Will Satan be allowed in Heaven?

[aiki]

Tell you what; when God starts sending people to Hell for being subject to the laws of gravity, and the inability to live in water, then yes I will call those things unfair. until then; I'm afraid your argument fails.

You seem to be carefully ignoring my point about God providing a way for all people to escape hell. He has gone much, much further in countering the harmful effects of the Law of Sin and Death upon us than He has the Law of Gravity! And He did so precisely for the reason you point to above: None of us can help but sin (though we can usually avoid drowning or falling from great heights if we're careful).

I agree! But IMO those millions of examples are usually the exception rather than the rule.

I don't think a rule can have millions of exceptions to it and still be a rule. The exceptions cease to be exceptional when there are millions of them.

What I was objecting to was when you said people become Christian by the witness of creation and the power of incarnation. IMO it is more like the power of indoctrination.

I said people can observe the existence of God in what He has made, but this doesn't mean they will recognize Him as Jehovah-God of Christianity. A more specific knowledge of God requires a more specific revelation, which He has given in His Word, the Bible and in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ. And this tri-partite revelation has been converting people around the world in various cultures and societies to faith in Christ for centuries.

Certainly, culture plays its part in how our worldview is formed, but it is not an irreversible or incontrovertible force in maintaining that worldview. And as I also noted, indoctrination occurs about many things - not just religion. One cannot claim that indoctrination is the tactic of the religious only. Every other worldview, secular or religious, relies in some measure upon indoctrination.

Did they become Christian by simply looking at nature?

I don't think I ever said that one could come to faith in Christ simply by looking at nature. As I remarked above, and in earlier posts, there is a necessary three-part revelation of God that consists of the Creation, the Incarnation of Christ, and the Bible. Together these three revelations of God can bring one to faith in Him.

Or by being persuaded by Christians.

Are you suggesting that being persuaded by a Christian about the truth of their faith is somehow wrong or inappropriate?

And what about the other guy you mentioned; did he become Christian? Or was he simply a deist;

Actually, I gave you a link that can thoroughly inform you of who Antony Flew was and why he recanted his atheism. Check it out.

because my point was I never heard of an atheist converting to CHRISTIANITY (not deism) by simply looking at nature

Neither have I, which is why I have never asserted such a thing.

Selah.

 

[Ken-1122]

Drich0150 (quote) “Hell can not be what we know to be physical fire because by it's nature fire consumes fuel to stay burning. We are told the "flames" of Hell do not stop burning.

I personally know to "decipher this symbolic description," because like i suggested to you I asked God to show me, almost on a dare, and He did.”

(reply) fair enough. I realize there are about as many different Christian opinions out there as there are Christians. Some do believe hell is an actual place, some don’t; and obviously you don’t; and I ain’t gonna try to take that away from you. Just for the record, I don’t believe hell is an actual place either; for different reasons of course.

(quote) “Why would you want to communicate with God?”

(reply) Hypothetically if God did exist; I’d want to communicate with him for the same reason you would.

(quote) “Any and all communication you have done to this point with any of us is to express a desire to judge God and hold Him and all that He has done to your personal standard.”

(reply) Just calling it the way I see it that’s all.

(quote) “With that in mind, Why do you think God wants to communicate with you?”

(reply) If God did exist I doubt he would want to communicate with me; otherwise I believe he would have done so a long time ago.

(quote) “Is this the reason you seem so angry with Him?”

(reply) I’m just a skeptic who lacks belief in your idea of God. You shouldn’t confuse that with anger.

Alki (quote) “You seem to be carefully ignoring my point about God providing a way for all people to escape hell.”

(reply)True I did leave out “the plan of salvation” because I didn’t think the plan should have been necessary to begin with.

(quote) “I don't think a rule can have millions of exceptions to it and still be a rule. The exceptions cease to be exceptional when there are millions of them”

(reply) a million compared to several billion IMO is the exception; not the rule.

(quote) “I said people can observe the existence of God in what He has made, but this doesn't mean they will recognize Him as Jehovah-God of Christianity.”

(reply) I can agree with that; no objection from me!

(quote) “Certainly, culture plays its part in how our worldview is formed, but it is not an irreversible or incontrovertible force in maintaining that worldview. And as I also noted, indoctrination occurs about many things - not just religion.”

(reply) I never claimed that to be the case!

(quote) “One cannot claim that indoctrination is the tactic of the religious only.”

