Will those standing before God in judgment even ask for salvation?

[Sam81]

The argument assumes that God loves those who are in Hell. He does not.

Jeremiah 17:5 - For thus says the LORD: "Do not enter the house of mourning, nor go to lament or bemoan them; for I have taken away My peace from this people," says the Lord, "even lovingkindness and mercies."

There comes a point when God removes His grace and love from a person. When He has sent a reprobate to Hell to suffer the punishments of eternal suffering in fiery torment forever, that tells me that God don't love you anymore.

Whether or not God loves the one who stands damned before Him has no bearing on what is taking place, seeing as how once a person reaches a point of no return, from then on it is actually God who hardens their hearts. God keeps repentance hidden from those who He intends to destroy. Mark 4:12 A good example of this would be Peter and Judas. Peter found repentance, whereas Judas, even after knowing his end, was given over to self-pity and suicide.

Remember that God, not man, is in complete control. It is precisely due to the fact that God won't save them that they can't repent (God removes the the conviction of the Holy Spirit).

 

[aiki]

Oh, dear. More Calvinism.

www.soteriology101.com

 

[Alithis]

Very often I come across the argument that a loving God cannot send a person to hell. And while the usual reply is that people send themselves there, this fact is sometimes seen as irrelevant under the assumption that, once in hell, people will be begging for God to forgive them. But I'm not so sure that such an assumption is correct.

I feel that God must, on account of His good and loving nature and the fulfillment of scripture, forgive any and all who sincerely call upon Him to be saved. There are a myriad of scriptures in the Bible that attest to the fact that the Lord will turn no one away who calls upon Him. And because there are no qualifications attached to such scriptures, I conclude that those who will ultimately stand before God will, at no point, repent of their wickedness.

There is harmony in the scriptures - at no point should two scriptures conflict with one another. It's because of this, for example, that we know that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will never actually seek salvation, and that if one does in fact seek salvation, it is proof that said person cannot actually be guilty of committing the unpardonable sin. I believe this same line of reasoning applies to those who die in their sins, as Romans 10:13 does not say, "Whosoever should call upon the name of the Lord, while still alive, shall be saved.".

At no point in the Bible does it indicate that people in judgment will attempt to repent. In fact, the Bible teaches that in the tribulation, even after intense and ongoing suffering the likes of which causes those who suffer to wish they were dead Revelation 9:6, they still will not repent. Revelation 16:11

It's because they cannot repent. All who receive the mark of the Beast are damned. Revelation 14:9-11 There is no salvation for the same reason as when a person blasphemes the Holy Spirit: the Holy Spirit is gone, and can no longer lead them to repentance.

Seeing as how we live before the rapture, it is hard to imagine the state of a man being so wicked and evil that he wouldn't repent no matter how great his suffering, but the truth is that, until the rapture, the Holy Spirit is in the world convicting men of sin; it is the Holy Spirit which prevents people from sliding all the way into a level of darkness precluding repentance. Once the Holy Spirit leaves this world, having been raptured along with the church, there will be nothing left to prevent the spiral of mankind into the abyss; there will be nothing left to convict mankind of sin. This is why the people of that day will refuse to repent, and no matter how much suffering and fear they endure. Again, I believe this also holds true in the age to come.

Notice how the Bible never suggests that a person in hell, or damned to hell, will attempt to repent. The rich man never repented. He merely asks for water and for his brothers to be warned. The people who come to Jesus on the day of judgment never repent. In fact, they make excuses. And on the day of judgment it is said that the people actually run from God! They want NO PART of the Lord. Revelation 20:11. The Word of God says that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Luke 13:28 The weeping is understandable, though it is not repentance. They are upset because of their own predicament. But the gnashing of teeth? This indicates intense hatred and anger, just as it did when Stephen was stoned. Acts 7:54 The people bound for hell will be sorry for themselves, but will have nothing but utter hatred and murderous contempt in the light of a glorified Jesus. Remember, not only is the Holy Spirit no longer active in these people, but at this point there is nothing good left in them at all. Matthew 13:12

So while it is sometimes hard to understand what a person could do to actually deserve being sent to such a place, remember that right now we don't see the whole picture. 1 Corinthians 13:12 You are thinking of people as they are now, as you see them, rather than what they really are, and what they will become.

Thus the rapture and the return of the lord are one and the same, and none are saved there after at all.

 

[BobRyan]

Very often I come across the argument that a loving God cannot send a person to hell. And while the usual reply is that people send themselves there, this fact is sometimes seen as irrelevant under the assumption that, once in hell, people will be begging for God to forgive them. But I'm not so sure that such an assumption is correct.

