Will God save people out of hell too? And did Jesus go to hell for the 3 days after his crucifixtion

Natsumi Lam

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It has already been well established you do not believe God spoke through Paul or the other apostles when they said all men/world will be saved. and you are simply misunderstanding those scriptures.

Matt 7:13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matt 22:14

For many are called, but few are chosen.
 
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Pneuma3

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Matt 7:13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matt 22:14

For many are called, but few are chosen.

and who are those scriptures addressed to, those who believe or those who do not?
 
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Pneuma3

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Matt 7:13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matt 22:14

For many are called, but few are chosen.

and who are those scriptures addressed to, those who believe or those who do not?

also those scripture have NOTHING to do with the next life, they are referring to entering into the kingdom of Heaven in THIS LIFE.
 
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JoeP222w

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God does not save those in Hell. If He did, His justice and righteous wrath against sin would be utterly meaningless and Jesus would have died a most gruesome and horrible death for absolutely nothing.

Jesus did not go to Hell when He died on the cross.
 
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Pneuma3

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God does not save those in Hell. If He did, His justice and righteous wrath against sin would be utterly meaningless and Jesus would have died a most gruesome and horrible death for absolutely nothing.

Jesus did not go to Hell when He died on the cross.

Huh? Gods wrath is the power of the LAW, which is a ministration of DEATH , and also our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

in other words Gods righteous wrath is used to teach the world righteousness. For when Gods judgments (plural) are in the earth the world will learn righteousness.

You belief is the one which actually means Christ gruesome and horrible death means absolutely nothing. For you either believe in eternal torment or annihilation, both of which state Jesus died for the world, yet His death means nothing for untold millions.

The wages of sin is DEATH and Jesus tasted DEATH for every man.
 
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Natsumi Lam

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Huh? Gods wrath is the power of the LAW, which is a ministration of DEATH , and also our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

in other words Gods righteous wrath is used to teach the world righteousness. For when Gods judgments (plural) are in the earth the world will learn righteousness.

You belief is the one which actually means Christ gruesome and horrible death means absolutely nothing. For you either believe in eternal torment or annihilation, both of which state Jesus died for the world, yet His death means nothing for untold millions.

The wages of sin is DEATH and Jesus tasted DEATH for every man.

So i just want to clarify...you believe all people are saved...no matter if they accept Jesus or not...everyone ends up with Him forever?
 
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Pneuma3

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So i just want to clarify...you believe all people are saved...no matter if they accept Jesus or not...everyone ends up with Him forever?

not quite, all will accept Jesus for every knee shall bow in reverential worship and every tongue confess in praise and honour that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father.

Thus all will be saved as confession is made unto salvation
 
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Natsumi Lam

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not quite, all will accept Jesus for every knee shall bow in reverential worship and every tongue confess in praise and honour that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father.

Thus all will be saved as confession is made unto salvation

Is it through the Holy Spirit that we are saved?

1 Cor 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

What about the verse having to do with no new salvation because the restrainer, the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way:

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. (NASB) 2 Thessalonians 2:7


What about those who take the mark of the beast and bow down to the beast?

Rev 14:9-11
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name
 
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JoeP222w

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Huh? Gods wrath is the power of the LAW, which is a ministration of DEATH , and also our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

in other words Gods righteous wrath is used to teach the world righteousness. For when Gods judgments (plural) are in the earth the world will learn righteousness.

You belief is the one which actually means Christ gruesome and horrible death means absolutely nothing. For you either believe in eternal torment or annihilation, both of which state Jesus died for the world, yet His death means nothing for untold millions.

The wages of sin is DEATH and Jesus tasted DEATH for every man.

Jesus only saves the elect of God. Not every single human being that has ever existed will be saved.
 
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ClementofA

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God does not save those in Hell. If He did, His justice and righteous wrath against sin would be utterly meaningless and Jesus would have died a most gruesome and horrible death for absolutely nothing.

Compare this:


I've read all the verses Universalists cite and it never entered my mind that everyone would be saved. It seemed to me that the OT, Jesus, and the NT made that extremely clear, otherwise what is the point of the Bible, free will, and even life? And then there would be no such thing as justice. (More people should pay attention to what victims of extreme injustice say what justice is. There are people in the world who believe they are already in hell.)

So your argument is if there is no eternal torture for most human beings, then there's no point to "the Bible, free will, and even life"?

And unless billions are fried alive forever for the sins of a relatively momentary life, there is "no such thing as justice"?

Are "victims of extreme injustice" usually bitter & unforgiving & often wish endless hell upon those who hurt them?

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart
 
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ClementofA

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Matt 7:13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Destruction (Mt.7:13-14) can be & is used in the process of bringing people to life/salvation:

1 Cor.5:4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

1. Jesus says "FEW" were finding it (Mt.7:13-14)
2. Paul says "MANY" will be saved (Rom.5:18-19)

Both are right.

Jesus was referring to only the people at His time in the first century, and not their final destiny. Paul was referring to final destiny when all will be saved.

Bible versions don't say "few will EVER find it" (Mt.7:13-14). This Greek Interliner says "finding":

Matthew 7:14 Interlinear: how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Young's Literal Translation
how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Matthew 7:14 is in the present tense, few "finding" it, speaking of those people at that particular time, not of final destiny. Earlier in Matthew final destiny was already revealed re salvation:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

"How narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life, and few are those who find (heuriskontes | εὑρίσκοντες | pres act ptcp nom pl masc) it! Matt 7:14"

"In v.13 the word for 'enter' is the Greek word 'eiserchomenoi' which as noted is a present tense participle more accurately translated as 'entering.' Thus all this verse is saying is that there are many who are presently entering the wide gate. This verse does not refer at all to sometime in the future where people may or may not be resurrected out of the lake of fire. If it did, this verse would employ the future tense of the verb - but it doesn't. We can only say what this verse states - simply that when Jesus spoke these words, many are entering the broad gate/road."

"Same thing with v.14. The word for 'find' is 'heuriskontes' which is a present tense participle. Thus few people are currently 'finding' the narrow gate. No reference at all to the future."

Note the word "many", not "few":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All. Those will He "justify" (Isa.53:11).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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ClementofA

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Matt 22:14

For many are called, but few are chosen.

Few chosen. For what? A final destiny of salvation from which the rest (the many others) are forever excluded? No, Paul says "many" shall be saved, not "few". And by "the many" he means all fallen human beings:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

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ClementofA

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What about the verse having to do with no new salvation because the restrainer, the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way:

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. (NASB) 2 Thessalonians 2:7

It doesn't mention anyone being lost forever or the Holy Spirit giving up on anyone forever.

What about those who take the mark of the beast and bow down to the beast?

Rev 14:9-11
9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name

Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

And another more literal translation than yours:

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Scripture also speaks of night being "no more". So can "day and night" be forever?

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Natsumi Lam

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