(reply) I never made such a claim; you’ve obviously misunderstood me. I think we agree more than we disagree on this particular exchange

Ken

 

[drich0150]

Drich0150
(reply) fair enough. I realize there are about as many different Christian opinions out there as there are Christians. Some do believe hell is an actual place, some don’t; and obviously you don’t; and I ain’t gonna try to take that away from you. Just for the record, I don’t believe hell is an actual place either; for different reasons of course.

No, I firmly believe in Hell. It is just not a place that can be placed in a "circle" and explained so easily or completely.

(reply) Hypothetically if God did exist; I’d want to communicate with him for the same reason you would.

Because you consider your self a slave of Christ, and all you want to hear is "Well done good and faithful servant?" So (in this life) you seek direction and wisdom to full fill what you believe to be your life's calling?

(reply) Just calling it the way I see it that’s all.

Says a blind man.

(reply) If God did exist I doubt he would want to communicate with me; otherwise I believe he would have done so a long time ago.

Pride in the way you "see" and "call" things is why God has never communicated with you.

(reply) I’m just a skeptic who lacks belief in your idea of God. You shouldn’t confuse that with anger.

Your responses to some of my answers in the past have indeed gone well past skepticism. Perhaps I am not the only one confused by your responses.

 

[Ken-1122]

On my original post I made the point that sin was allowed to enter the Garden of Eden and asked will sin be allowed in Heaven. The reason I asked this question is because to me it seems whatever reason one can give to justify sin allowed in the Garden, the same case can be made as to why sin should be allowed in Heaven; or whatever reason one can give that sin should not be allowed in heaven, the same can be used to make the case that sin should have not have been allowed in the Garden in the first place.

Obviously we’ve gone waaay past that question and into others, but when I looked over some of your previous posts, I can’t find where you actually answered that question.
Maybe I missed it and if so would you mind giving your thoughts on this issue again, or if you didn’t answer the original question, would you mind sharing your thoughts on the matter.

Ken

 

[Emmy]

Dear Ken-1122. When Satan came the first time, he was trying to lure Adam and Eve into his net. Since God banished Adam and Eve ( our proto-types) and all who followed Adam and Eve, we " Mankind" had moved farther and farther away from God. In time Jesus came, our Saviour, who died that we might live, Jesus reconciled us to God, our Heavenly Father who loves us, and wants us back again. God is Love, Jesus died out of Love for us, and God wants us to learn to love, selflessly, and no strings attached, Ken. We are on Earth to learn to become as God wants us to be, His loving and caring Children/sons and daughters. Heaven is where we came from, where Love rules, and Love is at home. As for Satan, we all know that Satan runs away from God and His Love, Satan abhors and detests the very sight or image of Love. No Ken, there is absolutely no chance that Satan will ever come near where Love is at home. Jesus is waiting for us to return to where we came from, Jesus is the Way and Jesus will lead us home. The Bible keeps telling us to " Repent " to change our selfish and unloving character INTO: Loving God with all our hearts, with all our souls and with all our minds, AND: love our neighbour as we love ourselves. God will see our serious efforts to do so, and God will approve and bless us. God will know that we follow His Commandments of Love, and God will know that we do it out of love For God and our neighbour. I say this with love, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Ken-1122]

Emmy (quote) "When Satan came the first time, he was trying to lure Adam and Eve into his net."
　
(reply) Why do you suppose God allowed Satan access to Adam and Eve if he knew Satan was up to no good?

Ken

 

[drich0150]

On my original post I made the point that sin was allowed to enter the Garden of Eden and asked will sin be allowed in Heaven. The reason I asked this question is because to me it seems whatever reason one can give to justify sin allowed in the Garden, the same case can be made as to why sin should be allowed in Heaven; or whatever reason one can give that sin should not be allowed in heaven, the same can be used to make the case that sin should have not have been allowed in the Garden in the first place.

Obviously we’ve gone waaay past that question and into others, but when I looked over some of your previous posts, I can’t find where you actually answered that question.

I answered that question in the very first post, by defining sin and it purpose for sin in this life.

Maybe I missed it and if so would you mind giving your thoughts on this issue again, or if you didn’t answer the original question, would you mind sharing your thoughts on the matter.

Sin is anything not in the Expressed will of God.

Evil is a malicious intent to commit sin.

Not all sin is evil but all evil is sin.

We have been given the ability to sin so that we may Choose where we want to spend eternity. It is God's expressed will that all choose to be with Him, but with a true Choice not all in turn choose to be with God.

