Will Satan be allowed in Heaven?

[Ken-1122]

When I said: “Then maybe whoever translated the original Bible from Greek to English should have used a different word than love, because in English; love is not defined as doing as another person desires you to do.”

Drich0180 replied (quote) “This version has nearly 30 definitions. Most All of them dealing with Eros. But def 12 does specifically point out Agape…… Even so even if you can not recognize Agape when it is described (and not defined) it is still there.”

(reply) fair enough; rather than splitting hairs on the definition of the word “love” is it fair to say that in your opinion in order to get to Heaven you must love God AND do his will?

(quote) “Are they all so foolish to think that the paradise of heaven has anything to do with the splendor or Majesty of the place of heaven? In the true meaning of Heaven it is not a place, nor is Hell. Heaven and Hell could occupy the same half acer. What makes Heaven Heaven, and Hell Hell is your proximity/relationship you have with God.

If you or anyone else want to Goto Heaven then simply get to know God. Because The Presents of God defines Heaven, the absents of God defines Hell”

(reply) So are you saying there is not any difference comfort wise; between Heaven and Hell? That Heaven is not the beautiful paradise that everyone makes it out to be and Hell is not a place of fire and torture? That the only difference is those in Heaven can be with God who rules Heaven and everybody has to do God’s will rather than their own (kinda like a slave) and those who go to Hell can be just as comfortable but have a will of their own? (I think on an earlier post you mentioned that Satan won’t rule hell, he will just reside there) If that’s the case, Hell does sound like the better option of the two. If I am misunderstanding you; please explain

Ken

 

[drich0150]

(reply) fair enough; rather than splitting hairs on the definition of the word “love” is it fair to say that in your opinion in order to get to Heaven you must love God AND do his will?

No.
Doing God's will is of secondary importance as to the condition of one's heart, that would have that person do His will.
Doing God's will is an effect of being saved not the cause of it.

(reply) So are you saying there is not any difference comfort wise; between Heaven and Hell?

One's comfort is a non issue.

That Heaven is not the beautiful paradise that everyone makes it out to be and Hell is not a place of fire and torture?

You still miss the point I made when I asked you what if the description of Heaven and Hell were some how reversed. The surroundings of heaven and hell have little to do with that place being labeled as Heaven or Hell. The presents of God is what makes Heaven Heaven. You can be in what you think to be paradise and still be tortured. If you were made to be complete with God and are made to live without Him you will indeed be in Hell if you choose to be separated from Hm.

That the only difference is those in Heaven can be with God who rules Heaven and everybody has to do God’s will rather than their own (kinda like a slave)

Again that what this life is. You choosing to be with God in His will for eternity.

and those who go to Hell can be just as comfortable but have a will of their own? [/QUOTE

]If you think you can live in comfort with out the presents of God or any part of creation, then you are more than welcome to try.

(I think on an earlier post you mentioned that Satan won’t rule hell, he will just reside there)

If by reside you mean imprisoned then you are correct.

If that’s the case, Hell does sound like the better option of the two.

For you it maybe, that is why you have been given the choice.

If I am misunderstanding you; please explain

Other than the fact you have intentionally romanticized Hell or the separation Hell forces upon you, you are correct.

 

[Ken-1122]

When I asked: “So are you saying there is not any difference comfort wise; between Heaven and Hell? ”

Drich0150 replied: (quote) “One's comfort is a non issue.”

(reply) Maybe for you it’s a non issue, but for someone who is deciding which one they want to go to it will be a major issue. If the eternal torture of Hell fire is a threat, heck yeah I’ll do anything God tells me to do! Otherwise I’d rather have a will of my own.

Next I said: “and those who go to Hell can be just as comfortable but have a will of their own?.......If that’s the case, Hell does sound like the better option of the two.”

Drich replied (quote) “Other than the fact you have intentionally romanticized Hell or the separation Hell forces upon you, you are correct.


(reply) No romanticizing intended my friend; just calling it as I see it.

