Wine vs. Grape Juice

[Lion King]

Grape juice didn't exist.

There was no unfermented grape juice. That passage is speaking about wine.

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord, 3 he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins. 4 All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin. Numbers 6:1-4


I totally believe you....

 

[Lion King]

In small quantities. Modern winemakers use them in large quantities.

Still harmful to my health.

 

[New Legacy]

Not everyone has access to grapes.

The answer given to me above was "communion of one kind." Everybody does have access to bread.

There is no place on earth that does not have access. Unless you are talking about expeditions that choose not to take them. Bread is no more ubiquitous than grapes.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

No offence, but your methods of teaching sucks. You say something, but when asked for evidence for your numerous claims (for instance the Numbers 6:1-4 "older" translation), you never reply.

Be like Paul. Prove your worth with Scripture back up! Only then will I actually "listen" to you....

I gave you the words used. The word that your bible translated to Fruit of the Vine meant wine in Hebrew and Greek. It never once refers to as grape juice.

I'm not using something else. Jesus drank of the "fruit of the vine" (how many times have I gotta point that one out). Grape juice is of the "fruit of the vine".

Both wine and grape juice are of the fruit of the vine. In other words, both beverages are derived entirely from the GRAPE FRUIT.

Does that help?

I'm done arguing this with you ad nauseum. Grape juice is not wine. The fruit of the vine that is spoken of in the bible translates to WINE. That is not my opinion, that is how the language works. There was no such thing as grape juice in biblical times. That is not my opinion, that is a fact. It was impossible to have grape juice.

I'm sure that God will not send you to hell for using grape juice in your communion, but for me, Jesus used wine and I see no sense in substituting something else, regardless of the reason.

 

[New Legacy]

Can you please provide the "older" translation to Numbers 6:1-4?

Can you provide Scriptural evidence to back up your claims that the grape juice mentioned in Scripture was actually wine?


Thank you.



Jesus drank of the "fruit of the vine" at the Last Supper. In other words, He drank juice from grapes- which makes perfect sense, since the juice from the grapes is said to represent blood in both the Old and New Testament.

Juice is the English translation. And that juice or liquid was vinegar or wine. There was no such thing as grape juice to them. There was no concept. English 'juice' refers to a liquid from a fruit or vegetable.

If you are arguing that grape juice was consumed you are being silly. You can play word games all you want, it comes down to this:
Squeezed grapes make juice, that juice has yeast, that yeast eat juice, that juice becomes wine - and back them, in a matter of hours.

 

[New Legacy]

What about people that do not have access to grapes/wine? Believe it or not, the entire world is not living in the luxury of first world comfort. There are indeed many places where Christians not only live in fear and are persecuted, but they do not have access to wine.

Christians took wine with them. Wine is not a luxury, it was part of life in a world before sanitary water.

Do you know why the puritans arrived where they did? They were low on beer.

 

[New Legacy]

So, out of this:


The Lord’s Supper

23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number [s]sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment. The remaining matters I will arrange when I come.


We take away this:

"...do this in remembrance of Me..." but only if you have this exact type of wine and bread...








edit to add: I guess all of those countless Christians over the centuries that had no access to wine are just out of luck then.

"Do THIS" not "Do like this with doritos and a coke"

 

[Lion King]

I gave you the words used. The word that your bible translated to Fruit of the Vine meant wine in Hebrew and Greek. It never once refers to as grape juice.

Please show this "older and TRUER" translation of Numbers 6:1-4.

I'm done arguing this with you ad nauseum. Grape juice is not wine. The fruit of the vine that is spoken of in the bible translates to WINE. That is not my opinion, that is how the language works. There was no such thing as grape juice in biblical times. That is not my opinion, that is a fact. It was impossible to have grape juice.

I'm sure that God will not send you to hell for using grape juice in your communion, but for me, Jesus used wine and I see no sense in substituting something else, regardless of the reason.

Uhmmm, again no offence but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The "fruit of the vine" as used in the Scriptures literally means GRAPES.

And at the season he sent to the farmers a servant, that he might receive from the farmers of the fruit of the vineyard. Mark 12:2

And when the season of the fruits drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, to receive his fruits. Matthew 21:34



PS. Amused @ your facts. not a single Scriptural evidence was seen on that day.

 

[New Legacy]

You do understand that grape juice is of the fruit of the vine right?