This Choice is known as free will. Free will is not tied to nor does it break the idea of a destiny. Free Will is simply the ability to sin, and that ability is put to the ultimate question. Where will you choose to spend eternity?

So with that in mind, God gave man the choice to even go down this road in the taking and eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Remember Sin is not evil, it is a choice.

That is why sin was allowed into the garden. Man chose to let it in. God gave man the ability to choose.

 

[Ken-1122]

Drich0150 (quote) "Sin is anything not in the Expressed will of God.......We have been given the ability to sin so that we may Choose where we want to spend eternity. It is God's expressed will that all choose to be with Him, but with a true Choice not all in turn choose to be with God."
　
(reply) Just because a person sins; doesn't mean they don't want to be with God! What about those people who want to be with God but because of sin they find God's expressed will difficult to follow thus because of their personal weaknesses they sin?

Seems to me a true choice would be to allow them to remain sinless; then give them the choice to be with God or not.


Ken

 

[drich0150]

Drich0150
(reply) Just because a person sins; doesn't mean they don't want to be with God! What about those people who want to be with God but because of sin they find God's expressed will difficult to follow thus because of their personal weaknesses they sin?

For this very reason Jesus Christ came and paid our sin debt. Taking on the mantel of a "christian" does not make one sinless.

Seems to me a true choice would be to allow them to remain sinless; then give them the choice to be with God or not.

I know some may think differently, but this is how we are born. The bible tells us we are born with a sin nature, not in sin.

(relevant verses and dialog here:What is the sin nature?)
which means we are born with the ability to be outside of God's expressed will. It is only though this separation and return, that true choice is exercised. Choice is not about eternal life with God found through a default setting.

We are given Choice so that we may choose to love God. Because after all if you love something you let it go,(Not just leave the cage unlocked) it is upon the return (or the journey) that true love is established for both parties. We would never know true love if we did not have to seek it out.

Do you know the story of the prodigal Son?
This is an excellent example of God's plan in giving us freedom and choice. I also believe this story also highlights why He gave us this choice to begin with.

 

[Ken-1122]

When I said: "(reply) Just because a person sins; doesn't mean they don't want to be with God! What about those people who want to be with God but because of sin they find God's expressed will difficult to follow thus because of their personal weaknesses they sin?"
　
Drich0150 said (quote) "For this very reason Jesus Christ came and paid our sin debt. Taking on the mantel of a "christian" does not make one sinless."
　
(reply) I get what you are saying; but the reason it doesn't make sense to me is because Christ wouldn't have had to pay our sin debts had God protected his loved ones from sin from the start. Adam and Eve could have had just as much free will, just as much choice, just as much freedom had God kept Satan out of the Garden and not made it so easy for them to sin. Then if they did happen to sin on their own without cajoling from Satan, God could have simply showed them the error of their ways and forgiven them, and allowed their children and future generations to be born sinless and without the nature/desire to sin.
Maybe what happened makes sense to you but as for me, it doesn't.
　
(quote) "I know some may think differently, but this is how we are born. The bible tells us we are born with a sin nature, not in sin......which means we are born with the ability to be outside of God's expressed will. It is only though this separation and return, that true choice is exercised.
　
(reply) But if this "separation and return" choice is not going to be done in Heaven, why is it necessary for the few moments we are here on Earth.
　
(quote) "We are given Choice so that we may choose to love God. Because after all if you love something you let it go,(Not just leave the cage unlocked) it is upon the return (or the journey) that true love is established for both parties. We would never know true love if we did not have to seek it out."
　
(reply) That only works if the one you love is aware of your existence. During the time Jesus walked the Earth, there were plenty of good people who lived outside the Middle East who were not Jewish who never even heard of your God. what about those who lived in what we now call the far East, most of Africa, or the Americas? These people had their own God and had no reason to assume their God was fake and yours was real. What kind of chance did those people have? What chance did their children and children's children have?
Again; I just can't make sense of this.

Ken

 

[drich0150]

　

(reply) I get what you are saying; but the reason it doesn't make sense to me is because Christ wouldn't have had to pay our sin debts had God protected his loved ones from sin from the start.

This is how creation started.
this was what God originally wanted for us. However given the choice "we" chose differently.

Adam and Eve could have had just as much free will, just as much choice, just as much freedom had God kept Satan out of the Garden and not made it so easy for them to sin.

you are looking at sin as something other than the result of choice.
There are only two positions or two options for us to Choose from. What is in God's expressed will and what is not. Anything not in the expressed will of God is what is not is known as sin. If God gave them choice then the only other option for them outside of God's expressed will is indeed sin.

