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Featured Will God save people out of hell too? And did Jesus go to hell for the 3 days after his crucifixtion

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Robin Mauro, Oct 1, 2018.

  1. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    maybe you misunderstood my post robin, I fully believe Jesus Christ IS the saviour of all men.

    God simply cannot fail/miss the mark/sin.

    every doctrine outside of the salvation of ALL teach of a God who fails/misses his mark/sins which is abhorrent in my eyes.
     
  2. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Yet you don't believe 1 tim. 4:10 exactly as it is written. go figure.
     
  3. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    Each and every covenant was granted by the blood of Jesus Christ and possesses the power to save humans under a certain scope and time frame. The first covenant was given to Noah to save him and his family from the destruction of earth by a flood.

    Theoretically, humans before Noah are unsavable due to the lack of a covenant by the blood of Christ. That's why Jesus spent the 3 days preaching the gospel to humans back in Noah's days such that human souls before Noah can be savable by the New Covenant.
     
  4. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    It's not proper to say that God is only the savior of, say, the Jews and Christians. God is the savior of all mankind. This is true especially to those who believe Him. It however by no means says that He will save those choose to reject the offer of His salvation. Rather it means that His salvation is offered to everyone equally.
     
  5. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Nonsense. There is not one single verse in either testament where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, is speaking and either one says that they will save all mankind after death if they don't repent in this life. In fact God, Himself, says just the opposite.
    [1]Psalms 115:17
    (17) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence;
    [2]Psalms 6:5
    (5) (6:6) For in death there is no remembrance of Thee; in the nether-world who will give Thee thanks?
    [3]Psalms 30:9 'What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise Thee? shall it declare Thy truth?
    [4]Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
    [5]Psalms 88:10-12
    (10) (88:11) Wilt Thou work wonders for the dead? Or shall the shades arise and give Thee thanks? Selah
    (11) (88:12) Shall Thy mercy be declared in the grave? or Thy faithfulness in destruction?
    (12) (88:13) Shall Thy wonders be known in the dark? and Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
    [6]Isaiah 38:18
    (18) For the nether-world cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee; they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth.
    [7]Proverbs 24:20
    (20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
    [8]Ecclesiastes 9:5
    (5) For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    [9]Isaiah 26:14
    (14) They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise.. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.
    [10]Psalms 49:17-19
    (17) For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.
    (18) Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself.
    (19) He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.
    [11]Proverbs 10:28-29
    (28) The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
    (29) The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
    [12]Proverbs 11:7
    (7) When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.
    [13]Job 8:13
    (13) So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite's hope shall perish:
    [14]Job 8:20
    (20) Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he [God] help the evil doers:
    [15]Ezekiel 21:31-32
    (31) And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in the fire of my wrath, and deliver thee into the hand of brutish men, and skilful to destroy.
    (32) Thou shalt be for fuel to the fire; thy blood shall be in the midst of the land; thou shalt be no more remembered: for I the LORD have spoken it.
     
  6. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    No it says saviour of ALL MEN,
    Not the potential saviour of all men.

    You are reading your doctrine into that scripture to make it say something it does not.
     
  7. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    No, it means God is the savior of all men such that He can grant salvation to anyone. It by no means says that He would save everyone.

    That's why,

    Matthew 25:46 (NIV2011)
    “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you have a point in posting these verses? Usually they are posted by those who believe, as JWs & SDAs do, in the dogmas of "soul sleep". Do you believe in the JW or SDA dogmas of "soul sleep"? Compare Revelation 7:9-12; 15:1-4.

    The Psalmist evidently has many questions, but does he have any answers? He also says:

    Psalm 86:9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.
    Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S: and he is the governor among the nations.
    Psalm 72:11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
    Psalm 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed. ALL the ENDS of the world shall turn unto the Lord.
    Psalm 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
    10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
    Psalm 136:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
    Gods mercy endures for ever over ALL HIS WORKS.


    Dead corpses in graves don't praise, celebrate, hope, or do anything but rot.

