Wine vs. Grape Juice

[Lion King]

Where does it say it's fine to use juice?

Jesus drank of the FRUIT OF THE VINE.

And He said to them, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many. Assuredly, I say to you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” Mark 14:24-25


As wine is made ENTIRELY from the fruit of the vine, it's acceptable.
As grape juice is made ENTIRELY from the fruit of the vine, it's acceptable.

What was in the cup before he blessed it?(written in that fashion to include the Catholic)

Wine.

 

[Albion]

Jesus drank of the FRUIT OF THE VINE.

And He said to them, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many. Assuredly, I say to you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” Mark 14:24-25


As wine is made ENTIRELY from the fruit of the vine, it's acceptable.
As grape juice is made ENTIRELY from the fruit of the vine, it's acceptable.



Wine.

Wine is not grape juice merely because they have a common origin. Ergo, it does matter which one is used. It may not be a matter of life and death, but only one is authentic, by any standard, and therefore proper.

 

[Lion King]

Wine is not grape juice merely because they have a common origin. Ergo, it does matter which one is used. It may not be a matter of life and death, but only one is authentic, by any standard, and therefore proper.

Strawman argument.

I said:

wine = Fruit of the vine.
grape juice = Fruit of the vine.

And He said to them, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many. Assuredly, I say to you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” Mark 14:24-25


Jesus said He drank of the FRUIT OF THE VINE. That means He drank something that is derived from GRAPES. Wine is derived from grapes, so is grape juice. Get it?


PS. Authentic? Proper? According to who? Where is it said in the Scriptures only wine is to be used for the LORD's Supper?

I won't hold my breath waiting for the answer to that question...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus drank of the FRUIT OF THE VINE.

Wine.

You keep telling us that.

The apostate unbelieving Jews of today however do not believe it


.

 

[RDKirk]

Sealing it up would cause it to explode. I use a one way water valve to let the CO2 escape. Only after fermentation is finished can one actually seal it and still a secondary fermentation can occur and even burst a modern bottle. I use camden to kill any remaining yeast to resolve that issue. Cleaning up that mess teaches you well.

That's why you use new wineskins for new wine--new wineskins will stretch (and aren't perfectly CO2 tight anyway). If you put new wine in an old already-stretched wineskin, then that will split.

And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.-- Mark 22

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That's why you use new wineskins for new wine--new wineskins will stretch (and aren't perfectly CO2 tight anyway).
If you put new wine in an old already-stretched wineskin, then that will split.

And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.-- Mark 22

Luke 5:
37 "And no one is casting young/neon <3501> wine into OLD vessels, if yet no surely shall be ruined the wine, the young/neon <3501> of the vessels and it shall be being poured-out and its vessel shall be perishing .
38 but Young/neon <3501> wine into NEW/kainouV <2537> vessels is to be cast and both are preserved together.
39 and no one drinking OLD immediately is willing Young, for he is saying, 'for the the OLD kind/gracious is'".
[Hebrews 8:13/Reve 19:3]

Hebrews 8:13
in the to be saying 'NEW/kainhn <2537>', He hath made OLD the first.
The yet being aged and being obsolete nigh of disappearance/a-fanismou <854>
[Luke 5:37-39/Reve 19:3]

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

.................The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins ; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate, and, with sacrifices of thanksgiving, proclaimed the imperial majesty of Titus, with every possible demonstration of joy..................

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.
Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground...........

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The Roman Catholic church, EO, the Lutherans and many others hold this view. I've been here two years and have had numerous discussions regarding John 6 with members of these churches, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

Nope, you don't. But as always, thanks for playing!

Some people were arguing that nobody drank grape juice in the ancient times because it wasn't invented yet (or whatever that means), so the term "fruit of the vine" can only mean wine and nothing else.

Therefore, only wine is to be used at the LORD's Supper.

IN BIBLICAL TIMES, FRUIT OF THE VINE ACTUALLY DID MEAN WINE!

If Jesus used wine (and we know that he did), why would you want to use something else?

 

[Lion King]

IN BIBLICAL TIMES, FRUIT OF THE VINE ACTUALLY DID MEAN WINE!

If Jesus used wine (and we know that he did), why would you want to use something else?

No, it didn't (at least not in the sense you are implying).

In biblical times, "fruit of the vine" literally meant GRAPES.

Then He began to speak to them in parables: &#8220;A man planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a place for the wine vat and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 2 Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that he might receive some of the fruit of the vineyard from the vinedressers. 3 And they took him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Again he sent them another servant, and at him they threw stones, wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully treated. 5 And again he sent another, and him they killed; and many others, beating some and killing some. 6 Therefore still having one son, his beloved, he also sent him to them last, saying, &#8216;They will respect my son.&#8217; 7 But those vinedressers said among themselves, &#8216;This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.&#8217; 8 So they took him and killed him and cast him out of the vineyard.

9 &#8220;Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vinedressers, and give the vineyard to others. Mark 12:1-9



But as always, thanks for playing!

 

[graceandpeace]

WOW!

Ok, I think it's clear where many of y'all stand, no need to keep stating your positions back & forth over & over...

