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Will those standing before God in judgment even ask for salvation?

BobRyan

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"so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phil 2:10-11

The "force of truth" is such that when fully presented -- even the wicked can see when they have "no argument left" . But it does not mean that they cease to be wicked or lose their sinful nature. They just admit that they are stuck and have ended up without excuse.
 
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Romans 3 makes it clear that the sinful nature is not capable of true repentance or sorrow for sin without the supernatural help and enabling of the Holy Spirit.

In Romans 8 it is not simply that they "do not" submit to the Law of God but that they "can not". See Rom 8:4-9

God commands all men to repent. So what you say does not make any sense. God granting repentance is talking about God granting them an opportunity to repent. It is not talking about Calvinism’s version of forced repentance here. If God did that, then why would there be judgment? For if God can prevent men from going to the Judgement, then why doesn’t He force repentance upon them so as to be loving and good in not wanting to see them burn (if the decision is ultimately in God’s hands)?
 
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BobRyan

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God commands all men to repent

And He sends the Holy Spirit "to convict the World of sin and righteousness and Judgment" John 16.

And He "draws all mankind" to Himself John 12:32

So it is no wonder that given all that supernatural work of God to "enable" the very thing that they cannot do of themselves - He then "commands all men to repent".

Makes perfect sense.

God granting repentance is talking about God granting them an opportunity to repent.

And given that He has supernaturally enabled it - they do have the "opportunity".

And yet as John 1 says "He came to His own and His own received Him not" ... all those He enables - do not choose to repent. Only some do.

It is not talking about Calvinism’s version of forced repentance here.

Agreed.

If God did that, then why would there be judgment? For if God can prevent men from going to the Judgement, then why doesn’t He force repentance upon so as to be loving and good in not wanting to see them burn (if the decision is ultimately in God’s hands)?

Agreed
 
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And He sends the Holy Spirit "to convict the World of sin and righteousness and Judgment" John 16.

And He "draws all mankind" to Himself John 12:32

So it is no wonder that given all that supernatural work of God to "enable" the very thing that they cannot do of themselves - He then "commands all men to repent".

Makes perfect sense.



And given that He has supernaturally enabled it - they do have the "opportunity".

And yet as John 1 says "He came to His own and His own received Him not" ... all those He enables - do not choose to repent. Only some do.



Agreed.



Agreed

Yes, I believe in Prevenient Grace, as well. It seems we agree.

May God bless you today.
 
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Oldmantook

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The "force of truth" is such that when fully presented -- even the wicked can see when they have "no argument left" . But it does not mean that they cease to be wicked or lose their sinful nature. They just admit that they are stuck and have ended up without excuse.
Your assertion could be true except for a couple of problems. Phil 2:11 states that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. According to Rom 10:9 "that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him out from the dead, you will be saved."
So confession with the mouth is the first requirement that is met for those who end up in the Lake of Fire. But do those in the LOF also end up believing in their hearts that God raised Jesus who is the Lamb of God from the dead? If so, wouldn't they would also meet for the 2nd requirement of Rom 10:9? For that answer we must turn to Rev 14:10 "he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Jesus is present in the LOF as a testament to him being raised out from the dead. Thus those in the LOF not only confess with their tongue that Jesus is Lord but they also have no choice to believe that Jesus has been raised from the dead since it is obvious to them that Jesus is present in the LOF. Thus both of the requirements of Rom 10:9 are met by those in the LOF.
 
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Alithis

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Esau did not gamble away his salvation. It was the birth right. In Genesis 27, we see Esau begging Issac for the birth right with him being in tears.

“And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept.” (Genesis 27:38).

Now, Esau’s situation was used as an example of showing a profane person by what he did (and not because God made him that way). This is related to a person failing the grace of God in the fact that THEY allowed a root of bitterness to spring up within themselves. This kind of person no longer will have a desire to follow holiness with the Lord and make peace with all men because they allowed bitterness to take permanent root within their faith. In other words, it is talking about departing from the faith and searing your conscience. The warning to us is that we are to follow after holiness and peace with all men so that such a thing will not happen to us. It is not teaching Calvinism’s version of repentance.