Then if they did happen to sin on their own without cajoling from Satan, God could have simply showed them the error of their ways and forgiven them, and allowed their children and future generations to be born sinless and without the nature/desire to sin.
Maybe what happened makes sense to you but as for me, it doesn't.

It seem it doesn't make any sense because you are not working from biblical principles. You are working from your own. To me this does not make any sense to me. It's like wanting to work on your car but instead of using the proper maintenance manual you make your own and then complain because you can't make sense anything. If you want to know how something works you can not simply make your own rule book based off what you currently know.
　

(reply) But if this "separation and return" choice is not going to be done in Heaven, why is it necessary for the few moments we are here on Earth.

Because here we have been allowed the allusion to hide ourself from God to the point we can openly be, who we truly are. That way we can not deny out true nature to ourselves on the day of our judgment.
　

(reply) That only works if the one you love is aware of your existence.

We have been told all are aware of His existence. Perhaps this is why all races seek a deity to worship.

During the time Jesus walked the Earth, there were plenty of good people who lived outside the Middle East who were not Jewish who never even heard of your God. what about those who lived in what we now call the far East, most of Africa, or the Americas?

I think we talked about this already. Hebrews 4:12 says we will be judged most fairly and completely. This will include our exposure to the truth and what we did or would have done with it.

These people had their own God and had no reason to assume their God was fake and yours was real. What kind of chance did those people have? What chance did their children and children's children have?

If The most qualified righteous being in existence can not be trusted by you to fairly and righteously judge the condition and attitudes of the heart, then who would you suggest to have that responsibility?

Again; I just can't make sense of this.

If we were all limited by the constraints you have placed on yourself, no one would be able to make sense of God either. If you truly wish to have the answers to the questions you have been asking then perhaps it would be better to put down your current understandings, and try and adopt a scriptural one.

 

[Ken-1122]

drich0150 (quote) "you are looking at sin as something other than the result of choice.
There are only two positions or two options for us to Choose from. What is in God's expressed will and what is not. Anything not in the expressed will of God is what is not is known as sin. If God gave them choice then the only other option for them outside of God's expressed will is indeed sin."
　
(reply) You can't be serious!! Let me ask you a few personal quesions; was it within God's will when you ate "Cornflakes" for breakfast instead of Cheerios? Did you makesure it was inside God's will when you chose to wear black shoes instead of the brown ones? Do you have to consort with God when they ask you "paper or plastic" at the grocery store? I will bet you make a million choices everyday that are neither inside or outside of your God's will. Maybe I am misunderstanding you; if so please explain.
　
(quote) "It seem it doesn't make any sense because you are not working from biblical principles. You are working from your own."
　
(reply) My principles are the only thing I have to work with. I can't relate to biblial principles; that's why I'm talking to you.
　
(quote) "It's like wanting to work on your car but instead of using the proper maintenance manual you make your own and then complain because you can't make sense anything. If you want to know how something works you can not simply make your own rule book based off what you currently know."
　
(reply) actually it's more like wanting to work on my car but the maintence manual says to get my gun and start shooting at the engine and me complaining the manual doesn't make sense.
Next when I said: "But if this "separation and return" choice is not going to be done in Heaven, why is it necessary for the few moments we are here on Earth."
　
Drich (quote) "Because here we have been allowed the allusion to hide ourself from God to the point we can openly be, who we truly are. That way we can not deny out true nature to ourselves on the day of our judgment."
　
(reply) And if that is not necessary in Heaven, why is it necessary now?
　
(quote) "If The most qualified righteous being in existence can not be trusted by you to fairly and righteously judge the condition and attitudes of the heart, then who would you suggest to have that responsibility?"
　
(reply) That's my complaint; many of the decisions and choices the bible claims he made don't sound righteous or qualified.
　
(quote) "If we were all limited by the constraints you have placed on yourself, no one would be able to make sense of God either. If you truly wish to have the answers to the questions you have been asking then perhaps it would be better to put down your current understandings, and try and adopt a scriptural one."
　
(reply) Belief and understanding is not something I can choose. I am no more able to choose to believe what the scriptures say than you are able to choose to believe in Peter Pan. For me, belief happens after reason and logic demands it; never before. If it sounds unreasonable, if it sounds illogical, I am unable to believe it even if I tried.
Maybe your ability to believe these things has something to do with "faith" which is something that I never use and couldn't if I wanted to.