I feel that God must, on account of His good and loving nature and the fulfillment of scripture, forgive any and all who sincerely call upon Him to be saved. There are a myriad of scriptures in the Bible that attest to the fact that the Lord will turn no one away who calls upon Him. And because there are no qualifications attached to such scriptures, I conclude that those who will ultimately stand before God will, at no point, repent of their wickedness.

1. No one standing before the judgment seat of God in Revelation 20 - after the 1000 years, and at the resurrection of the wicked - has the Holy Spirit.

2. No one ever repented - in all of time - without the convicting and enabling power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 3 makes the case as does Romans 8
Rom 3
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,

“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Rom 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[BobRyan]

In Spirit all time is the same and not in sequence.
Sequential events are due to the deteriation
of creation, so Adam and Eve would not experience
death before the Fall. Time did not exist.

Time is a temporary delay of the wages of our sin.
Without it we would instantly die.

Creative writing is the source for a great deal of fiction

 

[BobRyan]

Repenting only comes after faith. You can't feel sorry for your actions if you are the ....trump.

I used to enjoy creative writing more.

 

[DamianWarS]

What also comes to mind is what was told to the rich man, and that is, that even if Lazarus was sent back to the rich man's brothers to warn them, they would not heed him.

I think Jesus was being prophetic about himself

 

[joshua 1 9]

Very often I come across the argument that a loving God cannot send a person to hell.

They do not understand that God is a God of perfect Justice. That is why Jesus went to Calvary to pay the price for us. That is just the way this universe works. People can be forgiven or they can get exactly what they deserve. This universe is very exact and precise. WE all know about cause and effect. Whatever we sow we are going to reap. Whatever seeds we sow they are going to grow and produce an abundant harvest of good or of evil.

God does a perfect work in us and we are to produce fruit. If a we do not produce fruit worthy of repentance then we can expect to be cut down and thrown into the fire. Galations 5:22 "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience,kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no Law"

The apostle Paul said, “Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable — if anything is excellent or praiseworthy — think about such things and the God of peace will be with you” (Philippians 4:8)

 

[SkyWriting]

Creative writing is the source for a great deal of fiction

And the evidence suggests that Jesus spoke no fiction.
Story tellers were a dime-a-dozen back then.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Very often I come across the argument that a loving God cannot send a person to hell. And while the usual reply is that people send themselves there, this fact is sometimes seen as irrelevant under the assumption that, once in hell, people will be begging for God to forgive them. But I'm not so sure that such an assumption is correct.

I feel that God must, on account of His good and loving nature and the fulfillment of scripture, forgive any and all who sincerely call upon Him to be saved. There are a myriad of scriptures in the Bible that attest to the fact that the Lord will turn no one away who calls upon Him. And because there are no qualifications attached to such scriptures, I conclude that those who will ultimately stand before God will, at no point, repent of their wickedness.

There is harmony in the scriptures - at no point should two scriptures conflict with one another. It's because of this, for example, that we know that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will never actually seek salvation, and that if one does in fact seek salvation, it is proof that said person cannot actually be guilty of committing the unpardonable sin. I believe this same line of reasoning applies to those who die in their sins, as Romans 10:13 does not say, "Whosoever should call upon the name of the Lord, while still alive, shall be saved.".

At no point in the Bible does it indicate that people in judgment will attempt to repent. In fact, the Bible teaches that in the tribulation, even after intense and ongoing suffering the likes of which causes those who suffer to wish they were dead Revelation 9:6, they still will not repent. Revelation 16:11

It's because they cannot repent. All who receive the mark of the Beast are damned. Revelation 14:9-11 There is no salvation for the same reason as when a person blasphemes the Holy Spirit: the Holy Spirit is gone, and can no longer lead them to repentance.

Seeing as how we live before the rapture, it is hard to imagine the state of a man being so wicked and evil that he wouldn't repent no matter how great his suffering, but the truth is that, until the rapture, the Holy Spirit is in the world convicting men of sin; it is the Holy Spirit which prevents people from sliding all the way into a level of darkness precluding repentance. Once the Holy Spirit leaves this world, having been raptured along with the church, there will be nothing left to prevent the spiral of mankind into the abyss; there will be nothing left to convict mankind of sin. This is why the people of that day will refuse to repent, and no matter how much suffering and fear they endure. Again, I believe this also holds true in the age to come.

Notice how the Bible never suggests that a person in hell, or damned to hell, will attempt to repent. The rich man never repented. He merely asks for water and for his brothers to be warned. The people who come to Jesus on the day of judgment never repent. In fact, they make excuses. And on the day of judgment it is said that the people actually run from God! They want NO PART of the Lord. Revelation 20:11. The Word of God says that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Luke 13:28 The weeping is understandable, though it is not repentance. They are upset because of their own predicament. But the gnashing of teeth? This indicates intense hatred and anger, just as it did when Stephen was stoned. Acts 7:54 The people bound for hell will be sorry for themselves, but will have nothing but utter hatred and murderous contempt in the light of a glorified Jesus. Remember, not only is the Holy Spirit no longer active in these people, but at this point there is nothing good left in them at all. Matthew 13:12

So while it is sometimes hard to understand what a person could do to actually deserve being sent to such a place, remember that right now we don't see the whole picture. 1 Corinthians 13:12 You are thinking of people as they are now, as you see them, rather than what they really are, and what they will become.