Yes, repentance can only be granted by God, but the Scriptures also say that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, too.
wow way to MISS the point there .... the point is -he could not find repentance -he was profane , he had no respect or value for the things of God ,he thought he could One day brush them off as insignificant then another day receive the inheritance - nope . Paul is giving clear warning that that is NOT a road to be risked .
Be careful that no one falls short of the grace of God, so that no root of bitterness will spring up to cause trouble and defile many.See to it that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau,who sold his birthright for a single meal . For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected. He could find no ground for repentance, though he sought the blessing with tears.… _
Indeed one risks just such occurrence when they coldy disdain the grace of god and continue in their sin "knowing" that they are doing so .they deceive themselves thinking they can repent later in life -Jesus said to follow him we must die to self take up the cross and follow him .people think they can indulge themselves and then jump on salvation latter and skip the die to self part . but that would make the lord Jesus a liar .
yes he desires that all be saved - AND he has told us HOW to be his disciples with very clear concise instructing and warning .
 
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Alithis

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Agreed that Jesus spoke truth. But He also used parables. However there is no such thing as doctrine that only has "parable" as its proof.
the parable IS the teaching and the truth -the Lord JESUS is the speaking of God -do not ever insinuate that ANYTHING he said is not absolute in truth .
 
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Alithis

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Romans 3 makes it clear that the sinful nature is not capable of true repentance or sorrow for sin without the supernatural help and enabling of the Holy Spirit.

In Romans 8 it is not simply that they "do not" submit to the Law of God but that they "can not". See Rom 8:4-9
thankfully after they are baptized in the holy Spirit this is no longer the situation
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Agreed that Jesus spoke truth. But He also used parables. However there is no such thing as doctrine that only has "parable" as its proof.

the parable IS the teaching and the truth -the Lord JESUS is the speaking of God -do not ever insinuate that ANYTHING he said is not absolute in truth .

Reading my statement "carefully" I said Jesus speaks truth but also uses parables (fiction) to convey a point.
 
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BobRyan

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thankfully after they are baptized in the holy Spirit this is no longer the situation

before they are baptized in the Holy Spirit --

And before they are born-again

They are enabled to "choose"
 
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wow way to MISS the point there .... the point is -he could not find repentance -he was profane , he had no respect or value for the things of God ,he thought he could One day brush them off as insignificant then another day receive the inheritance - nope . Paul is giving clear warning that that is NOT a road to be risked .
Be careful that no one falls short of the grace of God, so that no root of bitterness will spring up to cause trouble and defile many.See to it that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau,who sold his birthright for a single meal . For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected. He could find no ground for repentance, though he sought the blessing with tears.… _
Indeed one risks just such occurrence when they coldy disdain the grace of god and continue in their sin "knowing" that they are doing so .they deceive themselves thinking they can repent later in life -Jesus said to follow him we must die to self take up the cross and follow him .people think they can indulge themselves and then jump on salvation latter and skip the die to self part . but that would make the lord Jesus a liar .
yes he desires that all be saved - AND he has told us HOW to be his disciples with very clear concise instructing and warning .

I misunderstood what you said before. I think we are in agreement.
 
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Alithis

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before they are baptized in the Holy Spirit --

And before they are born-again

They are enabled to "choose"
they are able to choose to turn to god for help -he has made that available by the death and Resurrection of Jesus -we were just not able before to be faithful in it and were without salvation even if we did it right from start to end (which none ever did save Christ alone )
 
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FatalHeart

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Very often I come across the argument that a loving God cannot send a person to hell. And while the usual reply is that people send themselves there, this fact is sometimes seen as irrelevant under the assumption that, once in hell, people will be begging for God to forgive them. But I'm not so sure that such an assumption is correct.

I feel that God must, on account of His good and loving nature and the fulfillment of scripture, forgive any and all who sincerely call upon Him to be saved. There are a myriad of scriptures in the Bible that attest to the fact that the Lord will turn no one away who calls upon Him. And because there are no qualifications attached to such scriptures, I conclude that those who will ultimately stand before God will, at no point, repent of their wickedness.

