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Will the Rapture and the Second Coming happen in the same event?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by rollinTHUNDER, Jan 1, 2003.

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  1. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Verse 5 is a help for verse 4.  How can this first resurrection take place after Christ's second coming, when He started the resurrection Himself 2000 years before?  This simply means that the dead unbelievers will not come back for judgment until after the millennial reign. 

    I'll paste it here again:
    1 Corr. 15: 22-23 - "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. (23)But each in his own turn:  Christ,  the firstfruits;  then,  when He comes, those who belong to Him." (NIV)

    Now for all the others: 
    1Co 15:20
    But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.(dead/ without the Holy Spirit)

    I don't know how this could be any plainer, but as for the rest of your claims of the rapture be post-trib, I'll save that for later.  I'm working on it a little now, but there is much info to gather, and I am only a one finger typer, so YIKES!!  Be patient. 
     
  2. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    Hi Ben,

    Let me explain a bit on word usage because it depends on the context those words are used. I will be brief. In Matt 24:22 it reads: And except those days be shortened, there would be no flesh saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. Now what do you think it means? Spiritual salvation? No, it simply means that no one would be alive unless those days were shortened. It's physical salvation. Another example is Acts 27:31, Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, "Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved." Is this salvation by grace or does it mean no one will die? It's physical salvation.

    There is no problem with Rom 2:5-8 or 1 Thess 5:9 as "wrath" meaning hell in it's context. However, the word "wrath." 1 Thess 1:10; Matt 3:7; Luke 3:7 does refer to the Great Tribulation or the "wrath to come." I know christians go through tribulation [John 16:33; Acts 14:22; Rom 5:3; 12:12; 1 Thess 3:4] and there is no argument with that. Moreover, Rev 6:17 speaks of "the great day of His WRATH." Rev 16:1 speaks of the seven angels to..."Go your ways and pour out the bowls of the WRATH of God." Literally God will pour his wrath upon the Earth during this time period. Jesus said in Matt 24:21, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the begining of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be. Why else is it called, "the time of Jacob's trouble" [Jer 30:7] and connected to Daniel's seventieth week [Dan 9:7].

    Mr. John

    PS apanthesis does mean meet and proceed forward. Forward to heaven which the body of Christ will reside.
     
  3. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
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    "We give thanks to God always for all of you ...bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father, knowing (brethren beloved by God) His choice of you; for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. You also became imitators ...receiving the Word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy SPirit so that you became an example to all... they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is JESUS WHO DELIVERS US FROM THE WRATH TO COME." SORRY, John, the context here is SALVATION FROM HELL---not salvation from the GREAT TRIBULATION...

    Let's look at Matt3: "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptoism, he said, 'You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit of REPENTANCE, do not suppose you can (count on being Abraham's seed), for God is able to raise up Abraham's children from these STONES. Even now the ax is laid at the tree; every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand, He will ...gather the wheat into the barn, but He will burn the chaff with UNQUENCHABLE FIRE."

    CONTEXTUALLY, WRATH = UNQUENCHABLE-FIRE. Tell me again whether you think he was talkin' about the GREAT TRIBULATION or talkin' about HELL???

    Yes the "21 judgments of Revelation" are called "bowls of wrath", etc.; but the DAY OF WRATH, is HELL (Rom2:5ff); and Jesus delivered them from idols to SALVATION, not from the GREAT TRIBULATION (which still hasn't occurred yet, thousands of years after they have DIED...)
    MEET-AND-PROCEED-FORWARD. Forward, is in the same direction. If they TURN and run AWAY with Him, that's not "proceeding FORWARD"...
    Tell me, John---if the RAPTURE has already HAPPENED (before the Tribulation), then who are the ELECT that are IN the Tribulation? Those who get saved AFTER the Rapture?

    Consider: "For faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. How shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How shall they believe in whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear withaout a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?" But if the RAPTURE is BEFORE the Tribulation, then will not all the PREACHERS already be GONE???

    ;)
     
  4. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    Hello One and All,

    Today I decided to lay this on you. Considereing the debates on the rapture (pre, mid, post), kingdom church vs. the body of Christ, and all the arguments whether we are eternally saved or able to lose it on the way, I want you all to consider what I am going to write. These are excerpt from a book I am reading. I have rephrase and paraphrased most of it.

