will a border wall stop human trafficking and drug smuggling?

[createdtoworship]

please forgive me if this thread is already posted, let me know.

This week I had a vision where God told me immigration is good, and illegal immigration should be allowed. (I won't get into the details, accept to say that I don't believe Jesus would build a wall if He were president, I don't see Him refusing people entry into His domain? Heaven does not keep people out from other countries, simply because they are from another country. So why should we? Two reason people give. Human trafficking and drug smuggling. But lets look at each topic below. (I am still learning this, this is not my final thought on this, and am honestly looking for feedback). I am a republican but have recently started questioning some aspects of republicanism. (which is something we should all do, don't just follow someone if what they are doing is morally questionable). Not saying trump is morally questionable, but perhaps refusing entry to foreigners is not the most christian thing we can do. Anyway, back to topic.

from my studies the united states seems to be the destination of most human sex trafficking, because it has wealthy customers. But a border wall would stop child trafficking into the united states. But the southern border is just one route traffickers take. So we have to analyze what percentage of human trafficking would stop with a 5 billion dollar investment. And could that money be better used in marketing campaigns teaching parents the dangers of leaving kids alone in public. Again most trafficking globally is into the united states, the united states is the number one consumer of child sex trafficking. Which is something I didn't know before this morning. (made me sad, that we are the empowering agent for human trafficking globally, pray for this!) Foreign countries realize they can get very rich (up to 30,000 dollars per victim) to traffick them into the US (to new york). The real way to stop this is to stop child prostitution somehow. But I agree a wall would stop human trafficking but I am not sure what percentage of the overall problem would be affected.

The Business of Human Trafficking ~ Trafficking Routes | Wide Angle | PBS
Human Trafficking Flow Map

Here is a briefing put out by department of homeland security on the need for a border, it mainly dealt with immigration, and smuggling. But not trafficking. They did not even mention a border wall would help human trafficking. So either they don't know the routes, or they don't think trafficking occurs there. Either way there is no evidence human trafficking occurs in between ports of entry (ports of entry are the border gates). I believe the latest arrests of human traffickers were either at the border checkpoint or within the united states. Most trafficking is an inflow from foreign countries, and they are exploited and controlled and threatened to deport. But some trafficking happens within the united states, and sent to other parts of US I presume. But they may be flown over seas. I don't really know.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Border-Briefing.pdf


So now that we realize that human trafficking has many importing spots, not just mexico. And there is no sufficient evidence that a wall would prevent even 1/4 of the southern border crossings. Now lets get into drug smuggling, will a wall prevent drug smuggling?


here are some quotes from governmental drug enforcement agency DEA 2018 drug assessment: (POE is a point of entry, or border gate not the miles of desert between the points of entry (POE))
"Most CBP fentanyl seizures occur at POE's in southern california"
"a small percentage of all heroin seized by CPB along the land border was between ports of entry"
"the SWB (south western border) remains the principal entry point for the majority of cocaine entering the united states, with most seizures occurring at POE's or the United States Border Patrol check points.
and another quote saying the majority of drugs come in passenger vehicles in POE's (points of entry.)
"DRUG SMUGGLING AND
TRANSPORTATION METHODS
Mexican TCOs transport the majority of illicit
drugs into the United States across the SWB
using a wide array of smuggling techniques.
The most common method employed by
these TCOs involves transporting illicit drugs
through U.S. POEs in passenger vehicles
with concealed compartments or commingled
with legitimate goods on tractor trailers."


these quotes and more studies can be found here:
https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2018-11/DIR-032-18 2018 NDTA final low resolution.pdf

In conclusion, human trafficking is a huge burden I have. Especially since the united states is the number one consumer of child sex slaves. What I think the real way to stop trafficking, is to treat low self esteem in highschools, Basically they need Jesus. Studies say that people of low self esteem or depression are targeted by other students in the trafficking ring. Kidnapping is not the main issue. It's a mental allurement through relationships, that they didn't have at home for example. Then once in they use their identity to stack up thousands of dollars in debt, then they have to work it off. Many times the students trafficked still stay at home. They don't even leave.

In fresno county a trafficking specialist says he as worked with cases at every highschool, and nearly every junior high in fresno county:

Police: ‘Every 16-year-old girl in Fresno’ has been targeted by sex trade recruiters

so being aware of the symptoms of trafficking is key:
Human Trafficking


ICE arrests nearly 2,000 human traffickers in 2016, identifies over 400 victims across the US

I just don't feel led making artificial barrier with the majority of Americans (majority are democrat), barriers that Jesus didn't make.