There is harmony in the scriptures - at no point should two scriptures conflict with one another. It's because of this, for example, that we know that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will never actually seek salvation, and that if one does in fact seek salvation, it is proof that said person cannot actually be guilty of committing the unpardonable sin. I believe this same line of reasoning applies to those who die in their sins, as Romans 10:13 does not say, "Whosoever should call upon the name of the Lord, while still alive, shall be saved.".

At no point in the Bible does it indicate that people in judgment will attempt to repent. In fact, the Bible teaches that in the tribulation, even after intense and ongoing suffering the likes of which causes those who suffer to wish they were dead Revelation 9:6, they still will not repent. Revelation 16:11

It's because they cannot repent. All who receive the mark of the Beast are damned. Revelation 14:9-11 There is no salvation for the same reason as when a person blasphemes the Holy Spirit: the Holy Spirit is gone, and can no longer lead them to repentance. 2 Thessalonians 2:7

Seeing as how we live before the rapture, it is hard to imagine the state of a man being so wicked and evil that he wouldn't repent no matter how great his suffering, but the truth is that, until the rapture, the Holy Spirit is in the world convicting men of sin; it is the Holy Spirit which prevents people from sliding all the way into a level of darkness precluding repentance. Once the Holy Spirit leaves this world, having been raptured along with the church, there will be nothing left to prevent the spiral of mankind into the abyss; there will be nothing left to convict mankind of sin. This is why the people of that day will refuse to repent, and no matter how much suffering and fear they endure. Again, I believe this also holds true in the age to come.

Notice how the Bible never suggests that a person in hell, or damned to hell, will attempt to repent. The rich man never repented. He merely asks for water and for his brothers to be warned. The people who come to Jesus on the day of judgment never repent. In fact, they make excuses. And on the day of judgment it is said that the people actually run from God! They want NO PART of the Lord. Revelation 20:11. The Word of God says that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Luke 13:28 The weeping is understandable, though it is not repentance. They are upset because of their own predicament. But the gnashing of teeth? This indicates intense hatred and anger, just as it did when Stephen was stoned. Acts 7:54 The people bound for hell will be sorry for themselves, but will have nothing but utter hatred and murderous contempt in the light of a glorified Jesus. Remember, not only is the Holy Spirit no longer active in these people, but at this point there is nothing good left in them at all. Matthew 13:12

So while it is sometimes hard to understand what a person could do to actually deserve being sent to such a place, remember that right now we don't see the whole picture. 1 Corinthians 13:12 You are thinking of people as they are now, as you see them, rather than what they really are, and what they will become.


I think I remember hearing that in the demonic bible, followers are encouraged to live a life of sin and just repent at the end of it, seeing as God is merciful. I think one would have to be careful not to read into something. The Bible certainly has people who are dead being preached to by Jesus so that he can be the God of the living and dead, but to say we can wait is an obvious ploy. It also says, "preached," as in, not continually. Although it could be said he would give a chance to perhaps the unborn because of this verse, due to maybe instances of justice, it does not explicitly state that and any gamble on salvation is demonic. It's the same case with those that declare "once saved always saved." Furthermore, there is a judgment for all people, even believers. Romans 2 explains this and the example in Revelation speaks of a judgment first of all actions, then an opening of the book of life. It goes on to say in Timothy that we will all stand before the judgment seat, commenting, "Therefore, we know what it means to fear the Lord." Why would this be an example of fear of God if there is no punishment for sin? See: "You will reap what you sow," and literally all of Ezekiel 18.

Remember that people will follow doctrines taught by demons. It seems to me that many of these non-explicitly stated common beliefs that cause a man to feel safe to sin coincide with what our good friends the occult teach people and not a few instances of words I have gotten from demons I've come into contact with. "If I build what I have torn down I prove that I am a lawbreaker." "I have not come to abolish the law but to uphold it." "No one who is born of God will continue to sin." The pattern is very clear. That when Jesus is actually trusted in there is repentance and that repentance turns to a life of the elimination of sin, not the celebration of it.