              ********************

    The New Testament by Ben Klassen.

    The Old Testament was designed to unite the Jewish race and give them a binding creed. Its objective was to give them a united solidarity such as none have achieved before or after, and to give them purpose, direction, and a program to conquer and plunder the rest of the world.

    Early in their history the Jews realized an astounding fact of human nature. They discovered what an amazingly powerful weapon was religion, defensively and offensively, constructively and destructively. They have capitalized upon this discovery to the ultimate throughout their history.

    Judaism was designed to to unite the Jews; on the other hand, the New Testament, which was written by the Jews, was designed to do the opposite--divide, confuse and destroy the Roman Empire and gentiles. The Jews knew that they could not do it militarily but knew that through religion that the Empire would dismantle over time. Christianity is that religion that continues to divide and confuse.

    The trouble with most christians is that they never taken the time and trouble to read the New Testament. Those who read smatterings of it have not put the pieces together and understood what it is all about. While they are devoutly meandering and laboring through a labyrinth of impossible contradictions and meaningless generalities they never suspect that the whole purpose of the book is to divide, confuse and demoralize them.

    For example: The adherants of christianity are told over and over that the New Testament and it's prime spokesman, Jesus Christ, brought "Glad Tidings" to the world and bringing "Peace on Earth, Good Will to Men." On the other hand, it brought division [Luke 13:51-53] which is the crux of the New Testament. Ask your preacher about Peace on Earth and Good Will to Men and he will give you an hour of double-talk and you will never have an answer.

    We must remember that the New Testament is the basis of christianity. It was, of course, rejected by the Jews and 2,000 years later it is still rejected by them even though Jesus and the disiples were a Jewish group. How did the divisiveness of breaking up families and of the individual be accompished? By the Sermon on the Mount. In Matt 5:3, Christ says, "Blessed are poor in spirit...Blessed are the meek." So, if you want to be blessed you have to be "poor in spirit" and "meek." Don't you know that this type of person would ordinarily be considered the village idiot and the clown. We all know what "poor in spirit" means--they indicate that a person is dumb, stupid and ignorant. Now the word "meek" is not so well defined. Websters Dictionary gives three shades of meaning to the word (1) "manifesting patience and longsuffering; enduring injury without resentment; mild (2) "deficient in spirit and courage; submissive, tame" (3) "not violent or strong; gentle, moderate, weak." Then it gives the synonym--humble. And there you have the description of the type of person that is now the most desireable in the eyes of the Lord. Since we are not all born that way, i.e., dumb, stupid, ignorant, submissive, and meek. We should all, of course, try our upmost to become the village idiot, because, of course, we all want to be "blessed," don't we?

    We must always keep in mind that this is what the Jews are telling the gentiles to be. Isn't a cowed, submissive person easier to subdue and plunder, to ravish and to enslave, than a strong, bold, intelligent, courageous and aggressive individual who knows what his rights are and has the courage to defend his life, his property, his family and his country?

               ******************

    I am going to stop here since the author gets into non sequitar arguments of the New Testament. What do you think of these excerpts taken from Ben Klassen's book? Is he right and the arguments over scriptures being a Jewish ploy to divide and confuse us so they can pick our pockets and send our tax monies and military equipment to Israel to the equivilant of 14 million dollars a day? To keep us in fear of hell and to worry about the "end times" by fabricating events that mimic prophecy through the policies and actions of Western governments?

    Don't worry folks, I am a christian and under the blood who knows that Jesus is Lord.

    Mr. John
     
  5. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    I notice in Revelation when Jesus comes back that he and the armies of heaven will be on horseback. So to be rapture during this time I would have to mount a horse and be given a sword to remove the heads of those at Armegeddon. I better start taking horse riding lesson and purchase a horse and sword to take with me. ;-D
     
  6. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    The preachers are the 144,000 Jews from each tribe of Israel whose results will be salvation of a great multitude out of all nations [Rev 7:4-9].