Peace
Ken

 

[cranberries]

When I asked: “So are you saying there is not any difference comfort wise; between Heaven and Hell? ”

Drich0150 replied: (quote) “One's comfort is a non issue.”

(reply) Maybe for you it’s a non issue, but for someone who is deciding which one they want to go to it will be a major issue. If the eternal torture of Hell fire is a threat, heck yeah I’ll do anything God tells me to do! Otherwise I’d rather have a will of my own.

Next I said: “and those who go to Hell can be just as comfortable but have a will of their own?.......If that’s the case, Hell does sound like the better option of the two.”

Drich replied (quote) “Other than the fact you have intentionally romanticized Hell or the separation Hell forces upon you, you are correct.


(reply) No romanticizing intended my friend; just calling it as I see it.

Peace
Ken

Jesus is the Prince of peace,there will be no peace in hell and Jesus is the living water,people will thirst and never be satisfied.
It is Jesus who gives rest to the weary and there will be no rest in hell and Jesus is the God of all comfort and there will be no comfort in hell.
Jesus forgives and washes away sin and there will be no release from guilt in hell,only constant shame and everlasting comtempt.It is Jesus who gives the fruit of the spirit,love,peace,joy ,patience and all the fruit of the Spirit and none of these will be in hell.We cannot bear fruit on our own.
Jesus is meek and lovng and forgiving,in hell there will be pride and rage.
Instead of joy there will be weeping and rage.

People who do not want Jesus to be their King,their Saviour and Lord,who want to be independant of their Creator and the source of life and God of all comfort,
and who do not want his mercy and forgiveness and righteousness,shall be allowed to make that choice.
Yet God who pleads the cause of his people says choose life that you may live.

 

[Ken-1122]

Cranberries (quote) "Jesus is the Prince of peace,there will be no peace in hell and Jesus is the living water,people will thirst and never be satisfied.........."

That's nice! Do you have a repsonse to the question at hand?

Ken

 

[cranberries]

Well I think that is the difference comfort wise between heaven and hell.

 

[aiki]

I totally understand your misunderstanding. My point is; if a person while on Earth sins on a rare average of once per year for the remaining 30 years of his life, that is only 30 instances of sin which is very little; but if he continues this when he goes to heaven, to Sin once a year for eternity is a lot of sin, and if everybody does this for all of eternity, what’s to stop someone from doing what Lucifer did and rebelling and bring 1/3 of other rare sinners with him? Well that’s a different question but that’s kinda where I was getting at.

Ah. I see. Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it.

Okay. Well, here's the thing: The Bible teaches that all of mankind is under the curse of sin. This means that each person is born with a propensity to sin; we are all inclined by nature to rebel against God, which is why no one on Earth can claim sinless perfection. In Heaven, however, this curse is gone. When a child of God enters Heaven he/she will be totally free of the power of sin, of the tendency to defy God, of the curse of sin. We will be able to choose holiness and righteousness without a struggle against an overpowering inclination to choose otherwise.

The Bible reveals that before conversion all people are "dead in trespasses and sins." They are without genuine spiritual life and, in a very real sense, are not free to choose anything other than to be ruled by their fleshly impulses and innate rebellion toward God. Without the regenerating power of God working upon us and giving to us spiritual life and the desire and ability to choose God's way and will, we will always be held firmly in the grip of sin's curse and power.

Salvation breaks the power of sin in the one who is saved. But we are not totally free of sin's downward pull until we reach Heaven. It is because we are "raised incorruptible," free of the power and presence of sin, when we are in Heaven that fears of becoming a second Satan are unnecessary.

Yes! Because all those things you mentioned only works on Christians!

But no one is born Christian. It is through the witness of Creation, the revelation of Scripture and the power of the Incarnation that people who are not Christian become Christian. Every Christian is someone who was once a non-believer but was persuaded by these things to faith in Christ and God.

