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Will the Rapture and the Second Coming happen in the same event?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by rollinTHUNDER, Jan 1, 2003.

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  1. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    this thread is no longer available
     
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  2. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    Have you notice that the Bride of Christ is the Kingdom Church? It is definatley NOT the Body of Christ.

    Mr. John
     
  3. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Just call me by name lol :)
     
  4. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Some believe the bride is Jerusalem (which doesn't make make much sense), some believe it is the body of Christ (which makes more sense), but you say it is the Kingdom Church(?), please explain.
     
  5. Jephunneh

    Jephunneh Active Member

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    The Second Coming is in two parts; the catching away of the saved(rapture) meeting the Lord in the air is first, and 7 years later the 2nd advent, where the Lord Jesus Christ comes to earth to rule and reign for 1000 years.
     
  6. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello Mr. John,
    I can't say that I know all the answers, but I know the Lord has been doing a quick work in me.  I have only been writing for Him for just over a year now and I'm amazed at the awesome spiritual things He is revealing.  Things I would have never imagined before. I saw a little bit of your teaching too, and I'm glad to have your kind here brother.  It looks like you have stored up quite a bit of knowledge.  Welcome to this board!!

    Now about your question above, do you mean the New Jerusalem??  Which to me, sounds like a huge heavenly temple and the city of God.  I know Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone that the builders rejected.  And I have also noticed that for everyone who overcomes, Jesus said He would give them a white stone with a new name written on it, and known only to him who receives it, (Rev.2:17).  And also to him who overcomes, Jesus promised to make a pillar in the temple of His God, (Rev.3:12).  I believe He is taking these stones and preparing a place for us, just as He promised.
    John 14:2-4 - "In my Fathers house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.  (3)And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.  (4)You know the way to the place where I am going."

    I don't understand it all, but I have faith that it is totally awesome!!!
     
  7. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello JesusServant,
    I wonder how long it will take you to understand that I am not your enemy brother?  Even though we may disagree on some things, I am not against you.  I hope I didn't give you that idea, but if I did, please forgive me.  I'm not here to have a competition or to see who knows more.  I'm just sharing what the Lord shares with me.  Cheers!!
     
  8. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Amen to that Jephunneh!!!
     
  9. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Actually, you're helping the mid/post trib views with this thread rollin :)  Because you make it well known the necessity for even a third coming to explain the pre-trib rapture.  The second where He makes people go poof and the third where He returns to rule for 1000 years.  Or wait, I guess since He returned and visited the apostles after He went to be with the Father, as He told Mary not to touch Him because He had not ascended into heaven yet and then came back when Thomas touched his wounds, this would be a third and fourth return.  :scratch:
     
  10. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    I will get back to you JamesServant. Thanks rollinTHUNDER for th kind words. No, I would not say I have all answers or being a vast storehouse of knowledge. Rather, I have learned of the AGE OF GRACE only a few years ago. So, all of this is still new to me. Before that I clumped all the Bible together not knowing that the original intent of God was to bring salvation to the world through Israel [John 4:22]. Israel rejected the kingdom offer in the 1st century and was temporairily set aside for this dispensation of grace until the "times of the gentiles" are fulfilled. No one knows when this will occur.

    Mr. John
     
  11. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Well folks, this is only the end of part one of this thread. In a few days I will be bringing more Biblical proof to a pre-trib rapture. Be patient though, I will be very busy for the next couple of days. Next time I will shed even more light on this subject and the best is yet to come. God Is so good!!!
     
  12. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    To get back with you JesusServant: If you would read Isaiah 54:1-8 and pay close attention to verses 5 and 8 you will see that God refers to himself as Israel's husband (the entire nation of people). See also Isaiah 62:1-5.; Hosea 2:13-19, and notice verse 19. Israel is always refered as a bride. Jeremiah 3:14. Matt 9:15, to pharaphrase:can the bride mourn while the bridgroom is with them? Who is the bride? Israel! see also John 3:29 where John the Baptist refers to himself as the bridegroom's friend. Just before the Second Coming Rev 19:7 speaks of how the marriage of the Lamb is come for HIS WIFE hath made herself ready. In other words, national repentance of Israel before Armegeddon. Do you understand now? 