    We will have to agree to disagree on the usage of "wrath." What I see is different from what you see. Besides I work for a living and have responsibilities that most people on this board don't have and I can't play with the computer all day 24/7.

    Mr. John
     
  7. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    That's fine. If I understand "POST", and you understand "PRE", then our agreement shall be simply to trust Him, and to stand no matter what happens (and no matter which of us turns out to be right). So that we don't have to agree completely on everything to fellowship in love and harmony...

    ;)
     
  8. Jephunneh

    Jephunneh Active Member

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    "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Cor. 15:51-52)

    "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Ths. 4:16-18)

    It is a "comfort" for Christians to have this blessed promise. It would NOT be a comfort if Christians had to endure the Great Tribulation. Our merciful Lord will call the Church out of this world BEFORE the Tribulation starts.
     
  9. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Amen John,
    You got it right bro!!  The 144,000 will evangelize the world in the tribulation, and that's why they will be devinely protected.  Their converts must give their heads.  
    Rev.14:13 - "And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed<RA> are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."&nbsp;

    Also, I don't see the word wrath as hell either.&nbsp; Wrath = anger.&nbsp; God's wrath = God's&nbsp;righteous anger, and He is Just.
     
  10. stumpsitting101

    stumpsitting101 Senior Member

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    "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Ths. 4:16-18)

    It is a "comfort" for Christians to have this blessed promise. It would NOT be a comfort if Christians had to endure the Great Tribulation. Our merciful Lord will call the Church out of this world BEFORE the Tribulation starts.

    I must agree that it is a comfort to have this blessed promise, and it will not be a comfort to have to endure "Trubulation-Great or otherwise". The context of this verse does not however indicate the "comfort" to come as a result of not having to endure Tribulation or being called out before Tribulation. The "Comfort" in this verse has to do with the "True Comfort", Jesus, Himself (not a spirit, but Himself), has not forgotten you, He will resurrect us, and we will forever be with Him. It doesn't state where this will be, only where ever He is, we will be there also. It is a comfort to know He hasn't forgotten us, although many years have passed by since this verse was recorded. This is the above mentioned "Comfort". Bless You and Love
    Ken
     
  11. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Amen Ken,
    Welcome to this board brother!! I am still trying to finish part two of this thread, and it's taking me longer than expected. Hopefully it will be finished in the next day or two. Cheers!!
     
  12. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
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    Scripture?
    "WRATH" is "HELL" in 1Thess5:9, Rom2:5ff, Matt3:7,11,12.
    QUESTION---if you believe "Christians will be RESCUED AWAY FROM the Great Tribulation", then what about those who are SAVED, DURING it?

    Let's say the Rapture happens BEFORE the Tribulation (except for the 144,000). The NEXT DAY there are 1,500,000 people saved (which of course there WOULD be if suddenly all the TRUE CHRISTIANS DISAPPEARED---all the LUKEWARM will instantly REALIZE their mistake and REPENT and become SAVED).

    What happens then to the 1,500,000 people who missed the Rapture BY ONLY A DAY???

    Which is it? Are Christians to GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION, or NOT?

    Maybeeeee... as each person gets SAVED, there's a puff of SMOKE and he or she joins Christ in HEAVEN??? :p

    ;)
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that the only thing the Bible says happens "in the twinkling of an eye" is the changing of the bodies of the living Christians into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Jesus' coming at the rapture includes much more than that. It includes first the descent of Jesus from heaven with the saints who died (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), then the sounding of the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16), then the resurrection of these saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16), then the changing of living believers into immortal bodies, and finally the gathering together of all the resurrected saints, and all those changed in the twinkling of an eye, into the clouds where Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

    Note that all Paul said was a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51 was that "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," that is, that not all Christians will have to die before being changed into their immortal bodies. The rapture and resurrection themselves weren't a mystery, for Jesus had clearly already taught both: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3); "The Son of man coming... and shall gather together his elect" (Mark 13:26-27); "That every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).

    Note that everyone in the body of Christ is in "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23); "he is the head of the body, the church" (Colossians 1:18); "his body's sake, which is the church" (Colossians 1:24); "for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Ephesians 5:30-32). Note that Christ doesn't marry part of his body, but his entire body, the church. Note that all of the verses quoted above equate the body and the church, and that no verse in the Bible distinguishes between the body and the church, or says that the church is only part of the body.

