mindlight

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Darwin has been acclaimed as one of the icons of Western civilisation and scientific superiority to more primitive and superstitious cultures. However work by eminent Chinese palaeontologists like for example J. Y. Chen have challenged these Western assumptions and cast real doubts on the theory of evolution itself. When Chen expressed these doubts in a lecture in 2000 in the University of Washingtons geology department. He was asked if he did not think expressing these doubts about Darwinism was a bit of a risk for him.
Chens answer quoted by Stephen C. Meyer in his book Darwins Doubt (Cambrian explosion issue for Darwinism) was very interesting.

Chen said:

"In China we can criticise Darwin but not the government. In America, you can criticise your government, but not Darwin."

I wonder if the idolatry of Darwin, which is reinforced by politicians making spending decisions for university funding etc, in Western scientific circles, will be more likely overthrown by an emerging power like China than internally recognised as problematic and unreal by Western scientists themselves.

When it comes to science is there more freedom of thought in Chinese scientific circles than in Western academia?
 
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Lapinot

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Very interesting, i have always noticed that in Western countries we are not very much allowed of being sceptical about science. For instance if you dare to express your doubts concerning global warming, you will be rejected and mocked by people and even by the medias.
It is good to see these western scientific theories being challenged by oriental thinkers, it brings very interesting debates in the world !
 
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sfs

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Any scientist anywhere can "overthrow Darwin". All he or she has to do is present scientific evidence that Darwin was wrong. Except that large parts of Darwin have already been overthrown and replaced with more accurate evolutionary theories. If someone wants to overthrow the basic fact of evolution -- that all life is related by common ancestry -- they have a very tall order. But again, all that's really needed is the evidence.
 
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The reason why people are mocked for global warming denial is that the science is settled on this matter. As it is for the earth being a sphere. Appropriate skepticism is one thing - and it is indeed central to science - but conspiracy thinking is quite another.

People reject the scientific consensus on global warming for political and other irrelevant reasons.
 
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~Anastasia~

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When it comes to science is there more freedom of thought in Chinese scientific circles than in Western academia?

As to your last question, western academia has very little tolerance for anything that questions certain "sacred cows". I'm actually a little surprised how quickly derision and mocking becomes the theme of the day when anyone begins to seriously question various paradigms, even if they offer compelling alternatives. You'd think they had put forth a theory akin to "the earth rests on the back of a giant turtle". Alternative thought is sometimes shut down before anyone has a chance to investigate it, and sometimes people are afraid of asking questions that could bring down such public humiliation upon themselves. So yes, there possibly is much more freedom in Chinese scientific thought, but I wouldn't actually know about that.




(Edited to remove everything in original quote except last sentence, to hopefully make it clearer what I was responding to.)
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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As to your last question, western academia has very little tolerance for anything that questions certain "sacred cows". I'm actually a little surprised how quickly derision and mocking becomes the theme of the day when anyone begins to seriously question various paradigms, even if they offer compelling alternatives. You'd think they had put forth a theory akin to "the earth rests on the back of a giant turtle". Alternative thought is sometimes shut down before anyone has a chance to investigate it, and sometimes people are afraid of asking questions that could bring down such public humiliation upon themselves. So yes, there possibly is much more freedom in Chinese scientific thought, but I wouldn't actually know about that.

Western academia has very little tolerance for anything that questions reality. Some people question reality based on their religion, and they think western academia is against them for that reason. If you want to get Western Academics to change their mind on a subject, use reality to show how their interpretations of reality are wrong. Don't use religion; use reality.

Speaking of reality, do you realize you have vestigial ear wiggling muscles? Evolution history explains why you do. Separate creation hypothesis does not explain that. The reality of your ear wiggling muscles is one of the barriers to rejecting evolution. ONLY ONE OF THEM. Reality is against you on this.
 
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Denadii

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Darwin has been acclaimed as one of the icons of Western civilisation and scientific superiority to more primitive and superstitious cultures. However work by eminent Chinese palaeontologists like for example J. Y. Chen have challenged these Western assumptions and cast real doubts on the theory of evolution itself. When Chen expressed these doubts in a lecture in 2000 in the University of Washingtons geology department. He was asked if he did not think expressing these doubts about Darwinism was a bit of a risk for him.
Chens answer quoted by Stephen C. Meyer in his book Darwins Doubt (Cambrian explosion issue for Darwinism) was very interesting.

