine with water during their services. Other reading I've done indicates that cutting the wine with water was the common way of taking it during meals.

Or if we take 1 Timothy 5 into consideration, maybe they were cutting their water with wine.

You don't have to go back to Justin Martyr to find this - that is the way it is still done today.

 

[Lion King]

Jesus used wine. If it does not matter to you to follow the example set by Jesus it ought to.

Jesus never used wafers too. Your point?