Wine (fermented grape juice) = fruit of the vine
Unfermented grape juice = fruit of the vine.

Now, where is your evidence that the Scriptures says we are only to use wine at the LORD's Supper?

Because Jesus used wine.

There are two different words because they are two different things.

 

[New Legacy]

So, grape juice will be wine, if left alone? IOW, there is natural ferment on the grape.

It becomes wine on its own.

Things rot, but humans figured out how to make things rot in a way that kept their nutrition. They found that grape juice will destroy itself in a day or two. But, if you put a lid on the container, it becomes something you can drink.

 

[Lion King]

Juice is the English translation. And that juice or liquid was vinegar or wine. There was no such thing as grape juice to them. There was no concept. English 'juice' refers to a liquid from a fruit or vegetable.

If you are arguing that grape juice was consumed you are being silly. You can play word games all you want, it comes down to this:
Squeezed grapes make juice, that juice has yeast, that yeast eat juice, that juice becomes wine - and back them, in a matter of hours.

LOL no.

You can make grape juice out of freshly squeezed grapes. As long as you consume the beverage quickly, it will not turn into wine or vinegar.

People have been doing this since ancient times, already gave you enough examples.

 

[Lion King]

Because Jesus used wine.

There are two different words because they are two different things.

Of course, wine is of the fruit of the vine, after all.

Grape juice is also of the fruit of the vine, so its permitted for the LORD's Supper.

The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it.

 

[New Legacy]

Of course, there were no refrigerators back then to keep the juice fresh. However, this doesn't change the fact that people drank juice from freshly squeezed grapes even before the time of Moses.

Maybe a vineyard owner as a means of inspection, in the fall.

But regular folks? The vineyard has to squeeze and contain the grape juice and then ship it out, within a matter of hours. Grape juice would be a weird oddity to them.

Squeeze the grapes at dawn, by the dusk that thing is BOILING with fermentation.

 

[New Legacy]

Don't make me laugh. There is nothing wrong with substituting wine for grape juice. Nothing wrong whatsoever, since both drinks are derived entirely from grapes (fruit of the vine).

Where does it say that only wine is to be used for the LORD's Supper? I've asked this question numerous times, but none have managed to give me any answer.

Do this- and substitute with other things where you wish.

 

[New Legacy]

Some people were arguing that nobody drank grape juice in the ancient times because it wasn't invented yet (or whatever that means), so the term "fruit of the vine" can only mean wine and nothing else.

Therefore, only wine is to be used at the LORD's Supper.

Wine was used. It had been six months for a product that changes in a day or two.

People make these arguments because they have been taught to hate alcohol. Alcohol is evil. Yet, God created alcohol and the human reaction to alcohol. Alcohol is evil not in itself, but for what people do.

God gave us great things for healing and health, we horribly abused them.

 

[ironsheik7]

I've never seen so many fools in my life that do not even have the common sense to understand wine is made from grapes !

Do I need to actually post a link to a video on youtube of a man making wine by dropping in a packet of yeast into a bottle of welches grape juice ? let me state this now wine is nothing more than grape juice with yeast added, then the wine sits for 4-6 weeks this is called fermentation, if you don't know what the word fermentation means then go ask your mommie little kids

 

[RDKirk]

There is no place on earth that does not have access. Unless you are talking about expeditions that choose not to take them. Bread is no more ubiquitous than grapes.

There are at least 6,000 Christians held in North Korean prisons who might disagree with you.

 

[New Legacy]

Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord, 3 he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins. 4 All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin. Numbers 6:1-4


I totally believe you....

It's always interesting when people look at words as what they mean to us today, rather than what they meant.

Juice is used in English to describe a liquid that derives from a fruit or vegetable which now implies a lack of fermentation.

The Hebrew is speaking of liquids from grapes, not 'grape juice' which implies lack of fermentation.

 

[New Legacy]

Still harmful to my health.

Small amounts found naturally are not.

 

[New Legacy]

Please show this "older and TRUER" translation of Numbers 6:1-4.

Just did.

Uhmmm, again no offence but you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. The "fruit of the vine" as used in the Scriptures literally means GRAPES.

And at the season he sent to the farmers a servant, that he might receive from the farmers of the fruit of the vineyard. Mark 12:2

And when the season of the fruits drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, to receive his fruits. Matthew 21:34



PS. Amused @ your facts. not a single Scriptural evidence was seen on that day.

They could not be speaking of something that did not exist within their minds.