Jesus said to those who did many wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity or sin in Matthew 7.

One does not have faith after they are dead. There is no chance of repentance after a person dies and stays dead. For it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this, the judgement.

I believe there are many who would desire salvation at the judgement because some are weeping along with those who are angry by gnashing their teeth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Whether or not God loves the one who stands damned before Him has no bearing on what is taking place, seeing as how once a person reaches a point of no return, from then on it is actually God who hardens their hearts. God keeps repentance hidden from those who He intends to destroy. Mark 4:12 A good example of this would be Peter and Judas. Peter found repentance, whereas Judas, even after knowing his end, was given over to self-pity and suicide.

Remember that God, not man, is in complete control. It is precisely due to the fact that God won't save them that they can't repent (God removes the the conviction of the Holy Spirit).

What the?!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Calling upon the name or character of the Lord is not merely crying out "Lord, Lord" when desperate. And there are conditions in any case.

 

[Alithis]

What the?!

tricky to work out what he meant at first isnst it - but i think the essence of what hes saying is that the "oppurtunity to repent " is a gift from god .. (it is not automatically imputed ) but after they harden thier hearts they lose that opportunity and once it is lost - like Esua - it cannot be found again thought sought in bitter tears .

One of the scariest things i observe people do is Gamble thier slavation away for a meager lentil soup ..or a hour of fleshly delights thinking they can "repent later" - this is such self deception . the more often you refuse to repent and instead DO sin , the harder your hearts becomes , when they day comes and you are old upon your bed -you will not find in you the ability to repent to God . you will have become like Pharoah .. and Judas . this is why it is written TODAY id the day of salvation -IF you will NOT HARDEN your hearts ...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

tricky to work out what he meant at first isnst it - but i think the essence of what hes saying is that the "oppurtunity to repent " is a gift from god .. (it is not automatically imputed ) but after they harden thier hearts they lose that opportunity and once it is lost - like Esua - it cannot be found again thought sought in bitter tears .

One of the scariest things i observe people do is Gamble thier slavation away for a meager lentil soup ..or a hour of fleshly delights thinking they can "repent later" - this is such self deception . the more often you refuse to repent and instead DO sin , the harder your hearts becomes , when they day comes and you are old upon your bed -you will not find in you the ability to repent to God . you will have become like Pharoah .. and Judas . this is why it is written TODAY id the day of salvation -IF you will NOT HARDEN your hearts ...

Esau did not gamble away his salvation. It was the birth right. In Genesis 27, we see Esau begging Issac for the birth right with him being in tears.

“And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept.” (Genesis 27:38).

Now, Esau’s situation was used as an example of showing a profane person by what he did (and not because God made him that way). This is related to a person failing the grace of God in the fact that THEY allowed a root of bitterness to spring up within themselves. This kind of person no longer will have a desire to follow holiness with the Lord and make peace with all men because they allowed bitterness to take permanent root within their faith. In other words, it is talking about departing from the faith and searing your conscience. The warning to us is that we are to follow after holiness and peace with all men so that such a thing will not happen to us. It is not teaching Calvinism’s version of repentance.

Yes, repentance can only be granted by God, but the Scriptures also say that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, too.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus said to those who did many wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity or sin in Matthew 7.

One does not have faith after they are dead. There is no chance of repentance after a person dies and stays dead. For it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this, the judgement.

I believe there are many who would desire salvation at the judgement because some are weeping along with those who are angry by gnashing their teeth.

The desire at that point is likely to be avoiding hell. The convict might decide to confess and ask for leniency after he hears the verdict, but everyone knows it not cause he’s sorry he did wrong. Being sorry you’re about to receive justice is not the same as sorry you did wrong.

 

[brinny]

Repenting only comes after faith. You can't feel sorry for your actions if you are the ....trump.

You can't feel sorry for your actions if you are the ....trump.

Pardon me?

 

[Oldmantook]

Very often I come across the argument that a loving God cannot send a person to hell. And while the usual reply is that people send themselves there, this fact is sometimes seen as irrelevant under the assumption that, once in hell, people will be begging for God to forgive them. But I'm not so sure that such an assumption is correct.

I feel that God must, on account of His good and loving nature and the fulfillment of scripture, forgive any and all who sincerely call upon Him to be saved. There are a myriad of scriptures in the Bible that attest to the fact that the Lord will turn no one away who calls upon Him. And because there are no qualifications attached to such scriptures, I conclude that those who will ultimately stand before God will, at no point, repent of their wickedness.