    Isa.38:18 For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness. 19a The living, only the living, can thank You, as I do today;

    Some commentaries opine: "We have here Hezekiah's thanksgiving...All these gloomy and desponding views arose from the imperfect conception which they had of the future world."
    Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

    Compare:

    After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.” (Revelation 7:9-12)

    " a future, i.e. a happy close of life, suggesting sometimes the idea of a posterity, promised to the righteous Proverbs 23:18 ("" תִּקְוָה hope) Proverbs 24:14; Jeremiah 29:11 (וְתִקְוָה ׳לָתֵת לָכֶם א), withheld from the wicked Proverbs 24:20" (BDB lexicon).

    Prov.24:20 For there shall be no REWARD to the evil the candle of the wicked shall be put out (Hebrew-English Interlinear) Proverbs 24 אל Be not תקנא thou envious באנשׁי men, רעה against evil ואל neither תתאו desire להיות to be אתם׃ with

    Not until the evil forsakes his way will he have any reward:

    Isa.55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
    Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
    I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.
    18 “I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
    I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

    Which all the evil shall do (Isa.45:21-25; Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13, etc).

    Prov.24:20 For the posterity of an evil one cannot continue; and the lamp of the wicked shall be extinguished. (CTT, LXX)
    Prov.24: 20 For there is not a posterity to the evil, The lamp of the wicked is extinguished. (YLT)


    Do you have a point in posting these verses? Do you believe in the JW or SDA dogmas of "soul sleep"? Compare Revelation 7:9-12; 15:1-4.


    Notice the past & present tenses there. Nothing about a final destiny in the future. OTOH this does address future destiny:

    Isa.45:21b and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    The word mistranslated "never" above is Strong's Hebrew word #5331, netsach.

    The Hebrew of Psa.49:19 has "until"[5704] "a goal"[5331]:

    "netsach {nay'-tsakh}; from 5329; properly, a goal...":

    Strongs's #5331: netsach - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools
    Strong's #5331 - נֶצַח - Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

    5704: "Short Definition: until":

    Strong's Hebrew: 5704. עַד (ad) -- as far as, even to, up to, until, while

    The LXX Hebrew scholars who translated NETSACH in the Septuagint rendered it AION[165] in the Greek OT, meaning literally an "age" or "eon" (The Apostolic Bible Polygot, Greek-English Interlinear, p,794). This Greek-English interlinear says "unto the eon he shall not see light". BTW, the Greek OT was the Scriptures most often quoted in the NT & used by the early church.

    Here it is translated "permanence":

    Psa.49:19 Yet he shall come unto the generation of his fathers; Unto permanence, they shall not see light. (CLV)

    permanently, "in a way that lasts or remains unchanged indefinitely"

    "the state or quality of lasting or remaining unchanged indefinitely. "the clarity and permanence of the dyes" "

    Here netsach is used of finite duration that had already ended & is translated "perpetually":

    Amos 1:11 Thus, saith Yahweh, Because of three transgressions of Edom, and because of four, will I not turn it back,—Because he pursued, with the sword, his brother, and stifled his compassions, and his anger tare in pieces evermore, and, his indignation, kept watch perpetually[5331]

    "He shall go to the generation of his fathers - To be gathered to one's own people, or to his fathers, is a common expression in the Old Testament in speaking of death. See Genesis 25:8, Genesis 25:17; Genesis 35:29; Genesis 49:29, Genesis 49:33, Numbers 20:24, Numbers 20:26; Numbers 27:13; Numbers 31:2; Deuteronomy 32:50; Judges 2:10. It means that they were united again with those who had gone before them, in the regions of the dead. Death had indeed separated them, but by death they were again united."

    "They shall never see light - He and the "generation" to which he has gone to be united, would no more see the light of this world; no more walk among the living: Job 33:30. Compare the notes at Isaiah 38:11; notes at Psalm 27:13. The meaning is, that the rich sinner will die as others have done before him, leaving all his earthly possessions, and will no more be permitted to revisit the world where his forsaken possessions are, and will not even be permitted to "look" on what before had been to him such a source of self-confidence, self-gratulation, and pride." (Barnes' Notes on the Bible)

    "they shall never see light; neither he nor his fathers; they shall never see light of the sun any more, nor return to the light of the living, but shall lie in the dark and silent grave until the resurrection; " (biblehub)




    What is the hope or "expectation of the wicked"? What is "destruction", a mere physical bodily death which will be followed by resurrection? Or some sort of "ruin" as many versions have it, e.g.:

    Prov.10:29 The way of God is strength to the perfect, And ruin to workers of iniquity.