Also I must say; I appreciate the answers and explanations that you have given; my friend! Even though much of it doesn't make sense to me, I think you have given some of the best explanations I've recieved on this fourm; and you've done so without getting angry and hostile. I just wanted to thank-you for that.
　
Peace
Ken

 

[razeontherock]

drich0150 (quote) "you are looking at sin as something other than the result of choice.
There are only two positions or two options for us to Choose from. What is in God's expressed will and what is not. Anything not in the expressed will of God is what is not is known as sin. If God gave them choice then the only other option for them outside of God's expressed will is indeed sin."
　
(reply) You can't be serious!!

Yup, serious.

Let me ask you a few personal quesions; was it within God's will when you ate "Cornflakes" for breakfast instead of Cheerios? Did you makesure it was inside God's will when you chose to wear black shoes instead of the brown ones? Do you have to consort with God when they ask you "paper or plastic" at the grocery store? I will bet you make a million choices everyday that are neither inside or outside of your God's will. Maybe I am misunderstanding you; if so please explain.

None of these things connect to either the tree of life, nor of the knowledge of good and evil. Rather, look at why we're here:

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it."

All the things you ask about fall expressly within that.

(reply) And if that is not necessary in Heaven, why is it necessary now?

This keeps coming up. The 2 are different.

 

[drich0150]

　
(reply) You can't be serious!! Let me ask you a few personal questions; was it within God's will when you ate "Cornflakes" for breakfast instead of Cheerios? Did you make sure it was inside God's will when you chose to wear black shoes instead of the brown ones? Do you have to consort with God when they ask you "paper or plastic" at the grocery store? I will bet you make a million choices everyday that are neither inside or outside of your God's will. Maybe I am misunderstanding you; if so please explain.

　
You are confusing God Expressed Will, with God's Will. God's Expressed will is basically the Moral Law of God. (ten commandment kinda of stuff)
This has nothing to do with corn flakes or any other of the trivial things of life.

(reply) My principles are the only thing I have to work with. I can't relate to biblical principles; that's why I'm talking to you.

The only thing I am doing is breaking down and explaining the biblical principles (the best way I know how.) You should look at these principles as absolutes, and were you are as a need, or journey to get where the bible teaches if you truly want a chance of speaking/hearing God.

I get not everyone can pick up the bible and understand it right away. The reason is a simple one. they tend to hold what they "know to be true" over the absolute truth found in the bible. When they come across a conflict they default with what they think to be true. which only inspires more confusion. Rather than redefining their truth to match the truth found in the bible.

　
(reply) actually it's more like wanting to work on my car but the maintenance manual says to get my gun and start shooting at the engine and me complaining the manual doesn't make sense.

Have you tried shooting the car? How do you know it does not work?
　

(reply) And if that is not necessary in Heaven, why is it necessary now?

Because once we get there, the decision will have been made.

(reply) That's my complaint; many of the decisions and choices the bible claims he made don't sound righteous or qualified.

Then perhaps you should look at redefining those words.
　

(reply) Belief and understanding is not something I can choose.

Why not I choose them?

I am no more able to choose to believe what the scriptures say than you are able to choose to believe in Peter Pan. For me, belief happens after reason and logic demands it; never before. If it sounds unreasonable, if it sounds illogical, I am unable to believe it even if I tried.

Were you born this way, or were you taught to think this way? What is keeping you from changing now? Pride? Belief in what you have been taught to think to be an absolute?

Maybe your ability to believe these things has something to do with "faith" which is something that I never use and couldn't if I wanted to.

My faith came after "proof."

Also I must say; I appreciate the answers and explanations that you have given; my friend! Even though much of it doesn't make sense to me, I think you have given some of the best explanations I've received on this forum; and you've done so without getting angry and hostile. I just wanted to thank-you for that.

Remember i was the one who call you a slave. and we went round and round for a few pages.

That said thank you, and know I would have nothing to share if God did not share these things with me. Because of this it is my charge to share with all who ask. Sometimes my pride gets the best of me and i am working on being a more faithful "Servant/Slave" I do know I have a long way to go.

