Wider-Hope Theories

[Ben johnson]

I'm not going along with the proof-text hunting anymore. I do not think Jesus ever said that. GJohn is not a good source for reconstructing the historical Jesus. It simply much to different from the synoptics. Jesus' short ministry cannot be reconciled with the drastically different pictures produced when comparing the synoptics with GJohn. The Gospel of john reflects later theological developments.

I find the Gospel of John perfectly harmonious with the rest of the New Testament---and John's letters also harmonious (notice how John warns against falling-from-salvation in 2:1:7-9). But you are right, to even discuss something, the participants must have common ground; if you reject parts of the Bible, then I cannot see how we can come to agreement on Biblical theology.

I would ask you: Do you believe God is a PERSON? Do you believe He fellowships with believers? Do you believe the Jeremiah passage I cited, that says "he who seeks God, finds God"? Then help me to understand how you accept that there can be a truly-seeking-Jewish-follower-of-God, who will not be led BY that sentient God to Jesus? If her heart truly loves God, what could maintain the veil to prevent her from receiving the Messiah?

I find that notion to be untenable. It virtually says, "Only my religious experiences are valid" and it seems highly insensitive and equivalent to a slap in the face to those of other faiths.

Christianity itself is a "slap in the face of all other religions"; If the CROSS is not the only path to God, then why did Christ die?

We get back to the foundational flaw between us---I accept the Bible, you do not; thus no common ground for discussion. Yet, if I encourage you to read texts (such as "Evidence that demands a Verdict" and "Answers for Tough Bible Questions" by Josh McDowell, and numerous other texts), you might be swayed to considering the validity of Scripture. I do not wish to offend you---but (and such an opening always causes "gritting of teeth"---sorry) ...it seems to me that you reject the passages of Scripture that contradict your positions; I would concern myself with the question, "which has the greater validity, SCRIPTURE, or YOUR POSITIONS"? No offense meant...

You are equating believing certain facts about the historical Jesus with "finding God".

If the historical facts about Jesus are accurate, then the two things are the same---if Jesus is the Messiah, "GOD-BECAME-MAN", as I have been contending with Scripture, then anyone truly seeking God will be given to Jesus (just as John recorded in chapter 6)...

If we are inclined to sin and incapable of not sinning then the game is rigged and it would be unjust for us to be punished for "sinning" here.

Firstly, I do not believe Hell is punishment---for punishment is meant to CORRECT; and once in Hell, there is no correction. Secondly, it is not SINNING that sends someone to Hell---the only disqualifier from Heaven, is UNBELIEF.

"He who does NOT believe in Jesus has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." "He who has disbelieved shall be condemned." Jn3:18, Mark16:16 Only DISBELIEF earns Hell; not sins. Sins only expose the unsaved heart, righteousness displays the saved heart. Cause-and-effect, not effect-and-cause.

Pelagianism asserts that "man has inherent goodness, and can become saved without Divine assistance" (thus obviating the Cross); the Bible asserts "apart from Him you can do nothing; salvation is RECEIVING Christ, which is the WORK OF GOD (not the work of the believer); the regeneration of the Spirit and the Son indwelling their hearts is what imputes the righteousness. Clear-as-mud?

The free will is not in the sinfulness (nor in the righteousness); for sinfulness follows the old nature, and righteousness follows the "Born Again" nature. Free will is in surrendering to Him, that HE indwells us with His righteousness; and because HE is IN CONTROL, we become righteousness. Our free-will-surrender to Him.

This belief that I hold to, is called, "LORDSHIP SALVATION"; and embraces, identically, "BORN AGAIN"; which is the essence of salvation.

The old nature dies, the new is born; "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old is passing away, behold new things have come." 1Cor5:17

 

[Ben johnson]

Posting it here would be fine by me

Thank you!

This is from my text on "OSAS"; it is not final draft, but please consider it copyrighted material...

To understand the Romans 9 passage, let us first come to understanding of the concept of “total depravity”. One of the primary posits of “Irresistible Grace” is that man is completely, totally, depraved; so much so, that he cannot ever even consider the possibility of accepting Christ as Lord and Savior. But does Scripture support that view? Consider Romans 1:18ff, “For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for GOD MADE IT EVIDENT TO THEM. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, SO THAT THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE. For even though THEY KNEW GOD, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, AND THEIR FOOLISH HEART WAS DARKENED. Professing to be wise they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity... they exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions... and because they did not acknowledge God any longer, God GAVE THEM OVER to a depraved mind”.