Chen said:

"In China we can criticise Darwin but not the government. In America, you can criticise your government, but not Darwin."

I wonder if the idolatry of Darwin, which is reinforced by politicians making spending decisions for university funding etc, in Western scientific circles, will be more likely overthrown by an emerging power like China than internally recognised as problematic and unreal by Western scientists themselves.

When it comes to science is there more freedom of thought in Chinese scientific circles than in Western academia?

There is an interesting movie "Expelled No Intelligence Allowed" I believe you can see it on Youtube. It talks about this very scenario. Maybe you should watch it?
 
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~Anastasia~

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Western academia has very little tolerance for anything that questions reality. Some people question reality based on their religion, and they think western academia is against them for that reason. If you want to get Western Academics to change their mind on a subject, use reality to show how their interpretations of reality are wrong. Don't use religion; use reality.

Speaking of reality, do you realize you have vestigial ear wiggling muscles? Evolution history explains why you do. Separate creation hypothesis does not explain that. The reality of your ear wiggling muscles is one of the barriers to rejecting evolution. ONLY ONE OF THEM. Reality is against you on this.

I personally said nothing about either religion or evolution. I had broader categories in mind. It really doesn't matter the basis for the challenge, sometimes. Western academics can be harsh to anything that challenges certain pet theories.


So I'm not quite sure what you are reading into my post that you claim reality is against. :)

No argument intended, btw. But my comment was solely on the state of academia, with which I was at one time quite well acquainted. :)
 
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Any scientist anywhere can "overthrow Darwin". All he or she has to do is present scientific evidence that Darwin was wrong. Except that large parts of Darwin have already been overthrown and replaced with more accurate evolutionary theories. If someone wants to overthrow the basic fact of evolution -- that all life is related by common ancestry -- they have a very tall order. But again, all that's really needed is the evidence.

Meyers book Darwins Doubt seems to overthrow the theory with his discussion of the lack of preCambian fossil precursors to those spontaneously appearing in the Cambrian Explosion

Darwins Doubt - Cambrian Explosion
 
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mindlight

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There is an interesting movie "Expelled No Intelligence Allowed" I believe you can see it on Youtube. It talks about this very scenario. Maybe you should watch it?

It even made a profit at the box office despite scathing reviews from the media establishment about it being paranoid propaganda. Meyers book Darwins Doubt is a serious scientific text and he reasonably considers all the alternatives to his theory. Personally I am a YEC not a ID proponent. But I have to admire the ways in which ID raises serious questions about the theory and exposes major problems with it.
 
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Plus, i might be mistaken, but i heard Darwin was a Christian man.

He did study theology briefly before switching to science. He was married to a devoutly Christian woman and was aware to some extent of what she suffered being married to him. But there is little evidence that he actually understood what a relationship to God entailed or made any kind of real commitment. Though I guess to a considerable extent it depends on whose version of history you believe when you read about him. In the end God only knows. The fruit of his theories has been an increased level of doubt and scepticism about the scriptures and a failure to acknowledge God as Creator.
 
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sfs

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Meyers book Darwins Doubt seems to overthrow the theory with his discussion of the lack of preCambian fossil precursors to those spontaneously appearing in the Cambrian Explosion
Scientists who have read and reviewed the book think otherwise.
 
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Scientists who have read and reviewed the book think otherwise.

Ideologists who have an agenda to support have rejected this book as being inconsistent with that agenda and metanarrative. They are correct.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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I personally said nothing about either religion or evolution. I had broader categories in mind. It really doesn't matter the basis for the challenge, sometimes. Western academics can be harsh to anything that challenges certain pet theories.


So I'm not quite sure what you are reading into my post that you claim reality is against. :)

No argument intended, btw. But my comment was solely on the state of academia, with which I was at one time quite well acquainted. :)

All partisans, whether western or whatever, can be harsh to anything that challenges certain pet theories. So that is not an argument against the theories.