One final thought:
I don't know if I left you with this verse yet, but in luke11:　

5 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; 6 a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ 7 And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity[e] he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. 11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

We Ask through Prayer, We seek in the bible and in places like this and church, we knock by repeating this process till you get what your heart wants.
It seems as if you got the seeking and knocking down, why not take Christ up on his offer and simply ask. Do not let a proud heart stand in the way of the greatest gift man kind has ever known.. If you do not know what to ask for, simply ask:" Lord allow me to see, your hand in my life, allow me to Hear your words in the places I seek you, help me to change were I need to change." (When/if you do Hang on to something)

 

[Ken-1122]

When I said: "Let me ask you a few personal quesions; was it within God's will when you ate "Cornflakes" for breakfast instead of Cheerios? Did you makesure it was inside God's will when you chose to wear black shoes instead of the brown ones? Do you have to consort with God when they ask you "paper or plastic" at the grocery store? I will bet you make a million choices everyday that are neither inside or outside of your God's will."
　
Razontherock replied (quote) "None of these things connect to either the tree of life, nor of the knowledge of good and evil."
　
Nobody ever said it did! I was just making the point that not everything is going to be either inside God's will or a sin; there has to be some things that God just don't care about and the action is netural.
Next when I said: "And if that is not necessary in Heaven, why is it necessary now?"
　
Razontherock replied (quote) "This keeps coming up. The 2 are different."
　
(reply) Exactly! And that's what I have a problem with. I don't think the 2 should have been different; they should have been the same. When you guys get to Heaven, everything is gonna be perfect, no problems, no temptation to sin, and you won't have a problem in the world. I think those same opportunities should have been avaliable to Adam and Eve; they should have been made flawless without the desire to sin and without the temptation of the tree or Satan to cajole them into doing wrong.
If Satan is not going to be in Heaven, then he should not have been in the Garden either. If a forbidden tree is not going to be in Heaven, then there should not have been one in the Garden either
　
Drich0150 (quote) "You are confusing God Expressed Will, with God's Will. God's Expressed will is basically the Moral Law of God. (ten commandment kinda of stuff)
This has nothing to do with corn flakes or any other of the trivial things of life.".
　
(reply) Then why when I mentioned free will and choice, you replied that there are only 2 options we can choose from; God's will or sin? I just mentioned several choices we can make that are neither God's will nor sin!
　
(quote) "Have you tried shooting the car? How do you know it does not work?"
　
(reply) To shoot your car expecting it to work is illogical and unreasonable. Such a feat requires "faith" as I said before; I don't use faith.
　
(ken quote) "And if that is not necessary in Heaven, why is it necessary now?"
(drich reply) "Because once we get there, the decision will have been made."
　
(reply) I just think we can make such a decision without the unnecessary obstacle of "separation and return choice" that you mentioned
　
(Ken quote) "Belief and understanding is not something I can choose."
(Drich0150 reply) "Why not I choose them?"
　
(reply) Are you serious? Then you are a better man than me!

Understanding:

With understanding I either understand it or I do not; there is no choice in the matter. If I had the ability to understand something but choose not to, I am being dishonest with myself
　
Belief:

Before I said that belief happens when reason and logic demands it; not before. If Donald Trump were to offer me a million dollars to believe that I can fly like Peter Pan, I will be unable to believe it because reason and logic didn't demand I do so. Don't get me wrong; I can pretend I believe; maybe even convince Donald Trump that I believe just to get the money, but deep down I would know I was lying.

Now if you have the ability to convince yourself that you can fly like Peter Pan, (or something else equally outrageous that it causes your BS detectors to sound off), then you have skills that I and most people don't have. Personally I remain skeptical that you actually have this ability.


Ken

 

[drich0150]

Then why when I mentioned free will and choice, you replied that there are only 2 options we can choose from; God's will or sin? I just mentioned several choices we can make that are neither God's will nor sin!

　
We have three understandings of God's "will" As I mentioned God's Expressed will, or the Law. God perceived will or what "we" personally think God wants us to do in this life. some refer to this as a destiny. God "planed Will" Which has to do with His plan of our salvation.

I rarely use the terms "God's will" without reference to one of these three specific designation of God's will.

In your situation I have been consistently pointing to God's expressed will.

(reply) I just think we can make such a decision without the unnecessary obstacle of "separation and return choice" that you mentioned

Do you think yourself to be a greater being than the angels that rebelled, left, and never returned?
If nothing else the insurrection of Lucifer and his followers points to the need for sentient life to have true choice, otherwise resentment will be born and fester.

(reply) Are you serious? Then you are a better man than me!

Not better, just determined.