If there was a conservative party that was for immigration, and didn't focus on military quite as much, that party would have control of both houses and whitehouse. But because of partisanship we are forced to choose sides.

 

[Sanoy]

Some of these theological considerations seem inconsistent with Nehemiah.

 

[brinny]

please forgive me if this thread is already posted, let me know.

This week I had a vision where God told me immigration is good, and illegal immigration should be allowed. (I won't get into the details, accept to say that I don't believe Jesus would build a wall if He were president, I don't see Him refusing people entry into His domain? Heaven does not keep people out from other countries, simply because they are from another country. So why should we? Two reason people give. Human trafficking and drug smuggling. But lets look at each topic below. (I am still learning this, this is not my final thought on this, and am honestly looking for feedback). I am a republican but have recently started questioning some aspects of republicanism. (which is something we should all do, don't just follow someone if what they are doing is morally questionable). Not saying trump is morally questionable, but perhaps refusing entry to foreigners is not the most christian thing we can do. Anyway, back to topic.

from my studies the united states seems to be the destination of most human sex trafficking, because it has wealthy customers. But a border wall would stop child trafficking into the united states. But the southern border is just one route traffickers take. So we have to analyze what percentage of human trafficking would stop with a 5 billion dollar investment. And could that money be better used in marketing campaigns teaching parents the dangers of leaving kids alone in public. Again most trafficking globally is into the united states, the united states is the number one consumer of child sex trafficking. Which is something I didn't know before this morning. (made me sad, that we are the empowering agent for human trafficking globally, pray for this!) Foreign countries realize they can get very rich (up to 30,000 dollars per victim) to traffick them into the US (to new york). The real way to stop this is to stop child prostitution somehow. But I agree a wall would stop human trafficking but I am not sure what percentage of the overall problem would be affected.

The Business of Human Trafficking ~ Trafficking Routes | Wide Angle | PBS
Human Trafficking Flow Map

Here is a briefing put out by department of homeland security on the need for a border, it mainly dealt with immigration, and smuggling. But not trafficking. They did not even mention a border wall would help human trafficking. So either they don't know the routes, or they don't think trafficking occurs there. Either way there is no evidence human trafficking occurs in between ports of entry (ports of entry are the border gates). I believe the latest arrests of human traffickers were either at the border checkpoint or within the united states. Most trafficking is an inflow from foreign countries, and they are exploited and controlled and threatened to deport. But some trafficking happens within the united states, and sent to other parts of US I presume. But they may be flown over seas. I don't really know.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Border-Briefing.pdf


So now that we realize that human trafficking has many importing spots, not just mexico. And there is no sufficient evidence that a wall would prevent even 1/4 of the southern border crossings. Now lets get into drug smuggling, will a wall prevent drug smuggling?


here are some quotes from governmental drug enforcement agency DEA 2018 drug assessment: (POE is a point of entry, or border gate not the miles of desert between the points of entry (POE))
"Most CBP fentanyl seizures occur at POE's in southern california"
"a small percentage of all heroin seized by CPB along the land border was between ports of entry"
"the SWB (south western border) remains the principal entry point for the majority of cocaine entering the united states, with most seizures occurring at POE's or the United States Border Patrol check points.
and another quote saying the majority of drugs come in passenger vehicles in POE's (points of entry.)
"DRUG SMUGGLING AND
TRANSPORTATION METHODS
Mexican TCOs transport the majority of illicit
drugs into the United States across the SWB
using a wide array of smuggling techniques.
The most common method employed by
these TCOs involves transporting illicit drugs
through U.S. POEs in passenger vehicles
with concealed compartments or commingled
with legitimate goods on tractor trailers."


these quotes and more studies can be found here:
https://www.dea.gov/sites/default/files/2018-11/DIR-032-18 2018 NDTA final low resolution.pdf

Speaking of Jesus and walls, Jesus Himself is the Guardian in Revelation at the Gate of the wall spoken of in Revelation. Those attempting entry by any other means than HIM (illegally, so to speak) will be trounced and cast out.

This is written in Revelation.

Is it not?

In addition, God commanded Nehemiah to rebuild the Jerusalem wall, did He not? In fact, Nehemiah armed his men and himself because there was so many dead set against him rebuilding the wall.

Walls are not evil.
Those who necessitate them are.

 

[brinny]

This seems inconsistent with Nehemiah.

i was thinkin' the same thing.