    I know what Revelation says about the New Jerusalem however; is the angel speaking of the city or the inhabitance? Most of the verses refer to the demensions and beauty of it. Revelation is a hard book to discipher. That is why I believe the kingdom church will understand this book and prophecies during the Great Tribulation.

    Mr. John
     
  13. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    In Revelation 20:4, is the resurrection of Tribulation Martyrs. But in verse 6, it strongly infers that ALL DEAD CHRISTIANS will be IN that resurrection. "BLessed and holy is he who has a part in the first resurrection, against these the second death has no power.

    Verses 5 and 6 label the raising of the dead, the FIRST RESURRECTION.

    In 1Thess4:15-16, it says "we who are alive and remain shall not preceed those who have died---for the DEAD in Christ shall be RAISED FIRST, and THEN we alive will be caught up to meet the Lord..."

    If the DEAD IN CHRIST are RAPTURED BEFORE the living, then why does John call the resurrection at the END of the Tribulation (Rev20:5-6), "the FIRST RESURRECTION"???

    (This is obviously not the first ACTUAL resurrection, because of Lazarus, the little girl, Tabitha, Jesus Himself---'course, all but Jesus died again; it is obviously the first MASS or GREAT resurrection...)

    How many FIRST RESURRECTIONS are there???

    What verses even HINT at a "Pre-Trib-Rapture"? The "Pre-Trib proponents" first give us Rev3:10. "I will KEEP YOU FROM the hour of trial..." In Greek, "KEEP" is "TEREO EK"---maintain or guard you THROUGH. Not "TAKE-YOU-AWAY-FROM".

    "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through Jesus Christ" 1Thess5:9 This is "THESIS-ANTITHESIS. The THESIS being, SALVATION THROUGH CHRIST. The ANTITHESIS, "wrath", is HELL. "Wrath" also means "Hell" in Rom2:5-12.

    1Thess4:16 says "The Lord will descend with a shout, voice of archangel, with the TRUMPET OF GOD". Matthew 24:29-31, says "Immediately AFTER the Tribulation, ...the sign of the Son of Man will appear ...and He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other".

    Let's read 1Corinthians 15:51: "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (we shall be changed immortal), at the LAST TRUMPET; for the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised imperishable, and this mortal shall have put on immortality."

    Why does Paul say, "LAST TRUMPET"?

    In the Tribulation are 21 judgments; 7 seals, 7 bowls, 7 trumpets. The SEVENTH TRUMPET is the END OF THE TRIBULATION. The LAST TRUMPET. Rev11:15

    &#149the FIRST RESURRECTION, specifically stated in Rev20:5-6, occurs at the END of the Tribulation, at the START of the 1000 year reign.

    &#149The DEAD IN CHRIST are raised BEFORE we are raptured. If the RAPTURE is BEFORE the Tribulation, then why (and what) does John call the FIRST RESURRECTION, after the Tribulation?

    &#149Jesus' SECOND COMING, AFTER the Tribulation in Matt24, is where He "GATHERS THE ELECT FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH".

    &#149Paul specifically calls the RAPTURE TRUMPET, the LAST TRUMPET---the 7th trumpet of the Tribulation is ALSO called the Last Trumpet. Matt24, 1Thess4, 1Cor15 all refer to a TRUMPET accompanying Christ's 2nd coming. Is there ANYTHING to dispute that all these verses refer to the SAME TRUMPET?

    In Luke 21:36, "Pray that you may have STRENGTH to escape all these things that are about to take place." (I'm aware that the King James translates, "pray that you may KATIXXIO be COUNTED WORTHY to escape", but the more reliable texts use "KATISCHUO-strength to escape"...)

