Will the Messianic congregation make a comeback in these last days?

rockytopva said:

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20

Please note the word mystery.

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And on what basis have you discovered what this mystery is? John gave us the answer, but you seem to disagree.

For the Laodicean church, wouldn't wealth have to be an existing condition required for the church to exist? A Laodicean church could not exist in an economically deprived area, could it? So could geography play a factor in this? what I mean is, certain parts of the world are immune to a Laodicean church from existing.

rockytopva said:

The Baptist church I grew up in were all decent. The old WW2 generation of Pentecostal Holiness church were all revived… And then my generation came along, in which the thing to do was to focus in on materialism. It is hard these days to find folks who are passionate about the things of Christ. So much lukewarmness these days have turned into coldness. A coldness that can be felt! In which I then began to suspect that these were the things pertaining to the Laodicean church age.

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That doesn’t answer the question.

rockytopva said:

What is the answer you felt John gave us?

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“The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”

rockytopva said:

The Baptist church I grew up in were all decent. The old WW2 generation of Pentecostal Holiness church were all revived… And then my generation came along, in which the thing to do was to focus in on materialism. It is hard these days to find folks who are passionate about the things of Christ. So much lukewarmness these days have turned into coldness. A coldness that can be felt! In which I then began to suspect that these were the things pertaining to the Laodicean church age.

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You know, just because we reject Pentecostal and Charismatic interpretations of the spiritual charisms either from a cessationist perspective, or from the perspective of for example Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, which is not cessationist, but interprets the gifts of the Spirit and the means of obtaining them in the present post-apostolic era in a very different way than the Charismatic and Pentecostal movement, does not mean that we are “Lukewarm.” Indeed, I would argue we have a commitment to St. Paul’s directive that all things be done decently and in order that illuminates our worship like a candle in the night. I believe I once encountered a Greek monastic elder who had the gift of speaking in tongues, in that I speak no Greek, but he was able to communicate with me in an extraordinary way, without speaking anything aloud!

And furthermore, some of the best experiences of my life have involved attending or presiding over entirely non-charismatic, solemn, traditional liturgical worship services both in my own Congregational tradition, and in other churches including Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic (especially the beautiful Traditional Latin Mass that Pope Francis is trying to kill), Eastern Catholic, Oriental Orthodox (specifically Syriac and Coptic), Lutheran (especially a then-traditionalist parish in the Church of Sweden, in Oostersund, and historically Prussian Lutheran, which is to say, the LCMS), Church of Scotland, Methodist, Moravian, and Assyrian.

The combination of the traditional hymns or chants, some of which are more than 1600 years old, and the Psalms and Biblical Canticles, whether accompanied by a splendid pipe organ or sung A Capella, the beautiful architecture, the various styles of traditional vestments, incense ( in many of the churches I just mentioned there are thick clouds of it in the nave at the end of the service - I love Christian incense, whereas I cannot tolerate the self-igniting incense used in heathen Asian religions, for example the “Joss sticks” associated with Taoism and Buddhism), and the timeless words of the liturgy itself, moves me to tears of joy. To quote the emissaries of St. Vladimir the Great, after they attended a liturgy at the Hagia Sophia, “We knew not whether we were in Heaven or Earth.” This event led to the Baptism of the Kievan Rus people (ancestors of the Russians, Belarussians, Ukrainians and Carpatho-Rusyn people) into the Christian church.

rockytopva said:

Correct... And...

These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:2

Stars can be galaxies holding millions of stars. We are all held in the right hand of Christ. I believe these are church ages that would appear in time. Which is why the Baptist church did not come alive until 1600.

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But the thing is, these churches literally existed! Nicolaitanism was a real heresy, founded by Nicolas the Deacon (ordained as one of the first seven deacons in Acts together with St. Philip Deacon and St. Stephen the Protomartyr), who fell into the delusion of Gnosticism planted by Simon Magus, and also of communal property and misogyny, which resulted in a heresy organized around men sharing their wives in common (adultery as a sacrament). Is there any wonder our Lord hated this perversion of the true faith, with evil acts of depravity committed in His name?

We can apply the scenarios faced by the ancient churches to various churches of every area, but your scheme wherein each ancient church is likened to a specific epoch of church history and even to the jewels on the Ephod of Jewish high priests is not supported by scripture. You have taken isolated verses and allegorized them, which is a very common mistake made by people associated with Word of Faith theology.

Allegorical interpretation applies only to prophetic parts of Scripture, primarily the Old Testament, and must be done according to the Alexandrian method: Christologically and typologically as an exegesis, ideally accompanied by an Antiochene Historical-Literalist approach, which is used in some places in the Old Testament that have a more literal application (for example, Leviticus, which we know was the reference used by Hebrew priests for conducting worship at the Temple), and the New Testament, as well as providing a parallel interpretation, because much of the Old Testament is both prophetic and historical, whereas the New Testament is prophetic, but as St. Peter writes, no prophecy is of any private interpretation (or an exposition of itself), and thus the meaning of much NT prophecy will not be apparent until the events prophesied are upon us. The synthesis of the two modes of interpretation starting with the Cappadocian Fathers and reaching its fullest potential in the writings of St. John of Damascus around 800 AD, represents the most reliable way of interpreting scripture, because it ensures a Christological reading of the Old Testament and a literal interpretation of the New.

rockytopva said:

I believe the third congregation was pergameon, pergos is a tower, needed in the dark ages. I believe the Orthodox arose out of these times and are unique. Would you consider yourself Orthodox?

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I am a high church Congregationalist minister who is closest to Anglo Catholicism, and thus has strong affinity for the Eastern churches, but your model fails here because there are actually two Orthodox communions, and there is the Assyrian Church of the East, and while all three are similar, there are important differences. Furthermore, it ignores the flourishing of the Eastern Orthodox Church in the 19th century with the spiritual revival in Russia initiated by Seraphim of Sarov and the Hesychast tradition, as documented by Ignatius Brianchaninov, and for that matter, the key role played by the Oriental Orthodox, specifically the Syriac Orthodox, in the Renaissance. Besides, what difference does it make?

rockytopva said:

Correct... And...

These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:2

Stars can be galaxies holding millions of stars. We are all held in the right hand of Christ. I believe these are church ages that would appear in time. Which is why the Baptist church did not come alive until 1600.

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But you are going outside of the text. Stars can be famous people in movies. It doesn’t matter what they can be. What matters is what the text says. Your “belief” isn’t what matters. So that’s why I asked what textual evidence do you have.

rockytopva said:

But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. - Daniel 12:13

I believe there will be a Laodicean lot to stand in at the end of the days.

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Based on what scripture?

rockytopva said:

I believe the third congregation was pergameon, pergos is a tower, needed in the dark ages. I believe the Orthodox arose out of these times and are unique. Would you consider yourself Orthodox?

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And again, what scripture can you provide to support this?

rockytopva said:

In reading church history I ran upon a John Flavel (c.1627–1691) who[was an EnglishPuritan Presbyterian minister and author who once said… “man's extremity is god's opportunity.” On reading into the history of the seven churches I find that man’s extremity is God’s big headache. Salvation is as easy as believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and it is amazing how quickly such salvation can be made complicated.

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But with all due respect, you aren’t answering @Hammster or myself regarding your doctrine, which is novel and innovative, and not of Patristic origin, and which furthermore seems based on an eisegetical allegorization, rather than a consistent hermeneutic of interpretation following either Alexandrian or Antiochene principles, or a mixture thereof.

@Hammster is right to ask you for the scriptural basis for it, because we are taught to do so with regards to any apparently novel doctrine and any spirit in the Epistles of the Apostle Paul.