The vast majority of mankind doesn’t see your concept of God in nature, they don’t believe what your scriptures say about Jesus, so a special appearance would be convincing. Wouldn’t you do the same for someone you loved?

Actually, the vast majority of people around the world hold to some concept of God. And they sometimes go so far in recognizing God in nature as to worship rocks, trees, animals, or the sun and moon.

It is because God loved us that He humbled Himself and became a man and through death bridged the gap sin had created between creature and Creator.

As far as the scriptures you mentioned, if Christian behavior was morally superior to non Christian behavior, those scriptures would make sense; but because we know that is not the case, that argument fails.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Can you explain a bit more, please? The verse I cited wasn't referring to superior Christian morality but to God's perfect moral "light."

If the transformation of becoming a Christian is God’s job; something that is impossible for us to accomplish on our own, why would God send us to hell for not becoming Christian?

He sends us to hell because we are responsible for the choices we make. The question you have asked touches on a whole complex realm of theology. The best treatment of this subject I could recommend - if you're interested - is the book entitled "Salvation and Sovereignty" by Kenneth Keathley.

As far as me trying to catch you in a contradiction; as a skeptic one thing about me that I always do is ask questions. If I am told something that doesn’t make absolute sense to me, I will keep asking questions, and keep prying until I either fully understand what I am told and it makes sense to me, or we agree to disagree. Often in the process of me attempting to understand, people get frustrated with my constant prying and become offended. It is not my intent to offend you; I am just trying to understand.

I very much appreciate what you've written here. Your words set you apart from the usual collection of atheists I encounter on this forum who have no genuine desire to understand. We may not agree but at least you want to actually know what Christianity is. What a refreshing change! Thanks!

I am not offended, by the way. I don't mind searching questions and requests for clarification. Its the naked resentment and ad hominem and semantics that I wish to avoid. So, ask away!

Selah.

 

[drich0150]

(reply) Maybe for you it’s a non issue, but for someone who is deciding which one they want to go to it will be a major issue. If the eternal torture of Hell fire is a threat, heck yeah I’ll do anything God tells me to do!

The reason it is a non issue Heaven is not about the surroundings. As i have explained over and over Heaven is being with God.

Also the problem with doing whatever God says, is you can't. That is why the determining factor on whether or not you will spend eternity with God is whether or not you have Agape for Him.

Otherwise I’d rather have a will of my own.

That's just it. you do not know what having a will of your own is. You either know the Expressed will of God or you know to be outside of this will. The only control you have is the ability to choose to be in God's will or not.

No romanticizing intended my friend; just calling it as I see it.

How can you call anything, if you are "limited" in your understanding of what you are "calling?"

Do you not understand Hell is the absents of God and all that he has created? This includes the control you have been given over your own mind. You will have free will just no way to focus or control it. Your conscience will be boiled down to just the primal essence that your are without the benefit of the gift God has given you over yourself.

Ignoring that fact that being in hell is the absents of God and or the benefits of creation is indeed romanticizing hell.

 

[Ken-1122]

Alki (quote) “Okay. Well, here's the thing: The Bible teaches that all of mankind is under the curse of sin. This means that each person is born with a propensity to sin; we are all inclined by nature to rebel against God, which is why no one on Earth can claim sinless perfection. In Heaven, however, this curse is gone. When a child of God enters Heaven he/she will be totally free of the power of sin, of the tendency to defy God, of the curse of sin. We will be able to choose holiness and righteousness without a struggle against an overpowering inclination to choose otherwise.”

(reply) Yeah I understand what you are saying, but to me that sounds totally unfair. For God to create us and design us so that we are all inclined by nature to rebel against him, and then for him to punish us for doing what he designed us to do sounds about as unjust as breaking a man’s legs then punishing him for his inability to walk correctly.
I am sure as a Christian that probably sounds perfectly fine to you but for me, I’ll just have to add that to my big list of things that doesn’t make sense about Christianity.