    Luke 21:12ff says, "Before all these things, they will lay hands on you, persecute you, deliver you to the synagogues and prisons, bring you before kings and governors in My name. Do not prepare what to say, for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none can refute. You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, they will put some of you to death, you will be hated by all on account of My name. But not a hair on your head shall perish---by your endurance you will save your souls." Does this sound commensurate with a PRE-TRIB-RAPTURE? Sounds more like TRIBULATION WARNING, doesn't it?

    There are no verses that support a Pre-Trib-Rapture, at all. There are MANY that support "Post". If it IS "post", then all the "trumpet" verses, all the "First Resurrection" and "dead-raised-FIRST", all the verses speaking of only ONE Second Coming, they all fit together like a jigsaw puzzle with no missing pieces...
     
  14. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    I posted this on another thread, might as well post it here too...

    I would add one point that the LEFTBEHIND books seem to totally have missed---in Matt24:40-41 it says: "Two men in the field, one taken one left; two women grinding, one taken one left." Do you think the TAKEN ones are the CHRISTIANS (raptured)? Then please read Luke 17:35-37: "Two men in one bed, two women grinding, two men in the field, one taken and one left. And answering they said, 'WHERE Lord?' (WHERE will they be taken?) Jesus said, 'Where the BODY is, there will the VULTURES be gathered!' "

    OOPS! The TAKEN ones, are thown to the VULTURES!!! (or eagles)

    turns out the LEFTBEHIND are the ones to be RAPTURED!!!

    :eek:
     
  15. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    Not a bad response Ben johnson. He is a dispensational view of events. Rev 20:4 is the first resurrection (one large mass resurrection) which you are correct. This would also include the kingdom church of early Acts and Old Testament Saints [Isaiah 26:19; Dan 12;2,13; Hosea 13:14]. However, the body of Christ (Gal 3:28) was never revealed in scripture until Paul [Rom 16:25; Col 1:24-27; Eph 3:2-5,9]. The body of Christ became a full reality when Israel was set aside in unbelief [Rom 11:11,12,32] until the fullness of the gentiles be come in [Rom 11:25 see also Rom 11:24,26-29; 15:8]. If the Body of Christ was not revealed in other ages or unto the sons of men but was a "secret" then it would be natural to asume that the translation of the Body of Christ from the Earth was also part of that secret. That would also explain the last trumpet blast that would close this dispensation of grace which was also included in that secret. Paul said that "it is now revealed to his apostles and prophets by the Spirit," that is, the body of Christ. What did Paul say in 1 Thess 1:10? And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Even Jesus who delivered us from the WRATH TO COME (the Great Tribulation). (see also Matt 3:7; Luke 3:7.)  Then we are to appear before the judgement seat of Christ [2 Cor 5:10]. This is not the Great White Throne Judgement of Revelation 20:11-15.

    Also I would not confuse the last trumpet of Matt 24:29-31 with the last trumpet of 1 Thess 4:16,17 since angels will not be gathering us for this event. Rather, our place will be in heaven, not on the Earth [1 Cor 15: 51-53].

    The kingdom church is a completely different entity. Here they will have to be counted worthy to escape through their works (see also Eph 2:8,9 and ponder on the difference)and will be gathered from the four corners of the globe by the angels at the last trump and will not be transformed as we will be. They will remain human including those who are resurrected because the Davidic kingdom is an Earthly kingdom [Zech 14]. Also, I would not confuse Matt 24:31 with Matt 24:37-41; Luke 17:34-37. This not the rapture but the removal of the wicked from the Earth [Matt 13:42,42].
     
  16. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

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    Paul says last "trump" NOT trumpet. You mess so much up this way Ben.
     
  17. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    Julie, it does not matter if its trump or trumpet. I just hope I got my point across.

    Mr. John
     
  18. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    This first resurrection will include all believers including the dead old testament believers, Prophets, Kings and including every single believer who has ever lived in the age of grace.  This is known as the resurrection of the living, and it includes all tribulation believers as well.  They will all play a part in the millennial reign.  This resurrection is not only for the trib saint martyrs, if you think it is, then go ahead and prove it.  I can prove that the old testament believers will be there, not just one little select group of trib martyrs.  If you think that the trib martyrs are the first to be resurrected, then you will have a heck of a time explaining how the old testament believers got there.

