will a border wall stop human trafficking and drug smuggling?

[Der Alte]

I am unfamiliar with the verse you are speaking of. Can you post it again. Even if there was a wall in revelation, I am sure it is not to keep people of different nationalites out.

Do your honestly think that a wall at the US southern border is to keep different nationalities out? It is not about nationality. It is about robbery, murder, drug trafficking, human trafficking regardless of the nationality of the perpetrators. Read some articles by people who live along the border. Look up "rape tree" which is where those who lead immigrants into the US hang up an article of clothing of females they have raped.

 

[createdtoworship]

Do your honestly think that a wall at the US southern border is to keep different nationalities out? It is not about nationality. It is about robbery, murder, drug trafficking, human trafficking regardless of the nationality of the perpetrators. Read some articles by people who live along the border. Look up "rape tree" which is where those who lead immigrants into the US hang up an article of clothing of females they have raped.

Government documents arguing for a border wall does not mention trafficking as an issue that would be corrected by a wall See O.P. for document.

 

[createdtoworship]

I'd have to research why they were kept out*, but that has nothing to do with whether immigration was legal or not. If anything it implies that it was legal.

* It probably regards sacred space which is the function of the New Jerusalem gates.

Yeah in old testament Israel was forbidden to intermarriage with different cultures, but the new covenant supercedes that law.

 

[createdtoworship]

Do your honestly think that a wall at the US southern border is to keep different nationalities out? It is not about nationality. It is about robbery, murder, drug trafficking, human trafficking regardless of the nationality of the perpetrators. Read some articles by people who live along the border. Look up "rape tree" which is where those who lead immigrants into the US hang up an article of clothing of females they have raped.

the problem with rape, murder etc is a problem the united states has with any low income group or territory, it's not simply because of immigration. But it's because of poverty. So if we were a christian nation, that tithed a full ten percent, we could afford as a church to help the poor. There was study done that if every christian tithed 10%, that in two years every christian ministry, and para church ministry would be out of debt and fully funded. With God's blessing as a nation, we would be out of debt as a nation, and have many more jobs to offer people who came from across the border (hopefully skilled, but even to train those without skill). Offering Jobs to illegals is a major way to reduce the pay gap, and lift them out of poverty. MS13 is it's own issue. But the amount of MS13 migrants that come over the border are way less than 1%. And to say every immigrant is a criminal is committing a fallacy of poisoning the well. Many of them aren't and the ones who are, can be helped by employment. There are studies done in private prison systems that educating criminals while in prison reduces repeat offenders.

 

[Sanoy]

Yeah in old testament Israel was forbidden to intermarriage with different cultures, but the new covenant supercedes that law.

Well those are different things, intermarriage and immigration.

 

[createdtoworship]

Well those are different things, intermarriage and immigration.

are you saying that Israel allowed for immigration, as far as I know they annihilated any other cultures that were not Jewish, and if they were not annihilated they were slaves. But God's will was for them to root out all other nations, so that they themselves would inhabit the land. So saying that God allowed for immigration in the old testament, is not accurate. But like I said in the new testament all has changed. Jesus loves the little children of the world, Red and yellow black and white, they are precious in His site.

as the song goes, that we all sang in sunday school.

 

[createdtoworship]

There was a testimony before the senate today, Here is it. As far as I can see, He still didn't quote any governmental studies saying that a wall would reduce human trafficking, or drugs. Although He obviously wants a wall, but he didn't cite any sources to prove his point. Drugs come through ports of entry, and no official source has counted the amount of drugs that come between ports of entry because it's so small. I assume the same is for trafficking, but I don't know, thats why if you can find any resources, let me know. But right now I don't see a wall stopping human trafficking. Most of the trafficking is into the united states, and between the states, not out of the united states. See the OP for more info. But here is the testimony that was given today in support of the wall, FYI

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/McAleenan Testimony.pdf

 

[Sanoy]

are you saying that Israel allowed for immigration, as far as I know they annihilated any other cultures that were not Jewish, and if they were not annihilated they were slaves. But God's will was for them to root out all other nations, so that they themselves would inhabit the land. So saying that God allowed for immigration in the old testament, is not accurate. But like I said in the new testament all has changed. Jesus loves the little children of the world, Red and yellow black and white, they are precious in His site.

as the song goes, that we all sang in sunday school.

When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. 34You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Leviticus 19:33-34

 

[Der Alte]

Government documents arguing for a border wall does not mention trafficking as an issue that would be corrected by a wall See O.P. for document.

From your link.

But recently, use of this method [planes] has declined. Instead, many trafficking victims are arriving in Central or South America to enter the U.S. via Mexico.​

 

[createdtoworship]

When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. 34You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Leviticus 19:33-34

Yeah, it does have an allowance for immigration. That is great. And it continues in the new testament as well. But at the same time, you said nehemiah built a wall to keep foreigners out. So it depends on what type of person was coming in. I suspect it was just individuals who stumbled into the area of Israel. I don't think it was talking about caravans. In Joshua 9, instead of eradicating the gibeonites, they got deceived and the gibionites put on old clothes and had moldy bread and made it look like they were from a far country, and Israel made a peace treaty with them. But it was against God's will, they became a stumbling block to Israel later. God wanted all the nations that inhabited the promised land out, no slaves no survivors. So I don't think that text talked about a several thousand member caravan. But I could be wrong. I will have to read it again.