(quote) “But no one is born Christian. It is through the witness of Creation, the revelation of Scripture and the power of the Incarnation that people who are not Christian become Christian. Every Christian is someone who was once a non-believer but was persuaded by these things to faith in Christ and God.”

(reply) I agree at birth you don’t have any religious affiliation, but I think most people become Christian the same way I did; indoctrination. When you are born in a Christian home you are heavily influenced about that God by everybody you know and respect while your mind is still developing and by the time you become an adult, you don’t know anything else but what you were taught from birth; that’s how most people become Christian. I’ve never heard of an atheist converting to Christianity by looking at nature; have you?

(quote) “I'm not sure I follow you here. Can you explain a bit more, please? The verse I cited wasn't referring to superior Christian morality but to God's perfect moral "light.”

(reply) The verses you quoted were :John 3:19-20
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

Now it sounds to me that he is saying non-Christians don’t worship the Christian God because they prefer darkness over light, that their behavior is evil, and their evil would be exposed by the light of the Christian God

(quote) “I am not offended, by the way. I don't mind searching questions and requests for clarification. Its the naked resentment and ad hominem and semantics that I wish to avoid. So, ask away!”

(reply) Thank-you; and I shall

Next when I said: “No romanticizing intended my friend; just calling it as I see it.

Drich0150 replied(quote) “How can you call anything, if you are "limited" in your understanding of what you are "calling?"

Do you not understand Hell is the absents of God and all that he has created? This includes the control you have been given over your own mind. You will have free will just no way to focus or control it. Your conscience will be boiled down to just the primal essence that your are without the benefit of the gift God has given you over yourself.

Ignoring that fact that being in hell is the absents of God and or the benefits of creation is indeed romanticizing hell

(reply) Okay now I’m really confused! Hell is now the absence of God AND all that he has created? So he created Satan; so Satan won’t be in Hell now? He created all the fallen angels and demons so they won’t be there either? Wait… didn’t he also create Hell? Didn’t he also create me? Now I’m totally lost bro; please explain.

Peace
Ken

 

[drich0150]

(reply) Okay now I’m really confused! Hell is now the absence of God AND all that he has created? So he created Satan; so Satan won’t be in Hell now? He created all the fallen angels and demons so they won’t be there either? Wait… didn’t he also create Hell? Didn’t he also create me? Now I’m totally lost bro; please explain.

Peace
Ken

What makes you, you? What separates us from each other? After physically (plus or minus a few traits) we are basically the same are we not?
It is our consciousness right? The gift of self awareness is indeed apart of creation, for where would you be if not for this gift. There are those who live among us who have varying degrees of this gift. This proves our sanity is indeed a gift and not a right. Your consciousness makes you, you. I would also hazard a guess it also make Satan Satan, and so on and so fourth..

When one enters Hell you enter knowing full well who you are and what is going on, but as the gates of Heaven close one is reduced down to the most basic and primal instincts. Fear/terror, Self preservation, pain. Because once the Gates of Heaven close so extinguishes the light of creation, and you become apart of the darkness.


(On you confusion over Hell)
Now I'm confused
:/
What day did God say He created Hell?

Why would you assume God Created Hell if there is no biblical account of it?

Hell is described as the Void or the Pit, or the Great expanse. God call creation out of the void. This means what God created (creation) and the void have been separated. Because all that God created in is indeed apart of "Creation" that would make the Void or Hell the lack of creation.

Hmmm... How could you ever have confused yourself so completely?? :\

You must be referring to Dante's version of Hell, where Hell is Satan's domain and he rules there like an anti-God.

Do you have any scripture to back up the medieval doctrine you are confusing yourself with? Or do you simply go along with all medieval wisdom you may have heard despite what has been learned over the centuries?

If this is the case i would like to introduce you to the wonderful (modern)world of medicine. No more Leeches!!!

Are we done? or do we continue trying to one up each other?