How about using evidence, instead of pointing out flaws in the people who hold the theories? Aren't we all flawed?
 
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Ideologists who have an agenda to support have rejected this book as being inconsistent with that agenda and metanarrative. They are correct.
Scientists, who have a wide range of worldviews and religious faiths, have rejected the book as inaccurately reflecting current scientific knowledge about the Cambrian Explosion. That has nothing to do with metanarratives.

In any case, none of this is really relevant to the point I was making: the evidence for common descent is independent of specific mechanisms by which life has changed.
 
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Scientists, who have a wide range of worldviews and religious faiths, have rejected the book as inaccurately reflecting current scientific knowledge about the Cambrian Explosion. That has nothing to do with metanarratives.

In any case, none of this is really relevant to the point I was making: the evidence for common descent is independent of specific mechanisms by which life has changed.

As a Creationist I would have to say there was no biblical evidence for common descent but plenty for a common Designer and an intelligence in creation!!!

However what Meyer and the ID movement generally has to say relating to the methodologies employed by scientists in reading the patterns in the rocks and plotting the discontinuities and continuities into some kind of diagram of relationships is interesting. It has become a circle of self supporting self referential self perpetuating statements. The high priests of scientific academia learn the jargon of their trade and squeeze the facts into their framework / story. Only those who speak the creeds with the appropriate reverence and learning get to say what is or is not true. If IDs feel persecuted in the halls of science where they claim to speak with the authority of science too I think that looks really true. Launching the discussion on the science forum I was amazed at how quick this became an ad hominem personal response and how little was said about the real issues except the quoting of the party line. But I do not underestimate the power of this ideology on peoples minds. Which is why I would suggest that it may well be great power politics that finally breaks Darwin. The relevance of Darwin to science that makes a difference in the battle field or in terms of economic advantage is after all absolutely minimal.
 
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Chen said:

"In China we can criticise Darwin but not the government. In America, you can criticise your government, but not Darwin."

Chen is dead wrong. Darwin is widely criticized in America.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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On a related note, one of the coolest and most educational exhibits on evolution I've ever seen is at the Shanghai Natural History Museum. The Mankind Evolution Hall at the Beijing Natural History Museum is also very informative.
 
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Darwinism Must Die So That Evolution May Live --- By CARL SAFINA

"You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat-catching," Robert Darwin told his son, "and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family." Yet the feckless boy is everywhere. Charles Darwin gets so much credit, we can’t distinguish evolution from him. Equating evolution with Charles Darwin ignores 150 years of discoveries, including most of what scientists understand about evolution. Such as: Gregor Mendel’s patterns of heredity (which gave Darwin’s idea of natural selection a mechanism — genetics — by which it could work); the discovery of DNA (which gave genetics a mechanism and lets us see evolutionary lineages); developmental biology (which gives DNA a mechanism); studies documenting evolution in nature (which converted the hypothetical to observable fact); evolution’s role in medicine and disease (bringing immediate relevance to the topic); and more. By propounding "Darwinism," even scientists and science writers perpetuate an impression that evolution is about one man, one book, one "theory." The ninth-century Buddhist master Lin Chi said, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." The point is that making a master teacher into a sacred fetish misses the essence of his teaching. So let us now kill Darwin.

That all life is related by common ancestry, and that populations change form over time, are the broad strokes and fine brushwork of evolution. But Darwin was late to the party. His grandfather, and others, believed new species evolved. Farmers and fanciers continually created new plant and animal varieties by selecting who survived to breed, thus handing Charles Darwin an idea. All Darwin perceived was that selection must work in nature, too. In 1859, Darwin’s perception and evidence became "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or The Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life." Few realize he published 8 books before and 10 books after "Origin." He wrote seminal books on orchids, insects, barnacles and corals. He figured out how atolls form, and why they’re tropical. Credit Darwin’s towering genius. No mind ran so freely, so widely or so freshly over the hills and vales of existence. But there’s a limit to how much credit is reasonable. Parking evolution with Charles Darwin overlooks the limits of his time and all subsequent progress.