    Note that the Bible doesn't teach a future 2-part coming of Jesus.

    If Jesus could come back from heaven before the tribulation, then depart for some years back into heaven, then come back again after the tribulation, and this could all be referred to as a single "2nd coming," then there really would be no 2nd coming, for Jesus' two future comings would only be subsequent parts of his 1st coming as a babe in Bethlehem; there would only be one 3-part coming, which isn't something the Bible teaches.

    I believe that we will be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

    "The Son of man coming in the clouds...
    with a great sound of a trumpet,
    and they shall gather together his elect"
    (Matthew 24:30-31).

    "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
    with the trump of God...
    shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
    (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

    I don't believe that the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
    or two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
    or two different raptures of the church.

    Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

    Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.
    Note that the Bible doesn't refer to an "Age of Grace," but instead says "that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace" (Ephesians 2:7). I believe the covenant of grace (Hebrews 10:29) is the "everlasting covenant" (Hebrews 13:20), and the gospel of grace (Acts 20:24) is the "everlasting gospel" (Revelation 14:6). We Christians who will be in the tribulation who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) will be in his grace.

    "Grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Timothy 1:9).

    And grace will continue even after the tribulation, for at the 2nd coming Jesus "will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced" (Zechariah 12:10).

    God has always given grace: "Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD" (Genesis 6:8); "The LORD said unto Moses... thou hast found grace in my sight" (Exodus 33:17); "Found grace in the wilderness; even Israel" (Jeremiah 31:2); "Grace hath been shewed from the LORD our God" (Ezra 9:8); "He giveth grace" (Proverbs 3:34).

    Note that no scripture says that the times of the Gentiles ends before the tribulation. "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (Luke 21:24). Because Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles during the coming tribulation: "it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months" (Revelation 11:2), the times of the Gentiles can't be fulfilled before the tribulation.

    I believe Jesus and Paul preached the gospel of the kingdom:

    "Seek ye first the kingdom of God" (Matthew 6:33).

    "That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom" (1 Thessalonians 2:12).

    "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

    "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50).

    "The kingdom of God is... righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost" (Romans 14:17).

    "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom" (Colossians 1:13).

    "I [Paul] have gone preaching the kingdom of God" (Acts 20:25).

    "Paul... received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God" (Acts 28:30-31).

    "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

    "That ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God" (2 Thessalonians 1:5).

    "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

    Note that the phrase "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25) may mean the same thing as the phrase "until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (Luke 21:24), for "fulness" can refer to "the fulness of times" (Ephesians 1:10), "the fulness of the time" (Galatians 4:4).

    Note that the fulness of the Gentiles is not described as coming in before the tribulation, but right before all Israel is saved at the 2nd coming: "The fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" (Romans 11:25-26); "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced" (Zechariah 12:10); "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness... And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends" (Zechariah 13:1, 6).

    Note that we Christians can be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) without being appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), for during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation; I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

    I think it's important to make this distinction because many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming God for everything bad that happens to them in the tribulation; they're going to be saying that God is the one causing all of their suffering, when in reality it will be Satan, evil men, and natural disasters that are causing it.

    Satan is going to try to use the suffering of the tribulation to turn people -- even us Christians -- away from God, to get us to believe that God is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants mankind to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from God, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

    In the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive? "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
     
  14. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that the Bible doesn't show the judging or rewarding of any part of the church before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.

    Note that the time to reward the saints doesn't come until after the 7th trumpet has sounded (Revelation 11:15, 18); we will be judged and rewarded at the 2nd coming: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come" (1 Corinthians 4:5); "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:1); "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12).

    After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged before Armageddon: "Then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:26-27); "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me" (Psalm 50:4-5); "The Lord shall judge his people" (Hebrews 10:30).

    Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 doesn't say that Jesus himself will catch us up. Jesus will catch us up by sending his angels: "Then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect" (Mark 13:27).

    Note that the church will rule on the earth during the millennium:

    "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father... He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Revelation 2:26, 27, 29).

    "We shall reign on the earth" (Revelation 5:10).