I understand, at least from earlier posts, the differing view points on this subject. I'll admit, I am not dogmatic about what Christians use for the sacrament; however, I do feel inclined toward wine & am taking the matter (among others) under consideration in my church journey...

Thanks to those who responded.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

No, it didn't (at least not in the sense you are implying).

In biblical times, "fruit of the vine" literally meant GRAPES.

Then He began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a place for the wine vat and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 2 Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that he might receive some of the fruit of the vineyard from the vinedressers. 3 And they took him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Again he sent them another servant, and at him they threw stones, wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully treated. 5 And again he sent another, and him they killed; and many others, beating some and killing some. 6 Therefore still having one son, his beloved, he also sent him to them last, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7 But those vinedressers said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him and cast him out of the vineyard.

9 “Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vinedressers, and give the vineyard to others. Mark 12:1-9



But as always, thanks for playing!

I've already pointed out the word used. I can't help you any more than I already have.

It's like pointing to a horse and saying "look, it's a Mustang!"

So...why don't you take a stab at answering the question as to why, if Jesus used wine (and we know he did) you would think it would be okay to use something else.

 

[freezerman2000]

D/p

 

[freezerman2000]

Wine will last.
Unpasteurized juice will either spoil or begin to turn to wine in no time flat.
Unpasteurized grape juice is only available at harvest time..9 to 10 months into the year..
What part of the year did the first Easter fall in?

 

[New Legacy]

WOW!

Ok, I think it's clear where many of y'all stand, no need to keep stating your positions back & forth over & over...

I understand, at least from earlier posts, the differing view points on this subject. I'll admit, I am not dogmatic about what Christians use for the sacrament; however, I do feel inclined toward wine & am taking the matter (among others) under consideration in my church journey...

Thanks to those who responded.

While one can dispute whether or not you can use grape juice, it cannot be denied that it did not exist, except for only a matter of hours, until the modern day.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

While one can dispute whether or not you can use grape juice, it cannot be denied that it did not exist, except for only a matter of hours, until the modern day.

and they didn't call it grape juice, either!

 

[New Legacy]

No, it didn't (at least not in the sense you are implying).

In biblical times, "fruit of the vine" literally meant GRAPES.

Then He began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a place for the wine vat and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 2 Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that he might receive some of the fruit of the vineyard from the vinedressers. 3 And they took him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Again he sent them another servant, and at him they threw stones, wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully treated. 5 And again he sent another, and him they killed; and many others, beating some and killing some. 6 Therefore still having one son, his beloved, he also sent him to them last, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7 But those vinedressers said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him and cast him out of the vineyard.

9 “Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vinedressers, and give the vineyard to others. Mark 12:1-9



But as always, thanks for playing!

Nothing you quoted supported your argument. This passage is about the Gentiles. Vineyards produced grapes, which were squeezed and rapidly became wine.

 

[New Legacy]

Strawman argument.

I said:

wine = Fruit of the vine.
grape juice = Fruit of the vine.

And He said to them, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many. Assuredly, I say to you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” Mark 14:24-25


Jesus said He drank of the FRUIT OF THE VINE. That means He drank something that is derived from GRAPES. Wine is derived from grapes, so is grape juice. Get it?


PS. Authentic? Proper? According to who? Where is it said in the Scriptures only wine is to be used for the LORD's Supper?

I won't hold my breath waiting for the answer to that question...

Grape juice didn't exist.

 

[New Legacy]

That may indeed be correct, but there is a reason Jesus Christ used the term "fruit of the vine" instead of simply saying wine.

In both the Old and New Testaments, the juice from grapes is sometimes used to represent blood. Therefore, if you partake in any drink made from grapes, whether fermented or unfermented, you are following Christ's example.

He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes. Genesis 49:11

There was no unfermented grape juice. That passage is speaking about wine.

 

[Lion King]

I've already pointed out the word used. I can't help you any more than I already have.

It's like pointing to a horse and saying "look, it's a Mustang!"

No offence, but your methods of teaching sucks. You say something, but when asked for evidence for your numerous claims (for instance the Numbers 6:1-4 "older" translation), you never reply.

Be like Paul. Prove your worth with Scripture back up! Only then will I actually "listen" to you....

So...why don't you take a stab at answering the question as to why, if Jesus used wine (and we know he did) you would think it would be okay to use something else.

I'm not using something else. Jesus drank of the "fruit of the vine" (how many times have I gotta point that one out). Grape juice is of the "fruit of the vine".

Both wine and grape juice are of the fruit of the vine. In other words, both beverages are derived entirely from the GRAPE FRUIT.

Does that help?

 

[New Legacy]

Oh, so before this Pasteur came about, there was no such thing as grape juice? How did the Israelites make wine if grape juice wasn't invented yet?

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord, 3 he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins. 4 All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin. Numbers 6:1-4

Juice is in reference to the liquid state of vinegar and wine derived from grapes.

They didn't 'make wine from grape juice'. They squeezed grapes and that produced either vinegar or wine.

 

[New Legacy]

Sulphites.

All wine contain sulfites, even the ones produced in ancient Israel contained this preservative.

In small quantities. Modern winemakers use them in large quantities.