 

[aiki]

Yeah I understand what you are saying, but to me that sounds totally unfair. For God to create us and design us so that we are all inclined by nature to rebel against him, and then for him to punish us for doing what he designed us to do sounds about as unjust as breaking a man’s legs then punishing him for his inability to walk correctly.

If that were a correct description of the facts, I'd agree with you! Fortunately, its not. When God made all of Creation there was no sin in it. This was true of the first two humans as well; they were without sin initially. It was by their choice to disobey God that sin entered the world and cursed all of humanity. Happily, God has provided a remedy for this condition in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ. No one today has to live at the mercy of the power of sin.

I am sure as a Christian that probably sounds perfectly fine to you but for me, I’ll just have to add that to my big list of things that doesn’t make sense about Christianity.

Again, if things were as you characterize them, you'd have good grounds to wonder, but, thankfully, they are not.

I agree at birth you don’t have any religious affiliation, but I think most people become Christian the same way I did; indoctrination.

It seems to me that all people are indoctrinated into their way of thinking and seeing the world. We all have various influences and experiences that shape us into the people we are and provoke us to think as we do. Parents, culture, friends, teachers, media - they are all sources of indoctrination.

When you are born in a Christian home you are heavily influenced about that God by everybody you know and respect while your mind is still developing and by the time you become an adult, you don’t know anything else but what you were taught from birth;

Do you really believe this? I think you may be just a bit hyperbolic here. Every Christian person I know who has any degree of maturity in their faith has gone through a serious season of questioning and doubt about what they believe. I know I did. I think this time of questioning is vital to establishing a Christian in their faith, however. It seems God does not want coat-tail Christians and He will allow doubt and a trial of faith to cause each of His children to adopt their faith in Him for themselves.

I think there are enough people who claim to have been raised in a Christian home and yet reject their faith as adults to show that your above assertion is untrue. The reverse is also true, mind you. I know several people who grew up in non-Christian families who became followers of Christ as adults. It seems childhood "indoctrination" is not as powerful as you believe it is.

that’s how most people become Christian. I’ve never heard of an atheist converting to Christianity by looking at nature; have you?

Actually, I have. Antony Flew, a notorious and outspoken atheist for most of his adult life, became a deist simply out of response to the incredible complexity and engineering evident in biochemsity and the human genome. You can read of his reversal of belief here:

Review There is a God by Antony Flew

Selah.

 

[Ken-1122]

Drich0150 (quote) What makes you, you? What separates us from each other? After physically (plus or minus a few traits) we are basically the same are we not?
It is our consciousness right? The gift of self awareness is indeed apart of creation, for where would you be if not for this gift. There are those who live among us who have varying degrees of this gift. This proves our sanity is indeed a gift and not a right. Your consciousness makes you, you. I would also hazard a guess it also make Satan Satan, and so on and so fourth..
When one enters Hell you enter knowing full well who you are and what is going on, but as the gates of Heaven close one is reduced down to the most basic and primal instincts. Fear/terror, Self preservation, pain. Because once the Gates of Heaven close so extinguishes the light of creation, and you become apart of the darkness”

(reply) Well I must admit; you definitely have a different version of Hell than most Christians have. I will bet you will be hard pressed to find another Christian who will describe hell exactly as you do.

(quote) “What day did God say He created Hell? Why would you assume God Created Hell if there is no biblical account of it?”

(reply) What day did he create Hell? I dunno; the same day he created the Angels I guess! I’m not the one who believes in God or Hell; I just assumed that because you are Christian and most Christians believe God created everything that exists, that you would believe he created Hell. Obviously I was wrong. Perhaps you can give me a list of things that God did not create so I can know what you believe will be in Hell.

Alki (quote) “When God made all of Creation there was no sin in it. This was true of the first two humans as well; they were without sin initially. It was by their choice to disobey God that sin entered the world and cursed all of humanity.”