    "They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Revelation 20:4).

    "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth" (Matthew 5:5).

    Note that no verse promises us a resurrection before the 2nd coming.

    I believe the Bible precludes that our resurrection be before the 2nd coming because it says the resurrection and changing of all Christians into their immortal bodies will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23), and that "the first resurrection" will also include all of us Christians who will die in the tribulation (Revelation 20:4-5).

    I believe the pre-trib doctrine would require that 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52 on the one hand, and Revelation 20:4-5 on the other, be referring to two different bodies of Christians regarding two different comings of Christ, thus making the one body of Christ two bodies (Ephesians 4:4-5), the 2nd coming a 3rd coming (Hebrews 9:28), the last trumpet the 9th from last (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 8:6; Matthew 24:31), and the 1st resurrection the 2nd (Revelation 20:4-6), so that the pre-trib doctrine would not be making sense of scripture.

    I don't believe the raising of the 2 witnesses is the 1st resurrection for the same reasons raisings in the past weren't the 1st resurrection. I believe the 2 witnesses are merely resuscitated back into their mortal bodies like Lazarus or those many after Christ's resurrection were raised (John 12:9-10, Matthew 27:52-53), and translated in their mortal bodies into heaven like Elijah and Enoch were taken into heaven (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24).

    I think that Revelation 6:16-17 could be the terrified hyperbole of the unsaved, that they can't actually see the face of the Father sitting on his throne in heaven (Revelation 5:7), and that the 6th seal may not actually be God's wrath. Note that those in heaven don't say God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 15:1).

    I think John could be seeing a cataclysmic event that precedes the trumpets, which may be an historically unprecedented volcanic eruption which will trigger devastating earthquakes all around the world, and which will fill the atmosphere with ash, blocking the light from the sun and making the moon appear blood red. I think this could be accompanied (possibly triggered) by a storm of large meteorites, "falling stars," which will hit the ground, and atmospheric explosions of those which don't make it to the ground.

    When they see these horrors, the unsaved will no doubt believe they're all going to die, as "seeing the face of God" means death (Exodus 33:20), and that these events are God's wrath. But God's wrath may not be come in the 6th seal, nor in the 7th, nor in the 7 trumpets. God's wrath may not be come until the final stage of the great tribulation, the 7 vials (Revelation 16), which aren't directed at believers; we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12).

    I believe the purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

    This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married in the clouds, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), we'll all descend from the clouds with Jesus (Revelation 19:11-14), Jesus will smite the nations (Revelation 19:15) gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to fight him (Revelation 19:19), he will defeat them completely (Revelation 19:20) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4), after which we will have the supper (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

    Note that a novice can get on a well-trained horse and ride for the first time with others around him without any trouble, for a well-trained horse will basically know where to move as it should on its own, especially if it's surrounded by a vast company of other well-trained horses. I don't believe the white horses that Jesus and we are seen riding in Revelation 19:11, 14 will be a wild herd of physical horses, but will be a well-trained company of spiritual horses from heaven like the ones that were seen around Elisha in 2 Kings 6:17 and that caught Elijah up into heaven in 2 Kings 2:11.

    Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says nothing regarding the timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation, for tribulation and comfort aren't opposed to each other:

    "I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation" (2 Corinthians 7:4).

    "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation" (2 Corinthians 1:3-7).

    "To comfort you concerning your faith: That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:2-4).

    In 1 Thessalonians 4:18, Paul meant we're to comfort each other that we'll see our departed loved ones again: "I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him... Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (1 Thessalonians 4:13-14, 18).

    Note that it doesn't show the 144,000 as evangelists, or show anyone repenting during the tribulation, but says that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be&nbsp;dam*ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). So it's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation are us, saved before the tribulation began. Jesus doesn't promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

    I believe giving unbelievers the idea of a 2nd chance is dangerous. After hearing the ideas of a pre-trib rapture and a 2nd chance, unbelievers could get complacent and say "Oh, when I see a pre-trib rapture happen then I'll repent and believe; I've got a 2nd chance, right?"

    I think instead we should warn them: "The Bible doesn't promise that there will be a rapture before the tribulation. And in the great tribulation God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."
     