That being said, "It is appointed for man to die once and then face judgment." Not, "To die once and get another chance to repent." That is something that is explicitly stated. Special case obviously referring to when God left the former deeds unpunished in the day of Noah, not, because we can take and choose what we want in the book, but because the book literally allots it a special case. Although I agree with you in the idea that those without the grace of God in their lives cannot be brought to repentance, or back to it, see Hebrews (and how can one repent without the Spirit?), I do not agree with the idea that if they wanted to at the judgment they could just walk up and have Jesus write their names in the book when it was missing. Not mentioning this and having no answer to if they did is not proof of your suggestion and shouldn't be used to build doctrine just because you feel your question needs an answer. I would also be careful with how you interpret the end. None of that is explicitly stated as well and many, over arguments about it, have maligned people and created unnecessary dissensions and factions, which is sin.

Finally, I find it rather intriguing that you do not understand how someone could sin without remorse in the face of eternal damnation. The assumption is then that you yourself have never given into temptation, but it is the same thing. As Christians, I am certain most of us are aware of what God thinks of something and what He is capable of doing about it. Does that mean we live perfect lives? Does that mean we always agree with God and His actions? I am quite disturbed how easily people can live for themselves, put on a face of strong Christianity, and yet do things so simple as speed every day to work and break a whole bunch of little laws every day in how they treat people, all the while because they don't have a drinking problem, call themselves good and repentant. I make no accusations, of course, but in my honest walk with God there have been plenty of times I've disagreed with Him, and many of my years have been struggling with what He says about all types of sins.

Sin is such that it doesn't care. You love what you love, my friend. You don't all of a sudden become a different person because of what another person, no matter how Holy, declares about your actions or future. Even if you see God, you still have to choose whether you like Him or not. Even if it is clear who He is in the end, will that comfort you with who you must be for eternity? Will that restore your damned nature? Will that change the temptations of your heart? Adam sinned. He sinned knowledgeably, undeceived. It is not about what is true; it is about what is wanted. "The world created by evil desires." Salvation is about what is chosen. There are people that die for a woman, a friend, and for what is right. It is the same devotion as those that die for a lie. That is why it is called a great delusion, not a great deception. The fact is that the future, though good, will not change the past or the present, or who we are. We have to, and we do not have the strength to do so without God's grace; I dodged a bullet because Jesus Christ pushed me out of the way, not because I could suddenly see it coming.
 
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FatalHeart

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Salvation is only on earth. To then die then comes judgment. But.. Jesus said if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains. I believe SO MANY were are blind :)

"He who does not know will be beaten with few blows." He was simply stating in that verse that the Pharisees, whose sin it was to say they knew God, wouldn't have that sin if they didn't keep declaring they knew what they were talking about. It was specifically a rebuke to them. Elsewhere it shows in the Bible that even those who do not know are judged because when "their voice has gone into all the world," ignorance of God is sin. Or as Paul states elsewhere about worshiping false god's, "He had left such ignorance beforehand unpunished, but now calls all people to repent."
 
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FatalHeart

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I really doubt that God will not forgive or forget a person even in hell, didn't Christ saved the people at hell when He died before His resurrection , why not again and again. He asked forgiveness for the people that torture Him, murder Him and didn't bellieve Him as the Messiah.

The Bible does present otherwise. There is a day of favor. "How will we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?"
 
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Kostas

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The Bible does present otherwise. There is a day of favor. "How will we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?"

That's true but I doubt that God will not find a way to save as many as He can like He did with Jesus Christ.
 
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FatalHeart

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That's true but I doubt that God will not find a way to save as many as He can like He did with Jesus Christ.

I agree, He will do everything that is appropriate to save, but it's important not to give people false hopes in something that the Bible doesn't explicitly say just because you you want God to be merciful in that way. If it really is intended a one stop try for one time in life and hell is eternal, it's not a good thing to teach otherwise, but a gamble on those you council's eternity.
 
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