(reply) That doesn’t sound fair either! 2 people a million years ago made a mistake and now all of humanity is cursed because of their mistake. To deliberately design it that way is wrong in my book.
Next when I said:
“When you are born in a Christian home you are heavily influenced about that God by everybody you know and respect while your mind is still developing and by the time you become an adult, you don’t know anything else but what you were taught from birth;”

He replied (quote) “Do you really believe this? I think you may be just a bit hyperbolic here. Every Christian person I know who has any degree of maturity in their faith has gone through a serious season of questioning and doubt about what they believe”

(reply) Oh I am sure many question their faith; I know I did and I continued to question it until I eventually moved away from my faith and became a skeptic.

(quote) “I think there are enough people who claim to have been raised in a Christian home and yet reject their faith as adults to show that your above assertion is untrue. The reverse is also true, mind you. I know several people who grew up in non-Christian families who became followers of Christ as adults. It seems childhood "indoctrination" is not as powerful as you believe it is.”

(reply) I don’t think it is a coincidence that most Muslims grow up in Muslim homes, most Christians grow up in Christian homes, most Hindu’s grow up in Hindu homes etc. do you? If not why you suppose that is?
Next when I said: “” I’ve never heard of an atheist converting to Christianity by looking at nature; have you?

He replied (quote) Actually, I have. Antony Flew, a notorious and outspoken atheist for most of his adult life, became a deist simply out of response to the incredible complexity and engineering evident in biochemsity and the human genome

(reply) I don’t know who Antony Flew is, but I noticed you said he became a “deist” rather than a Christian, which was the point I was making. However assuming he did convert to Christianity, I suspect he is the exception rather than the rule


K

 

[drich0150]

(reply) Well I must admit; you definitely have a different version of Hell than most Christians have. I will bet you will be hard pressed to find another Christian who will describe hell exactly as you do.

Again, different than who Dante, and those who believe in his depiction of Hell? If you did any research on the subject you will find those who believe in the medieval depiction of Hell are quickly becoming the minority. Why? Because the bible simple does not support the Hell painted by those believers to the extent they would have one believe.

(reply) What day did he create Hell? I dunno; the same day he created the Angels I guess!

How about this, show me where the bible say God even created Hell.

I’m not the one who believes in God or Hell; I just assumed that because you are Christian and most Christians believe God created everything that exists, that you would believe he created Hell. Obviously I was wrong. Perhaps you can give me a list of things that God did not create so I can know what you believe will be in Hell.

As the bible describes it. Hell is the void or great emptiness. Hell is the complete lack of anything. It is the blank slate in which All of creation was spoken into existence from. Hell is the absents of God. It is what He left behind when everything else was created.

From nothingness you were called into existence, and in your second death it is to the nothingness that you will return.

If you wish to see Hell for yourself ask God to show it to you, and keep asking till you get what you want. Just keep in mind the cost of the general admission to that place, because the admission may not be waved in all cases.

 

[Ken-1122]

When I said: “Well I must admit; you definitely have a different version of Hell than most Christians have. I will bet you will be hard pressed to find another Christian who will describe hell exactly as you do.”

Drich0150 replied (quote) “Again, different than who Dante, and those who believe in his depiction of Hell? If you did any research on the subject you will find those who believe in the medieval depiction of Hell are quickly becoming the minority. Why? Because the bible simple does not support the Hell painted by those believers to the extent they would have one believe.”

(reply) Actually Dante’s description of Hell probably came from Revelations 20:14-15 which says everybody in Hell will be cast into the lake of fire”

(quote) “How about this, show me where the bible say God even created Hell.”

(reply) Revelations mentions the Lake of Fire; I think that is what everybody is talking about when they mention Hell

(quote) “As the bible describes it. Hell is the void or great emptiness. Hell is the complete lack of anything. It is the blank slate in which All of creation was spoken into existence from. Hell is the absents of God. It is what He left behind when everything else was created.
From nothingness you were called into existence, and in your second death it is to the nothingness that you will return.”

(reply) Do you believe everyone in Hell will be cast into the lake of fire as mentioned in Revelations?