  15. Faithful1

    Faithful1 Member

    176
    +1
    Christian
    Absolutely correct; Postrib.

    The same scriptures that speak of the 'rapture' always say it happens simultaneously with Jesus' Second Coming in Glory AND with the RESURRECTION.
    Only those trying to substitute their own philosophy would believe otherwise; and they do so by trying to rationalize away the clear Word of God. It matters not what we think personally about it because the scriptures (see below) clearly say all three events occur together:

    "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God (Second Coming in power & glory), and the dead in Christ shall rise first (resurrection); then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together WITH THEM to meet the Lord in the air....(rapture)" 1Thess.5:16

    "Immediately after the tribulation........They shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (2nd Coming); And he shall send his angels with the sound of a great trumpet, and thay shall gather his elect....(rapture) - - Jesus (Matt 24)

    "Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (rapture), at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound (2nd Coming), and the dead shall be raised incorruptible...(resurrection). 1Corin.15:51

    All three events occur at the same time; That's the way Jesus taught it ; that's the way the early Church and Apostles believed it, and that's what I am required to believe.

    Trying to seperate these events is clearly false doctrine promoted by false teachers of which Jesus clearly warned us to be aware in the last days. All the futile human reasoning and rationalizing and wanting it to be another way doesn't change what Jesus taught OR what the scriptures say!

    Faithful1
     
  16. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Very good posts. Has anyone considered that there won't actually be a "wedding feast", not in the "tables-full-of-food" sense (Rev19:9)? This verse simply mirrors the parable of Matt22; "The kingdom of God is LIKE a king who gave a wedding feast for his son..."

    It is LIKE a wedding feast. So, "Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb", is IDENTICAL to Rev20:6, "Blessed and holy is he who has a part in the First Resurrection, against these the second death has no power..."

    Because I find "POST-TRIB-RAPTURE" to be Scriptural, and because I also find "RESPONSIBLE GRACE" (that salvation CAN be forfeit) to also be Scriptural, I think the danger is stark and severe---as you said, "they will blame God and fall from their salvation."

    "But the Spirit explicitly says that in the later days many will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons..."

    This is my concern, born out of love for my brethren...
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    I personally believe that there will be a literal wedding feast on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9). Note that the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with the same coming in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory" (Isaiah 25:8); "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).
     
  18. stumpsitting101

    stumpsitting101 Senior Member

    491
    +6
    Protestant
    "So to be rapture during this time I would have to mount a horse and be given a sword to remove the heads of those at Armegeddon. I better start taking horse riding lesson and purchase a horse and sword to take with me. ;-D"

    I've read Rev.19: 11-21 several times and haven't found any sword given to the army nor have I found the army doing any warring. From this text, I have noticed Jesus, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, as having a sword and the one smiting the nations, during this time, not His army. IMO, I think the battle is the Lord's, the army will more or less be spectators. If nne does however find supporting evidence, please post. ( Help, How do ya'll highlight quotes????? PM ME)
    In a Loving Way,
    Ken
     
  19. Faithful1

    Faithful1 Member

    176
    +1
    Christian
    Well Ben (and Postrib), all I can say is the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb" will happen, and of course, the pre-tribbers won't be there since they "are no longer here after Revel. Chap.4" and the Marriage Supper doesn't happen until Revel. Chap.19 !!:D :D At least we won't have to listen to all their false doctrine while we eat dinner. :D

    Who knows what marrige supper THEY went to; probably the marriage of that OTHER GUY ! :p One thing is for sure: You don't get to go to the REAL Marriage Supper of the LAMB unless you make it all the way to Revelation Chap.19!!:D


    Faithful1

    "He that endures TO THE END shall be saved". --- Jesus
     
  20. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

    +8
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Right Ken,
    The Lord does say that vengeance is His.&nbsp; He will destroy them with the breath of His mouth, for His word is a double edged sword.

    To quote someone, it is quite simple.&nbsp; Just go to the bottom right hand corner of the box of which post you want to quote.&nbsp; And then click on quote.&nbsp; It is located next to the edit feature, that is used for editing our own posts.&nbsp; Cheers!!
     
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