 

[Go Braves]

Nope, it absolutely will not.

 

[createdtoworship]

duplicate

 

[createdtoworship]

Some of these theological considerations seem inconsistent with Nehemiah.

Speaking of Jesus and walls, Jesus Himself is the Guardian in Revelation at the Gate of the wall spoken of in Revelation. Those attempting entry by any other means than HIM (illegally, so to speak) will be trounced and cast out.

This is written in Revelation.

Is it not?

In addition, God commanded Nehemiah to rebuild the Jerusalem wall, did He not? In fact, Nehemiah armed his men and himself because there was so many dead set against him rebuilding the wall.

Walls are not evil.
Those who necessitate them are.

i was thinkin' the same thing.

Nope, it absolutely will not.

Like I said, Jesus would not build a wall to keep people out simply because they are from other countries. Imagine Jesus telling to the Jews, hey that there is a samaritan, a half breed. Don't share the gospel with them!" No, we don't see that in Jesus. The New Testament supercedes the letter of the law. But if you want to quote the old testament how about this verse: "You must not mistreat or oppress foreigners in any way. Remember, you yourselves were once foreigners in the land of Egypt." Exodus 22:21 NLT

 

[brinny]

Like I said, Jesus would not build a wall to keep people out simply because they are from other countries. The New Testament supercedes the letter of the law.

Revelation IS in the New Testament.

Is it not?

Walls are not evil.
Those who necessitate them are.

 

[Sanoy]

Like I said, Jesus would not build a wall to keep people out simply because they are from other countries. The New Testament supercedes the letter of the law.

Nehemiah isn't a law book, it was a necessity of life given the fact of Israels enemies. People from other countries were kept in the outer court of the temple. And New Jerusalem also has walls and open gates guarded by angels. I don't see anything theologically wrong with the concept of walls. But that is only a minor consideration in this thread.

 

[createdtoworship]

Nehemiah isn't a law book, it was a necessity of life given the fact of Israels enemies. People from other countries were kept in the outer court of the temple. And New Jerusalem also has walls and open gates guarded by angels. I don't see anything theologically wrong with the concept of walls. But that is only a minor consideration in this thread.

so according to that old testament theology, all immigration would be sinful, not just illegal immigration, yes?

 

[createdtoworship]

Revelation IS in the New Testament.

Is it not?

Walls are not evil.
Those who necessitate them are.

I am unfamiliar with the verse you are speaking of. Can you post it again. Even if there was a wall in revelation, I am sure it is not to keep people of different nationalites out.

 

[brinny]

I am unfamiliar with the verse you are speaking of. Can you post it again. Even if there was a wall in revelation, I am sure it is not to keep people of different nationalites out.

People of all nationalities are saved and INSIDE the wall in Revelation.

As it is written, God is not a respecter of persons.

It is also written in Revelation that the "lawless" will be on the outside of the wall.

As i stated in an earlier post, Jesus Himself speaks of being the Gatekeeper at the Gate of this wall.

I will post the verse(s) when i find them.

In the meantime, Jesus does not embrace "lawlessness" nor trespassers.

HE is the way through the Gate.

There is NONE other.

It is written, repeatedly.

Walls are not evil.
Those who necessitate them are.

 

[Sanoy]

so according to that old testament theology, all immigration would be sinful, not just illegal immigration, yes?

What? How does having walls suggest immigration was sinful. In any case, Israel took in many tribes besides the 12, like the Midianites and Kenites.

New Jerusalem is described in Revelation 21 ( I think Ezekiels temple is a rhetorical model, but in any case it's not new Jerusalem because it has a temple).

 

[createdtoworship]

What? How does having walls suggest immigration was sinful. In any case, Israel took in many tribes besides the 12, like the Midianites and Kenites.

New Jerusalem is described in Revelation 21 ( I think Ezekiels temple is a rhetorical model).

because in that verse the immigrants were only allowed in the outer courts.

 

[createdtoworship]

People of all nationalities are saved and INSIDE the wall in Revelation.

As it is written, God is not a respecter of persons.

It is also written in Revelation that the "lawless" will be on the outside of the wall.

As i stated in an earlier post, Jesus Himself speaks of being the Gatekeeper at the Gate of this wall.

I will post the verse(s) when i find them.

In the meantime, Jesus does not embrace "lawlessness" nor trespassers.

HE is the way through the Gate.

There is NONE other.

It is written, repeatedly.

Walls are not evil.
Those who necessitate them are.