Science was primitive in Darwin’s day. Ships had no engines. Not until 1842, six years after Darwin’s Beagle voyage, did Richard Owen coin the term "dinosaur." Darwin was an adult before scientists began debating whether germs caused disease and whether physicians should clean their instruments. In 1850s London, John Snow fought cholera unaware that bacteria caused it. Not until 1857 did Johann Carl Fuhlrott and Hermann Schaaffhausen announce that unusual bones from the Neander Valley in Germany were perhaps remains of a very old human race. In 1860 Louis Pasteur performed experiments that eventually disproved "spontaneous generation," the idea that life continually arose from nonliving things. Science has marched on. But evolution can seem uniquely stuck on its founder. We don’t call astronomy Copernicism, nor gravity Newtonism. "Darwinism" implies an ideology adhering to one man’s dictates, like Marxism. And "isms" (capitalism, Catholicism, racism) are not science. "Darwinism" implies that biological scientists "believe in" Darwin’s "theory." It’s as if, since 1860, scientists have just ditto-headed Darwin rather than challenging and testing his ideas, or adding vast new knowledge.

Using phrases like "Darwinian selection" or "Darwinian evolution" implies there must be another kind of evolution at work, a process that can be described with another adjective. For instance, "Newtonian physics" distinguishes the mechanical physics Newton explored from subatomic quantum physics. So "Darwinian evolution" raises a question: What’s the other evolution? Into the breach: intelligent design. I am not quite saying Darwinism gave rise to creationism, though the "isms" imply equivalence. But the term "Darwinian" built a stage upon which "intelligent" could share the spotlight.

Charles Darwin didn’t invent a belief system. He had an idea, not an ideology. The idea spawned a discipline, not disciples. He spent 20-plus years amassing and assessing the evidence and implications of similar, yet differing, creatures separated in time (fossils) or in space (islands). That’s science. That’s why Darwin must go.

Almost everything we understand about evolution came after Darwin, not from him. He knew nothing of heredity or genetics, both crucial to evolution. Evolution wasn’t even Darwin’s idea. Darwin’s grandfather Erasmus believed life evolved from a single ancestor. "Shall we conjecture that one and the same kind of living filaments is and has been the cause of all organic life?" he wrote in "Zoonomia" in 1794. He just couldn’t figure out how. Charles Darwin was after the how. Thinking about farmers’ selective breeding, considering the high mortality of seeds and wild animals, he surmised that natural conditions acted as a filter determining which individuals survived to breed more individuals like themselves. He called this filter "natural selection." What Darwin had to say about evolution basically begins and ends right there. Darwin took the tiniest step beyond common knowledge. Yet because he perceived — correctly — a mechanism by which life diversifies, his insight packed sweeping power.

But he wasn’t alone. Darwin had been incubating his thesis for two decades when Alfred Russel Wallace wrote to him from Southeast Asia, independently outlining the same idea. Fearing a scoop, Darwin’s colleagues arranged a public presentation crediting both men. It was an idea whose time had come, with or without Darwin. Darwin penned the magnum opus. Yet there were weaknesses. Individual variation underpinned the idea, but what created variants? Worse, people thought traits of both parents blended in the offspring, so wouldn’t a successful trait be diluted out of existence in a few generations? Because Darwin and colleagues were ignorant of genes and the mechanics of inheritance, they couldn’t fully understand evolution.

Gregor Mendel, an Austrian monk, discovered that in pea plants inheritance of individual traits followed patterns. Superiors burned his papers posthumously in 1884. Not until Mendel’s rediscovered "genetics" met Darwin’s natural selection in the "modern synthesis" of the 1920s did science take a giant step toward understanding evolutionary mechanics. Rosalind Franklin, James Watson and Francis Crick bestowed the next leap: DNA, the structure and mechanism of variation and inheritance.

Darwin’s intellect, humility ("It is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance") and prescience astonish more as scientists clarify, in detail he never imagined, how much he got right. But our understanding of how life works since Darwin won’t swim in the public pool of ideas until we kill the cult of Darwinism. Only when we fully acknowledge the subsequent century and a half of value added can we really appreciate both Darwin’s genius and the fact that evolution is life’s driving force, with or without Darwin.
 
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