So back to the topic:
my only reservation on not doing a wall, would be that humans were trafficked over the spots that didn't have a fence,
but I can't find any solid studies saying that a wall would actually stop or severely hinder human trafficking.
and we know a wall won't stop drugs (see the O.P.)
so really the wall is just about immigration.
and as christians, is it really moral to say to other ethnicities, "hey I won't share my country with you?"
we teach are children to share, but we won't share.
about violent criminals coming over the border,
if we simply did trade school training or vocational training to illegals, they would not resort to crime.
a study done in prison systems found out that if they educated criminals in prison they would not be repeat offenders.
so many private prisons are doing that.
we need to do that with illegals. Give them some way to contribute to society.
Now at this point someone may say (we don't have enough jobs).
but if we did what God wanted, God would expand our borders, and create the needed Jobs.

 

[Der Alte]

the problem with rape, murder etc is a problem the united states has with any low income group or territory, it's not simply because of immigration. But it's because of poverty.

So we should be directing our resources to our own poor, most of whom have contributed to the resources instead of illegal immigrants who have not contributed anything.

begin

So if we were a christian nation, that tithed a full ten percent, we could afford as a church to help the poor. There was study done that if every christian tithed 10%, that in two years every christian ministry, and para church ministry would be out of debt and fully funded. With God's blessing as a nation, we would be out of debt as a nation, and have many more jobs to offer people who came from across the border (hopefully skilled, but even to train those without skill). Offering Jobs to illegals is a major way to reduce the pay gap, and lift them out of poverty. [While the poor of this country continue to go hungry, homeless etc. DA] MS13 is it's own issue. But the amount of MS13 migrants that come over the border are way less than 1%. [Source? DA] And to say every immigrant is a criminal is committing a fallacy of poisoning the well. Many of them aren't and the ones who are, can be helped by employment. There are studies done in private prison systems that educating criminals while in prison reduces repeat offenders.

end

But the recidivism rate for US state prisons is 76.6%. I'm reading that the US should not build a wall to augment the measures already in place, e.g. border patrol, helicopters, drones, dogs, electronic detection devices etc. because you think that the MS13 threat is less than 1%.
.....Who is poisoning the well? Nobody, to my knowledge, has said all illegal immigrants are criminals. But blocking additional security measures such as a wall/fence etc. because all illegal immigrants are not criminals is equally ridiculous.
.....I happen to belong to a group many of whom are among the needy. On average 22 disabled veterans take their own lives every day. They have to wait months to get the help they have earned. Illegals get help as soon as they cross the border. Not too long ago a VA optometrist refused to give me reading glasses. He told me to go buy some. And I don't see elected officials filibustering to get veterans what they have earned as they are for illegals.

 

[createdtoworship]

From your link.

But recently, use of this method [planes] has declined. Instead, many trafficking victims are arriving in Central or South America to enter the U.S. via Mexico.​

but they don't know the routes they take, I believe the majority of apprehensions regarding trafficking are not at the vast desert areas, but at gates of entry. And that is only a small amount of apprehensions, the majority of apprehensions are inside the united states already, most of the traffickers in america are citizens and prey on school children.

 

[Der Alte]

but they don't know the routes they take, I believe the majority of apprehensions regarding trafficking are not at the vast desert areas, but at gates of entry. And that is only a small amount of apprehensions, the majority of apprehensions are inside the united states already, most of the traffickers in america are citizens and prey on school children.

No zero none credible, verifiable evidence only unsupported opinion. Please see my previous post.
OBTW when I retired from the military I was a Military Policeman and after that I was a DOD investigator for 25 years.

 

[createdtoworship]

So we should be directing our resources to our own poor, most of whom have contributed to the resources instead of illegal immigrants who have not contributed anything.
So if we were a christian nation, that tithed a full ten percent, we could afford as a church to help the poor. There was study done that if every christian tithed 10%, that in two years every christian ministry, and para church ministry would be out of debt and fully funded. With God's blessing as a nation, we would be out of debt as a nation, and have many more jobs to offer people who came from across the border (hopefully skilled, but even to train those without skill). Offering Jobs to illegals is a major way to reduce the pay gap, and lift them out of poverty. [While the poor of this country continue to go hungry, homeless etc. DA] MS13 is it's own issue. But the amount of MS13 migrants that come over the border are way less than 1%. [Source? DA] And to say every immigrant is a criminal is committing a fallacy of poisoning the well. Many of them aren't and the ones who are, can be helped by employment. There are studies done in private prison systems that educating criminals while in prison reduces repeat offenders.
But the recidivism rate for US state prisons is 76.6%. I'm reading that the US should not build a wall to augment the measures already in place, e.g. border patrol, helicopters, drones, dogs, electronic detection devices etc. because you think that the MS13 threat is less than 1%.
.....Who is poisoning the well? Nobody, to my knowledge, has said all illegal immigrants are criminals. But blocking additional security measures such as a wall/fence etc. because all illegal immigrants are not criminals is equally ridiculous.
.....I happen to belong to a group many of whom are among the needy. On average 22 disabled veterans take their own lives every day. They have to wait months to get the help they have earned. Illegals get help as soon as they cross the border. Not too long ago a VA optometrist refused to give me reading glasses. He told me to go buy some. And I don't see elected officials filibustering to get veterans what they have earned as they are for illegals.