Understanding:

With understanding I either understand it or I do not; there is no choice in the matter. If I had the ability to understand something but choose not to, I am being dishonest with myself

For The things you do not understand is there not a choice to be made to allow those things to remain unknown? The choice I spoke of was the pursuit of knowledge.

Belief:

Before I said that belief happens when reason and logic demands it; not before.

Belief also happens when evidence demands it. Even if One may not have a full grasp of the logic.

If Donald Trump were to offer me a million dollars to believe that I can fly like Peter Pan, I will be unable to believe it because reason and logic didn't demand I do so. Don't get me wrong; I can pretend I believe; maybe even convince Donald Trump that I believe just to get the money, but deep down I would know I was lying.

What if trump took you on, or offered to take you on a peter pan flight and afterwords gave you your million dollars, and all you had to do is simply show up at a his recreation of the Jolly Rodger at a certain time? Would you show up? Even if you did not understand how all of this was to happen would it not still demand belief or faith for you to show up and expect to collect your money?

Now if you have the ability to convince yourself that you can fly like Peter Pan, (or something else equally outrageous that it causes your BS detectors to sound off), then you have skills that I and most people don't have. Personally I remain skeptical that you actually have this ability.

Perspective, perspective, perspective. I would say there are only three things keeping you from a relationship with God (maybe 4 if you count the pride that has you hanging on to the other three) do you want to guess what the three are?

 

[Ken-1122]

Drich0150 (quote) "We have three understandings of God's "will" As I mentioned God's Expressed will, or the Law. God perceived will or what "we" personally think God wants us to do in this life. some refer to this as a destiny. God "planed Will" Which has to do with His plan of our salvation.

I rarely use the terms "God's will" without reference to one of these three specific designation of God's will.

In your situation I have been consistently pointing to God's expressed will."
　
(reply) You didn't address the point I was making. I was saying that there are plenty of choices we can make without sin being in the picture. This idea that we have to be put in a situation where sin is easy and refraining from sin is difficult in order for free will, real choice, etc. to take place is bogus.
Just as you had the free will to wear brown shoes or black shoes, eat corn flakes or cheerios, without having to be conserned with the variaty of "wills" your God has, Adam and Eve had free will to go here, or there; to eat apples or oranges etc. and they didn't need Satan there to try to mess things up; and once they did mess up God didn't have to force this mistake upon his children and his children's children. That is the point I was making.
　
(quote) "Do you think yourself to be a greater being than the angels that rebelled, left, and never returned?
If nothing else the insurrection of Lucifer and his followers points to the need for sentient life to have true choice, otherwise resentment will be born and fester."
　
(reply) If somebody wants to leave Heaven after they get there; let them leave! It's not like they have to be prisoners there or something.
　
(quote) "For The things you do not understand is there not a choice to be made to allow those things to remain unknown? The choice I spoke of was the pursuit of knowledge."
　
(reply) True! But just because you pursuit knowledge of something, doesn't mean it is eventually going to make sense to you; some things just don't make sense.
　
(quote) "Belief also happens when evidence demands it. Even if One may not have a full grasp of the logic."
　
(reply) Evidence would fall under the catagory of "reason"
　
(quote) "What if trump took you on, or offered to take you on a peter pan flight and afterwords gave you your million dollars, and all you had to do is simply show up at a his recreation of the Jolly Rodger at a certain time? Would you show up? Even if you did not understand how all of this was to happen would it not still demand belief or faith for you to show up and expect to collect your money?"
　
(reply) Showing up would not require belief nor faith because I would show up full of doubt only looking to collect the money. But Donald Trump is not a good sceaniro because he can be seen, felt, and experienced via our five sences, and every one who claims to experience his existence gives a consistent report of what he is like.

A more accurate scenero would be; My friend "Joe" tells me he has an invisible friend who he can experience, but I can't until he decides to reveal himself to me.
this friend has a valuable gift for me but in order for me to recieve this gift I have to follow his directions in a book that he wrote! So I spend 6 years of my life reading this book and following his instructions to the best of my ability hoping he would reveal himself to me; to no avail.
When I inform Joe of my failed attempts he keeps insisting I am doing it all wrong; that I am being prideful, not trying hard enough, or is not being truthful to myself and that's why his invisible friend won't reveal himself to me. The failure is not in his invisible friend; it's in me.
Also after reading the book I find it contridicts itself and after speaking to others who read his book and claim to have contact with this invisible friend I notice everybody has a different percpetion of how we are supposed to get this gift and the only thing they have in common is they insist their interpertation is correct and everyone elses is wrong.
Then I notice there are a plethora of other invisible friends that people claim to speak to, and they all have different books and different rules for us to follow to get different gifts, and the people who read those books come away with a different perception of what is meant just like the friend that I am seeking, and the only things these invisible friends have in common is they insist they are real and all the others are fake!
After taking all this into consideration and looking at the big picture, I decide that maybe this invisible friend that I am looking for does not exist, and if he does; all he has to do is reveal himself to me and I will gladly accept his gift; but I ain't gonna hold my breath anymore. So I quit searching.
　
Peace
Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