I never said walls are evil, I said Jesus would not create a wall to keep people from other nationalites out. And you agree in this post. In revelation everyone is inside. But yet in our country, we make it illegal for everyone to be inside.

 

[brinny]

I never said walls are evil, I said Jesus would not create a wall to keep people from other nationalites out. And you agree in this post. In revelation everyone is inside. But yet in our country, we make it illegal for everyone to be inside.

What has your post got to do with any of my posts?

Walls are not evil.
Those who necessitate them are.
..
..
..
..

 

[Sanoy]

because in that verse the immigrants were only allowed in the outer courts.

I'd have to research why they were kept out*, but that has nothing to do with whether immigration was legal or not. If anything it implies that it was legal.

* It probably regards sacred space which is the function of the New Jerusalem gates.

 

[Albion]

If there is a big problem (flooding or disease, for instance) and we do something that significantly reduces it, would it be a good argument against that action to say what the Congressional Democrats are saying now about illegal immigration: "It wont stop every last bit of it, so lets instead do nothing about it"

 

[miamited]

Hi grady,

Question: What evidence do you have that those who pander in human trafficking come across our borders at unprotected locations?

I ask because I remember a couple of years ago a tractor trailer with a number of people stashed in the back was found behind a Walmart in Texas. It was believed that the people in the trailer were being trafficked into the U.S. However, my question is 'how' those people came to be in that trailer. Did the driver drive along the U.S. side of the border and pick them up? Was the truck filled with the people in Mexico and came across the border through a regularly manned and protected border checkpoint?

I believe that the later evidence was that the people were trucked across the border from Mexico at a legally maintained and protected border checkpoint. How is a wall intended to stop that?

Here's an article from Slate: Ten Dead After Sweltering Truck Full of People Found at Walmart Parking Lot in Texas

Notice the last statement made in the article. This happens all the time. Now, it doesn't explain 'what' happens all the time. Whether he's just talking about people being trafficked or that people are specifically trafficked in truck-trailer rigs.

So, my point is, that unless we have good evidence that the majority of human trafficking across the Mexican/American border is from people walking across the border with coyotes at unprotected locations, we can't really say that some wall will alleviate the problem.

I absolutely agree that human trafficking is a terrible way for anyone to make a living and such people should be dealt with severely by the law, but the 'how' to stop the problem may not be as simple as just building some wall. Also, $5B is just the first payment to start such border protection. The finished product costs have been estimated between $25B and $50B depending on who is figuring up the numbers. But no one has ever claimed that $5B will get the wall finished.

People are trafficked through our seaports in cargo containers. People are trafficked in semi and smaller trucks. The thing about human trafficking is that you have to keep the people generally in a controlled group. Allowing people to just freely walk across the border makes that more difficult. The other issue for human trafficking is that it is sometimes accomplished by what begins as a 'willing' participant. There have been accounts of people being given promises of great jobs and education and such that choose of their own free will to travel to the U.S. Then when they get to the people that they are supposed to check in with, they are held against their will and then forced into various positions against their will. But, such people start out applying for a tourist visa and just come here with what they believe to be open eyes and don't really appreciate the trap that is being set for them until it is too late.

Building a wall won't have the slightest affect on any of these methods of human trafficking.

So again, I'm just curious to look over your evidence that we have a substantial amount of human trafficking where the victims just walked across our border at some unprotected location. How about it?

As far as drugs. There is tons of evidence that a wall would have very little, if any, impact on the volume of narcotics that are brought into our nation. Keep in mind that our streets are awash with illegal narcotics and we aren't really finding many people walking across the border with a backpack full of cocaine or marijuana or heroin or hashish. That would absolutely mean that walking across the border with a handful of drugs is not how our streets become awash in illegal narcotics.

How is a wall going to stop something that isn't even happening?

The only thing that a wall is likely to do for us is to cut down on 'some', and many pundits would say that it's really just a drop in the bucket, of illegals coming into the U.S. Both Customs Border Patrol and ICE are on record that the majority of illegals in this country came here legally with tourist visas and then just never go back. A wall isn't going to have any effect on that demographic.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Arcangl86]

If there is a big problem (flooding or disease, for instance) and we do something that significantly reduces it, would it be a good argument against that action to say what the Congressional Democrats are saying now about illegal immigration: "It wont stop every last bit of it, so lets instead do nothing about it"

Congressional Democrats aren't saying that. What they are saying is "The Wall will address a minority of the problem. Let's see what other methds we could use instead to deal with the majority of the problem."