thank you for your service, my father was a sergeant major in the marine corps. But if we were a christian nation, all poverty would be greatly reduced, charities would be fully funded and out of debt, and vets would also benefit from a blessed nation.

and the prison statistic you use is state prisons, state prisons are not what I was talking about, I was talking about private prison systems, they are the ones who are actually caring about inmates and educating them. Federal and state prisons unfortunately don't, that I am aware of. Now private prisons tend to keep inmates longer, so recidivism rates are not an accurate measurement. The best measurement is to interview the inmates. Which they did in this video:

 

[Sanoy]

Yeah, it does have an allowance for immigration. That is great. And it continues in the new testament as well. But at the same time, you said nehemiah built a wall to keep foreigners out. So it depends on what type of person was coming in. I suspect it was just individuals who stumbled into the area of Israel. I don't think it was talking about caravans. In Joshua 9, instead of eradicating the gibeonites, they got deceived and the gibionites put on old clothes and had moldy bread and made it look like they were from a far country, and Israel made a peace treaty with them. But it was against God's will, they became a stumbling block to Israel later. God wanted all the nations that inhabited the promised land out, no slaves no survivors. So I don't think that text talked about a several thousand member caravan. But I could be wrong. I will have to read it again.

So back to the topic:
my only reservation on not doing a wall, would be that humans were trafficked over the spots that didn't have a fence,
but I can't find any solid studies saying that a wall would actually stop or severely hinder human trafficking.
and we know a wall won't stop drugs (see the O.P.)
so really the wall is just about immigration.
and as christians, is it really moral to say to other ethnicities, "hey I won't share my country with you?"
we teach are children to share, but we won't share.
about violent criminals coming over the border,
if we simply did trade school training or vocational training to illegals, they would not resort to crime.
a study done in prison systems found out that if they educated criminals in prison they would not be repeat offenders.
so many private prisons are doing that.
we need to do that with illegals. Give them some way to contribute to society.
Now at this point someone may say (we don't have enough jobs).
but if we did what God wanted, God would expand our borders, and create the needed Jobs.

You keep heaping onto me thing I never said. Nehemiah built a wall to keep enemies out. God also puts a wall around you, a hedge of protection (Job 1:10), and He speaks of a spiritual wall of fire to protect Jerusalem in Zechariah 2:5 If you want to consider this from a theological perspective it would be good to know the scriptures. Also in scripture it says to test every spirit, but you can't test this vision without knowing the relevant scripture first. I would continue to discuss the pro's and con's of building a wall but I would shelve the vision derived theology from discussion until you are prepared to test it.

 

[W2L]

Someone being abducted and forced into prostitution. Thats disturbing. Can you imagine their horror, and their pain and suffering?

 

[FireDragon76]

Revelation IS in the New Testament.

Is it not?

Walls are not evil.
Those who necessitate them are.

The gates of the New Jerusalem are never closed (Rev 21:25).

 

[createdtoworship]

You keep heaping onto me thing I never said. Nehemiah built a wall to keep enemies out. God also puts a wall around you, a hedge of protection (Job 1:10), and He speaks of a spiritual wall of fire to protect Jerusalem in Zechariah 2:5 If you want to consider this from a theological perspective it would be good to know the scriptures. Also in scripture it says to test every spirit, but you can't test this vision without knowing the relevant scripture first. I would continue to discuss the pro's and con's of building a wall but I would shelve the vision derived theology from discussion until you are prepared to test it.

not sure what you are saying here, if something I said was wrong please quote it. The context here is a wall to keep other ethnicities out, not enemies, so i am unsure where nehemiah comes in.

 

[createdtoworship]

Someone being abducted and forced into prostitution. Thats disturbing. Can you imagine their horror, and their pain and suffering?

yes the government does not know the routes that trafficking cartels take, most of them are comming into the country however not going out. They are not sure if they are coming in ports of entry , or in the vast miles between ports of entry, from what I can tell. But if you can quote a government study saying that a wall will reduce trafficking, I would love to read it.

 

[createdtoworship]

No zero none credible, verifiable evidence only unsupported opinion. Please see my previous post.
OBTW when I retired from the military I was a Military Policeman and after that I was a DOD investigator for 25 years.

I have searched about apprehensions in traficking, and I could not find any of them that were in between the ports of entry on the border, wall. Feel free to contradict me, but I can't both do my homework, and yours. I can search it again, but that would not convince you, unless you search it out as well. Thanks for the comment, and again thank you for your service, I do believe our own vets should be taken care of before any more immigrants are let in. But I believe we can have faith that God will honor and both provide for both parties, if we simply prayed and asked Him, and followed His will as a nation.