Wine vs. Grape Juice

[PreachersWife2004]

Awww...what a cute lil picture. I'm sure you had fun searching for it, too. Fortunately for me, I can make a point without resorting to cute little pictures.

Grape juice back then (even though it wasn't called that) is not the same as grape juice now. Using grape juice now is not the same thing as what was used back then.

And it still ignores that our Lord himself used wine. Why use something else? The only thing I can come up with is that you truly don't trust in the Lord. What makes you think you would be harmed partaking of the Lord's Supper of all things?

THAT'S what I don't get. If it ain't broke, quit trying to "fix" it.

 

[Lion King]

Granted, must or, as some would have it "grape juice" obviously did exist during the historical period in question. During the season of grape harvest, and for a very short period of time (read: hours) "grape juice" existed.

What we are saying is that unless the Last Supper took place within those specific time constraints, that no "grape juice" could possibly have been available for use. Also, if, by some special technology or Divine action, "grape juice" had been available for use, it certainly would have merited a line in the narrative specifying so.

(Yes, this is an argument from silence. But so is "Well it doesn't SAY that it was alcoholic wine.")

I think most folks are quite aware that Jesus Christ used wine at the Last Supper. Even the early church used wine as well for the LORD's supper as evidenced in the passage below:

So then, when you come together, it is not the Lord’s Supper you eat, for when you are eating, some of you go ahead with your own private suppers. As a result, one person remains hungry and another gets drunk. Don’t you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God by humiliating those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? Certainly not in this matter! 1 Corinthians 11:20-22

This is not the part I am arguing about.

Yes, Jesus Christ used wine, but where does it state in the Scriptures that only wine is suitable for the LORD's Supper?

 

[Lion King]

Awww...what a cute lil picture. I'm sure you had fun searching for it, too. Fortunately for me, I can make a point without resorting to cute little pictures.

Grape juice back then (even though it wasn't called that) is not the same as grape juice now. Using grape juice now is not the same thing as what was used back then.

What was grape juice called back then?

Grape juice is still the same as it was back then. There is absolutely no difference whatsoever. Note: I am not talking about commercial grape juices sold in stores today, but grape juice made by simply crushing ripe grapes and filtering the liquid through a sieve, until all that remains is the fresh liquid.

And it still ignores that our Lord himself used wine. Why use something else? The only thing I can come up with is that you truly don't trust in the Lord. What makes you think you would be harmed partaking of the Lord's Supper of all things?

THAT'S what I don't get. If it ain't broke, quit trying to "fix" it.

I'm not gonna go through this with you again. I've already refuted your position numerous times.

 

[SwordFall]

Grape juice would've lasted about a week in those times.

Their containers were not as good, the only way they could keep things at any measure of coolness was to put it in a cellar.

And what is traditionally in cellars?
Exactly.

The simple fact of the matter is that grape juice was hardly part of day to day drink, period. The only time one could possibly even drink grape juice was in the first few weeks of harvest- out of that rest of the entire year.

The whole subject of grape juice simply needs to be squashed. Like a grape
It shouldn't even be part of one's thought processes- it was wine through and through.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Uhhmmm, are you aware that "unpasteurized" grape juice is simply raw juice from freshly pressed grapes? Raw grape juice didn't exist back then?

Yeah riiiiiight...

Thing is, at the time of the Passover, the grape harvest was about 6 months past; so was fresh juice. Since they did not have pasteurization, nor sterile containers (used jars and skins) they must have frozen it!

 

[Lion King]

Thing is, at the time of the Passover, the grape harvest was about 6 months past; so was fresh juice. Since they did not have pasteurization, nor sterile containers (used jars and skins) they must have frozen it!

I think its most likely that Jesus drank wine at the Last Supper, though its not explicitly mentioned. However, that was not the argument.

These people are arguing that there was no such thing as grape juice in ancient Israel. According to some here, it's only a modern invention and none in the ancient times drank freshly squeezed (unfermented) juice from grapes.

 

[Elder 111]

Okay, my immediate disclaimer is that I am aware that there is a "Sacrament/Ordinance" sub-forum, but I think I will receive more responses with this post here.

The use of wine vs. grape juice for communion has, in recent times, become one of my faith stumbling blocks as I try to seek a faith home.