(quote)” If you wish to see Hell for yourself ask God to show it to you, and keep asking till you get what you want. Just keep in mind the cost of the general admission to that place, because the admission may not be waved in all cases.”

(reply) Thanks; but no- thanks. I did my share of trying to communicate with God when I was Christian; I know better now.

Peace
Ken

 

[drich0150]

(reply) Actually Dante’s description of Hell probably came from Revelations 20:14-15 which says everybody in Hell will be cast into the lake of fire”

Not even close. two verses do not describe the depths of the nine circles of Hell.

(quote) “How about this, show me where the bible say God even created Hell.”

(reply) Revelations mentions the Lake of Fire; I think that is what everybody is talking about when they mention Hell

A mention of Hell is not the same as :
Gen 1:
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

Can you not find where God creates or call Hell into existence? Why do you think that is?

(

reply) Do you believe everyone in Hell will be cast into the lake of fire as mentioned in Revelations?

I believe that the "lake of fire" is a symbolic description that paints the emotional terror and torment that one would experience if they were indeed thrown in or completely consumed by physical fire. I believe Hell to be much much worse than fire. Fire consumes it prey until all the fuel is used up. The "burning" found in hell never ceases when your existence is consumed by the void.

Do you think you would be able to maintain your sanity through such intense emotional distress for eternity?

(reply) Thanks; but no- thanks. I did my share of trying to communicate with God when I was Christian; I know better now.
Then why are you "Exploring Christianity?"

 

[aiki]

“When God made all of Creation there was no sin in it. This was true of the first two humans as well; they were without sin initially. It was by their choice to disobey God that sin entered the world and cursed all of humanity.”

(reply) That doesn’t sound fair either! 2 people a million years ago made a mistake and now all of humanity is cursed because of their mistake. To deliberately design it that way is wrong in my book.

Fair? Hmmm...Well, is it fair that the Law of Gravity causes injury and death to so many people? Do you protest God's unfairness for making this physical law? Is God unfair for not making humans able to live in water and on land like amphibians? Many people around the world die every year from drowning. Perhaps God should have made us with gills. Really there are thousands of things that order and shape the physical world in which we live that can and sometimes do cause us harm: weather, changing seasons, shifting tectonic plates, solar radiation, disease, and so on. But these are simply the realities of human existence on planet Earth. None of these things are unfair; they just are. And this is the case spiritually, too. Just as God has ordained the Law of Gravity, He has also ordained the Law of Sin and Death. You jump from a high place without a safe means of transporting yourself to the ground and you will die. You choose to disobey God and sin and death result. That we suffer the consequences today of Adam and Eve's sin is simply the unfortunate consequence of their disobedience. They broke God's Law of Sin and Death and brought all humanity under the yoke of Sin and Death.

Of course, as I have pointed out, God has gone to great lengths to counter the effects of Adam and Eve's rebellious choice. God has made a way for all people to live free of the power of Sin. I don't therefore see how God is being unfair. He has been very kind in offering us a way of salvation.

I don’t think it is a coincidence that most Muslims grow up in Muslim homes, most Christians grow up in Christian homes, most Hindu’s grow up in Hindu homes etc. do you? If not why you suppose that is?

Certainly, there is often a direct correlation between faith and culture. I wasn't denying this. I was suggesting that early childhood indoctrination does not guarantee a certain adult perspective. You appear to be an example of this yourself. It is just false to assert without qualification that the reason a person believes a particular thing is simply and solely because he or she was raised to do so. There are millions of examples around the world that defy such a statement.

However assuming he did convert to Christianity, I suspect he is the exception rather than the rule

How many exceptions are required exactly before the rule no longer exists? I can think of other atheists-turned-Christian: Lee Strobel, Josh MacDowell, Alistair McGrath, to name a few.

Selah.

 

[Ken-1122]

Drich0150 (quote) “Can you not find where God creates or call Hell into existence? Why do you think that is?”