    At the end of the 1000 year reign, the resurrection of the unbelievers will be for the Great White Throne Judgment, also known as the second death. This is the second resurrection, and all unbelievers of all time will judged here.

    What I am saying is that from the time from Christ' resurrection 2000 years ago until the end of the tribulation/second coming, everyone who has believed, even until the time of Christ' second coming, this is all considered the first resurrection, or the resurrection of the living. All believers of (all time) will take part in the first resurrection, and the second death will have no power over them.

    I believe the first resurrection is the resurrection of the living, or the righteous.  In it, all of God's righteous ones will be brought back.  I believe this includes everyone from the time of Adam all the way to Christ' second coming. Since Christ began this first resurrection 2000 years ago, we know it started then, but we also know that it will end at His second coming.  Everyone in their own order.  You seem to have a problem with it being in three phases, but the scriptures below prove that it will be in at least three phases, and possibly more, but at least three.

    As far as the resurrection is concerned, there is an order to be followed.  I prefer the NIV's wording compared to all other versions.  But I will also give you another explanation if you don't care for the NIV, the difference is just a little more harder to explain using the other versions.

    I'll start with the NIV - which uses a comma after the name Christ. After I give the NIV, I'll then give my interpretation for all other versions.

    1 Corr. 15: 22-23 - "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. (23)But each in his own turn:  Christ,  the firstfruits;  then,  when He comes, those who belong to Him." (NIV)

    Now for all the others: 
    1Co 15:20
    But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.(dead/ without the Holy Spirit)

    Ro 8:23
    And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

    Jas 1:18
    In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

    If Christ goes first, then the firstfruits of the living, followed by those that belong to Him at His second coming.  This makes at least three, and the possibility of four if you count the raising of the two witnesses in the tribulation, or five counting the 144,000.
     
  19. LastDazed

    LastDazed New Member

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    Known as the "resurrection of the living"?

    Known by whom exactly?

    Not by scripture thats for sure.

    I'm sure the traditions of man know it by that name, but scripture knows nothing by that name.

    But go ahead and show where scripture calls the "First resurrection" the "resurrection of the living" as you contend.
     
  20. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    "Wrath-to-come" (1Thess1:10, Matt3:7, Lk3:7) is Hell, NOT tribulation. "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ..." 1Thess5:9

    Not WRATH, but SALVATION

    Wrath is the OPPOSITE of salvation, HELL, not TRIBULATION. Jesus did NOT save us from tribulation, but PROMISED US that we will HAVE tribulation: "In this life you will HAVE TRIBULATION---but take courage, for I have overcome the world." Jn16:33

    "Because of your stubborn and unrepentant heart you areof storing up wrath for the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each man according to his deeds; to those who by pereverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but for those who are selfishly ambitious and obey unrighteousness rather than truth, wrath and indignation." Rm2:5-8

    1Cor15:52---"salpigx"; 1Thess4:16---"salpigx" (letter-for-letter the same in my Greek interlinear)

    ;) @ Julie
    We agree. The Bible presents two GREAT (mass) resurrections---1. righteous, 2. unrighteous. The PROBLEM is that the "First Resurrection" of Rev20:5-6, occurs at the END if the Tribulation!

    BTW, the Greek in 1Thess4:17 is "apantesis", which occurs 4 times in the NT (Matt25:1, 25:6, Acts28:15)---in all four cases, it means "MEET and proceed FORWARD", not "meet-and-run-away"...

    In Rev20 the FIRST RESURRECTION occurs AFTER the Tribulation. In 1Thess4 the dead are raised FIRST, and THEN we living are raptured.

    The RAPTURE ("Harpazo", forcefully siezing-away) is at the END of the Tribulation...

    :)
     
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