I have only ever been a member of two churches in my Christian walk - & both were Wesleyan oriented or shared Wesleyan heritage, so grape juice was used for communion. Recently, however, I have begun to question the use of juice over wine, which would be more traditionally correct for the sacrament. Still, grapes are "fruit of the vine" whether there remains an alcohol content or not in making a drink - so wine or juice is still from grapes.

So, what say you? If you believe it should be wine or grape juice, can you please make your case for why?

Grape juice was always used. It is God who requested His follower not to drink alcohol. Why would He then use it as a symbol of His pure, holy blood shed for us?
Jesus is sinless and all things that represented Christ was to be without blemish. Wine is blemished! The grape juice is the pure thing. Alcohol is tainted, therefore can not represent Christ's blood.

 

[freezerman2000]

How can that be if juice spoils or ferments within a short period of time?
Alcohol is a natural preservative.

 

[freezerman2000]

He asked us not to become drunkards..not to refrain from the use of it..
I know many folks who have a nightcap and do not become drunk..It is all in moderation.
You do not gulp wine at Communion,you take ONE SIP,or dip the Host into it,then partake of it..NO ONE is going to become besotted in such a manner...It is physically impossible.

 

[Cappadocious]

If you REALLY made booze as you say, then you should know that sulphites are natural by products of fermentation

Have you had organic non-sulfite added wine to see if the trace amounts set you off?

 

[PaladinValer]

Grape juice was always used. It is God who requested His follower not to drink alcohol. Why would He then use it as a symbol of His pure, holy blood shed for us?
Jesus is sinless and all things that represented Christ was to be without blemish. Wine is blemished! The grape juice is the pure thing. Alcohol is tainted, therefore can not represent Christ's blood.

Sorry; not an authentic, historic Christian belief as proven by history...nor is it Biblical....unless one subscribes to the typical pseudohistory common in heretical groups.

 

[Elder 111]

How can that be if juice spoils or ferments within a short period of time?
Alcohol is a natural preservative.

How do we keep it as pure grape juice now?

 

[Elder 111]

Sorry; not an authentic, historic Christian belief as proven by history...nor is it Biblical....unless one subscribes to the typical pseudohistory common in heretical groups.

So Jesus made alcohol for people drink after they had all the wine that was there already at the wedding feast? That sounds like a drunken party with the Lord participating.

 

[pshun2404]

Reading Deuteronomy 14 made me realize that a drink being fermented has nothing to do with what God approves or disapproves, it is about abuse and about motive. Oinos in early Greek is always actual wine (not grape juice).

Jesus is the new leaven. The kingdom of heaven is like it. Beware the old leaven.

 

[New Legacy]

What is grape juice?

You are playing games with the English language - what words we use is not of importance- to ignore the fact that at the Last Supper, wine was used.

 

[New Legacy]

Are you aware that there such a thing called "unpasteurized grape juice"?

It would have to come from modern technology.

 

[New Legacy]

Uhhmmm, are you aware that "unpasteurized" grape juice is simply raw juice from freshly pressed grapes? Raw grape juice didn't exist back then?

Yeah riiiiiight...

It existed for only a matter of hours during a particular part of the year, the opposite side of the year in which the Passover occurs in fact.

 

[New Legacy]

What was grape juice called back then?

Grape juice is still the same as it was back then. There is absolutely no difference whatsoever. Note: I am not talking about commercial grape juices sold in stores today, but grape juice made by simply crushing ripe grapes and filtering the liquid through a sieve, until all that remains is the fresh liquid.



I'm not gonna go through this with you again. I've already refuted your position numerous times.

Freshly made grape juice today has a smaller amount of yeast in it due to it being washed.

 

[New Legacy]

I think its most likely that Jesus drank wine at the Last Supper, though its not explicitly mentioned. However, that was not the argument.

These people are arguing that there was no such thing as grape juice in ancient Israel. According to some here, it's only a modern invention and none in the ancient times drank freshly squeezed (unfermented) juice from grapes.

Grape juice existed only in vineyards for a very short period of time. In fact, it would have been partially fermented from the get go. So actually - there was no 0.00% alcoholic grape juice.

 

[New Legacy]

How do we keep it as pure grape juice now?

We wash and treat the grapes to make them sterile. Then we put them through sterile processing machines, which makes sterile juice. Then we take the sterile juice and place them in perfectly sealed sterile containers. Then we heat it up to kill off the bacteria. Since life must come from life - there is no way for the grape juice to spoil.

-technically, sterile might not be the right word, but you know what I mean