(reply) Probably the same reason I can’t find which day he created or called Angeles into existence.

(quote)” I believe that the "lake of fire" is a symbolic description that paints the emotional terror and torment that one would experience if they were indeed thrown in or completely consumed by physical fire”

(reply) So how do you decipher symbolic descriptions in the bible from that which is real? Was Noah’s ark real? What about the tower of babel. Were Adam and Eve real? What about Jonah being swallowed by the fish? Are these things real? Or just symbolic descriptions and stories designed to make a point? What about God; is he real???
Next when I said: “Thanks; but no- thanks. I did my share of trying to communicate with God when I was Christian; I know better now.”

Drich replied (quote) “Then why are you "Exploring Christianity?”

(reply) Communicating with PEOPLE! I mean really; no offence intended, but if I actually had the ability to communicate with God, do you really think I would be on line here wasting my time talking to you guys? (LOL)
Next when I said: “2 people a million years ago made a mistake and now all of humanity is cursed because of their mistake. To deliberately design it that way is wrong in my book.”

Alki replied (quote)” Well, is it fair that the Law of Gravity causes injury and death to so many people? Do you protest God's unfairness for making this physical law? Is God unfair for not making humans able to live in water and on land like amphibians?”

(reply) Tell you what; when God starts sending people to Hell for being subject to the laws of gravity, and the inability to live in water, then yes I will call those things unfair. until then; I'm afraid your argument fails.

(quote) “Certainly, there is often a direct correlation between faith and culture. I wasn't denying this. I was suggesting that early childhood indoctrination does not guarantee a certain adult perspective. You appear to be an example of this yourself. It is just false to assert without qualification that the reason a person believes a particular thing is simply and solely because he or she was raised to do so. There are millions of examples around the world that defy such a statement.”

(reply) I agree! But IMO those millions of examples are usually the exception rather than the rule. What I was objecting to was when you said people become Christian by the witness of creation and the power of incarnation. IMO it is more like the power of indoctrination.

(quote) “How many exceptions are required exactly before the rule no longer exists? I can think of other atheists-turned-Christian: Lee Strobel, Josh MacDowell, Alistair McGrath, to name a few.”

(reply) Did they become Christian by simply looking at nature? Or by being persuaded by Christians. And what about the other guy you mentioned; did he become Christian? Or was he simply a deist; because my point was I never heard of an atheist converting to CHRISTIANITY (not deism) by simply looking at nature

ken

 

[Tim Myers]

"Will Satan be allowed in Heaven?"

Well.....first, let me ask, where do you think he is now??.....

 

[Ken-1122]

I guess it depends upon who you ask. I don't have an opinion on the issue.

K

 

[drich0150]

(quote) Probably the same reason I can’t find which day he created or called Angeles into existence.

Genesis 2:1 Tells us that by the sixth day all of the things in Heaven and on earth have been created. This includes "angels."

(reply)

So how do you decipher symbolic descriptions in the bible from that which is real?

You follow the context of the passage. Hell can not be what we know to be physical fire because by it's nature fire consumes fuel to stay burning. We are told the "flames" of Hell do not stop burning.

I personally know to "decipher this symbolic description," because like i suggested to you I asked God to show me, almost on a dare, and He did.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7474493/ post number 6 is what I saw.

Was Noah’s ark real? What about the tower of babel. Were Adam and Eve real? What about Jonah being swallowed by the fish? Are these things real? Or just symbolic descriptions and stories designed to make a point? What about God; is he real???

What in any of these descriptions makes a person question the validity of any of these stories?

Communicating with PEOPLE! I mean really; no offense intended, but if I actually had the ability to communicate with God, do you really think I would be on line here wasting my time talking to you guys? (LOL)

-

Why would you want to communicate with God?

Any and all communication you have done to this point with any of us is to express a desire to judge God and hold Him and all that He has done to your personal standard.

With that in mind, Why do you think God wants to communicate with you?

Is this the reason you seem so angry with Him?