There is harmony in the scriptures - at no point should two scriptures conflict with one another. It's because of this, for example, that we know that those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will never actually seek salvation, and that if one does in fact seek salvation, it is proof that said person cannot actually be guilty of committing the unpardonable sin. I believe this same line of reasoning applies to those who die in their sins, as Romans 10:13 does not say, "Whosoever should call upon the name of the Lord, while still alive, shall be saved.".

At no point in the Bible does it indicate that people in judgment will attempt to repent. In fact, the Bible teaches that in the tribulation, even after intense and ongoing suffering the likes of which causes those who suffer to wish they were dead Revelation 9:6, they still will not repent. Revelation 16:11

It's because they cannot repent. All who receive the mark of the Beast are damned. Revelation 14:9-11 There is no salvation for the same reason as when a person blasphemes the Holy Spirit: the Holy Spirit is gone, and can no longer lead them to repentance.

Seeing as how we live before the rapture, it is hard to imagine the state of a man being so wicked and evil that he wouldn't repent no matter how great his suffering, but the truth is that, until the rapture, the Holy Spirit is in the world convicting men of sin; it is the Holy Spirit which prevents people from sliding all the way into a level of darkness precluding repentance. Once the Holy Spirit leaves this world, having been raptured along with the church, there will be nothing left to prevent the spiral of mankind into the abyss; there will be nothing left to convict mankind of sin. This is why the people of that day will refuse to repent, and no matter how much suffering and fear they endure. Again, I believe this also holds true in the age to come.

Notice how the Bible never suggests that a person in hell, or damned to hell, will attempt to repent. The rich man never repented. He merely asks for water and for his brothers to be warned. The people who come to Jesus on the day of judgment never repent. In fact, they make excuses. And on the day of judgment it is said that the people actually run from God! They want NO PART of the Lord. Revelation 20:11. The Word of God says that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Luke 13:28 The weeping is understandable, though it is not repentance. They are upset because of their own predicament. But the gnashing of teeth? This indicates intense hatred and anger, just as it did when Stephen was stoned. Acts 7:54 The people bound for hell will be sorry for themselves, but will have nothing but utter hatred and murderous contempt in the light of a glorified Jesus. Remember, not only is the Holy Spirit no longer active in these people, but at this point there is nothing good left in them at all. Matthew 13:12

So while it is sometimes hard to understand what a person could do to actually deserve being sent to such a place, remember that right now we don't see the whole picture. 1 Corinthians 13:12 You are thinking of people as they are now, as you see them, rather than what they really are, and what they will become.

"so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phil 2:10-11

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The desire at that point is likely to be avoiding hell. The convict might decide to confess and ask for leniency after he hears the verdict, but everyone knows it not cause he’s sorry he did wrong. Being sorry you’re about to receive justice is not the same as sorry you did wrong.

I respectfully disagree, sister. I believe Judas was honestly weeping in the fact that he betrayed (did wrong with) the Lord. This means people will honestly weep in the fact that they did wrong with the Lord, too. Also, the Lake of Fire is not going to be an endless place of eternal torture in fire. It will only last for one moon to another and one Sabbath to another upon the New Earth until they are lifeless carcases.

• Isaiah 66:22-24

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."​

For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihiation):

• 2 Thessalonians 1:9

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

• Malachi 4:1-3

“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”

• 2 Peter 2:6 NHEB

"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”​

Everyone will have a chance to be with the Lord. The wicked honestly could have been saved, too. But they made their own choice in not wanting to be with God by the actions that they took while their were alive on the Earth. However, nobody is going to go to hell by mistake. God knows a person's heart and what they will do ten years down the road or one billion years down the road. He knows what a person will do or will not do; And He knows their thoughts and intentions.

 

[BobRyan]

And the evidence suggests that Jesus spoke no fiction.
Story tellers were a dime-a-dozen back then.

Agreed that Jesus spoke truth. But He also used parables. However there is no such thing as doctrine that only has "parable" as its proof.

 

[BobRyan]

Dorothy Mae said: ↑
The desire at that point is likely to be avoiding hell. The convict might decide to confess and ask for leniency after he hears the verdict, but everyone knows it not cause he’s sorry he did wrong. Being sorry you’re about to receive justice is not the same as sorry you did wrong.

I respectfully disagree, sister. I believe Judas was honestly weeping in the fact that he betrayed (did wrong with) the Lord. This means people will honestly weep in the fact that they did wrong with the Lord, too.

Romans 3 makes it clear that the sinful nature is not capable of true repentance or sorrow for sin without the supernatural help and enabling of the Holy Spirit.

In Romans 8 it is not simply that they "do not" submit to the Law of God but that they "can not". See Rom 8:4-9