    Expectation/hope of what? To live to see his great grandchildren? To live a long life?

    "expectation … perish—for death cuts short all his plans" (bibliehub)

    "his expectation shall perish,.... His expectation of a longer life, of getting more riches, attaining to more honour, enjoying more pleasure here,..." (biblehub)

    "His expectation; that which he hoped for and set his heart upon, worldly prosperity, long life, impunity, - all are cut off,..." (biblehub)

    Ditto my previous comment.

    Bildad's opinion. Not "thus sayeth the Lord". OTOH, Jesus says:

    Mt.5:44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even tax collectors do the same?

    And a number of other translations differ:

    Job 8:20 Surely God does not reject one who is blameless or strengthen the hands of evildoers.

    This commentary applies the passage to a nation, not individuals: "Shalt be no more remembered.—Ammon should be utterly destroyed, as fuel in the fire; the life-blood of the nation should be poured out, and her name vanish." (biblehub)

    The KJV has the word "more" in italics, indicating it does not exist in the Hebrew. NASB & NET have "You will not be remembered" & "you will no longer be remembered". Which recalls Paul's words to the saints that they would "no longer" or "no more" (Acts 20:25) see his face. Does that lead you to conclude the saints will - never - again see his face, even in the afterlife?

    If anyone was to - never - be remembered any more by anyone, is God going to lobotomize all those in heaven so they can't remember all their lost loved ones, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, brothers, sisters & friends? Will God then also lobotomize Himself so He cannot remember any more, either, & thereby lobotomize his omniscience so that it no longer exists forever & ever & ever?

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is a whole list of them posted here:

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    And in this book which is also an excellent introduction to biblical universalism:

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    And in these articles:

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  10. Robin Mauro

    Robin Mauro Well-Known Member

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    Yes, or I responded to the wrong person.
    Thanks for the clarification.
    I hope you are right. I wish I knew some people locally who also believe this, so we could study the hell scriptures together, because the Bible seems to say both; but the hell scriptures can be difficult to understand.
    One thing I do believe for sure though, is it is not a place anyone would want to go, even temporarily. Thanks for your input.
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hawkins, do you agree with this comment:

     
  12. Robin Mauro

    Robin Mauro Well-Known Member

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    Something does not work on this website. I was responding to pnue...some name I can't remember, and wound up responding to myself. I do not think it is me, because I had just read his or her reply, and hit post reply, but it wound up in the wrong place
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I wonder if there is a malfunction in the site.

    BTW, your post #62 did respond to Pneuma3.

    While in posts 74 & 76 you replied to yourself.
     
  14. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    try reading that scripture in a literal translation.
    age during/age abiding and that is way it means Jesus Christ is the saviour of all
     
  15. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    It does seem to be wonky. I start to type and look up and only part of my sentence shows up.

    P.S. you can refer to me as P3 if you like. I often shorten peoples names as sometimes they are just to long to remember
     
  16. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Look at it this way Robin Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me.

    Which doctrine eternal torment, annihilation or the salvation of all actually lifts Jesus up?
    People are leaving the churches in droves because the doctrines they teach do not lift Jesus up.
     
  17. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Also think of Gods faithfulness is He faithful to do all that He set out to do, or will he miss his mark/sin

     
  18. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Also take note that what Paul says in 1 tim 4:10 is echoed by John in 1Jn.4:14

    And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son the Saviour of the world.
     
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Raymond: The Scripture under consideration=

    "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
     
  20. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Pneuma: I notice in some earlier post the concept that God desires all mankind to be saved. Alas the word in koine is a mite stronger than "wishes" or "desires"! He "wills" all mankind to be saved! I am of the opinion that the Will of all little wills prevails.

    From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..

    Yes, He is the Source, the Guide & the Goal, of the ta pante!
     
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