drich0150 (quote) "Perspective, perspective, perspective. I would say there are only three things keeping you from a relationship with God (maybe 4 if you count the pride that has you hanging on to the other three) do you want to guess what the three are?"
　
(reply)
1)He doesn't exist / I am 100% convinced your idea of God doesn't exist
2) I spent 6 years searching to the best of my ability; if he did exist and wanted me to find him; I would have found him then
3) Humm..... Can't think of a 3rd one; 2 out of 3 ain't bad huh?


K

 

[drich0150]

　1)He doesn't exist / I am 100% convinced your idea of God doesn't exist

I've been searching for an (affordable) Ford labeled dealer installed 8-track, AM/FM radio for my old car since I was 18. I still haven't found one, does the length of my search have anything to do with the existence of this radio? What if I was looking in the wrong place? What if I was still expecting to find it at a dealership (where they could be located 35+ years ago, but are no longer found?) would it make sense for me to search all of them?

Yet you searched for God with a very old religious idea of what or who God is supposed to be. I honestly do not think God was ever found in those medieval portrayals of Him.Even if He was to be found there at that point in our history, it is evident that He is no longer there. So why look for Him there?

2) I spent 6 years searching to the best of my ability; if he did exist and wanted me to find him; I would have found him then

What is six year out of a life? What is six years in the scope of eternity? I have spent 25+ years looking for God and I am now just finding Him. As I am sure it will take another 25 or so to say I have a good Idea of what I have found.
I may never know what any of this truly means till after this life is over.

3) Humm..... Can't think of a 3rd one; 2 out of 3 ain't bad huh?

Maybe you should take another look at the first two, because again you are hinging all of eternity future on what you learned in a six year time span..

To put that in to Perspective, ask your self how long we spend educating ourselves to live comfortably in this life? and yet you are willing to go into eternity with a sixth grade education.

 

[Ken-1122]

Drich0150 (quote) I've been searching for an (affordable) Ford labeled dealer installed 8-track, AM/FM radio for my old car since I was 18. I still haven't found one, does the length of my search have anything to do with the existence of this radio? What if I was looking in the wrong place? What if I was still expecting to find it at a dealership (where they could be located 35+ years ago, but are no longer found?) would it make sense for me to search all of them?
　
(reply)That's different! A radio is an inanimate object that has on desire to be found. God is supposed to be different.
　
(quote) "Yet you searched for God with a very old religious idea of what or who God is supposed to be. I honestly do not think God was ever found in those medieval portrayals of Him.Even if He was to be found there at that point in our history, it is evident that He is no longer there. So why look for Him there?"
　
(reply) Why must it be so difficult? Why can't a person who is sincere in their attempts; even if he was given some false information but is doing the best he can do with what he has to work with find him the very first time he searches? Why can't he (as T-Bone would say) help a brotha out?
If God knows everything, he knew I would give up if he remains hidden long enough; so why would he remain hidden? I believe it is either he didn't want me to find him or he doesn't exist. If he didn't want me to find him then procedes to punish me for not finding him would mean he is curel. If it is because he dosent exist...... now that makes more sense
　
(quote) "What is six year out of a life? What is six years in the scope of eternity? I have spent 25+ years looking for God and I am now just finding Him. As I am sure it will take another 25 or so to say I have a good Idea of what I have found.
I may never know what any of this truly means till after this life is over."
　
(reply) I am human. As a human if you try to accomplish something and each time you try you meet 100% failure, eventually you either go crazy or you give up; I gave up. Again; why must it be so difficult?
　
(quote) "To put that in to Perspective, ask your self how long we spend educating ourselves to live comfortably in this life? and yet you are willing to go into eternity with a sixth grade education. "

(reply) when I went to school, I was constantly learning and after 6 years even though I didn't learn everything I did learn a lot. If I were the same place after six years, that I was when I first started first grade, I would have given up on school as well.


Ken