In Romans 1 it says very clearly and undeniably that God is revealed to all men. It is then up to each to accept Him or reject Him. Clearly, although “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, there are NONE righteous” (Romans 3---this is actually not a theological dictate, is is a LAMENTATION, exageration; and it is not even Paul's words, he is quoting Psalm14 & 53, which are ALSO exagerated lamentations; according to Jeremiah 29:11-14, mankind CAN seek God!), God reveals Himself to each person, in enough measure that the person HAS the ability to choose. Thus the “They are without excuse”. It also undeniably says that God, because of their conscious rejection of Him and embracement of “the lie”, gives them over to a depraved mind. Does this mean that their hardened hearts are their own fault? Consider Hebrews 3:13, “Lest any of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin”. The Greek for “hardened” here is “skleruno”, which means “made stubborn or obstinate”. The same word as used in Romans 9:18; which, apparently indicates that God does the “hardening and softening”, but in context with Romans 1, we gain the deeper understanding that the hardening is a result of their conscious choice (their heart darkened because they chose “the lie”), and the “God hardens whom He desires” is understood to mean that He gives over to a base and depraved mind those who reject Him.

Those who WILL NOT believe, do not believe because they don't WANT to; "men loved the darkness rather than the light, for the light would expose their evil deeds." Jn3:19-21 "You cannot understand because you ...are of your father the devil and you WANT to do his evil desires." Jn8:43

The expression of, "God has mercy on whom He will, and compassion on whom He will" does not contradict "mercy and compassion on THEY WHO BELIEVE"; so too "it depends not on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy". This supported by verses such as John6:40, where "the WILL of GOD is for men to see Jesus, believe, and be saved". "WILL", is "THELEMA-DESIRE"; in Rom9:19 is a rare use of the word, "BOULEMA-DECREE"---but you will notice that Paul uses it argumentively, as SAID by the READER and not by God or Paul! "Who can resist God's DECREE?" Where in this does it say "He decrees anyone's salvation? It does not.

Technically, in Exodus 10:1 it reads “made heavy”, and verses 10:20, 27, 11:10 and 14:8 mean “made strong”. Was Pharaoh a helpless pawn in the machinations of an absolutely-controlling-God? Or was his “hardening” because of his choice to “embrace the lie”? It is theologically sound to understand the latter. God “hardens” people in the sense that He honors their choice to reject Him and gives them over to a base and depraved mind. There is also the SEMITIC VIEW---ascribing to God things God has not done; Exodus 9:34-35 says "Pharaoh HARDENED HIS OWN HEART"; yet 10:1, the VERY NEXT VERSE, says "GOD did it".

Now, if God does not predestine, then what of the passage in Romans 9 that speaks of “pottery”? It clearly says that some are created “for honor”, and some “for common”. Let us assume that they are on the potter’s wheel because of their choice to submit to Him---they are already saved (as we have already established in this discourse). 1Corinthians 12:4ff tells us that God uses each of us as He chooses, different parts of the body, for the common good, as He chooses. Some for honor, some for common. Perfect harmony, the clay submits to the potter to use as He wills. There is a passage in 2Tim2, where "time" (honor) seems to mean "saved" and "atimia" (dishonor) seems to indicate unsaved; but in Romans, the THREE terms (honor, dishonor/common, and WRATH-FOR-DESTRUCTION) seem to indicate "atimia" here are common-but-saved. This is also the "take" of the translators of the NASV Bible...

Verse Romans 9:23, the “endured with patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction”? What caused them to BE “vessels of wrath”, and to BE “prepared for destruction”? Consider the parable of Matthew 13:24ff; the landowner said “Allow the tares (weeds, grass) to grow with the wheat, but in the harvest the wheat will be gathered and the weeds burned.” Thus the weeds were “endured with patience”, PERFECTLY in harmony with 2Peter3:9! The un-submitted vessels-of-clay, He endures for now, but their rebellious state assures their future destruction (Matt13:30,41-42, 25:32,41; Rom2:5). Is there anything in this passage that indicates God overrides our will to salvation? No. Is there anything in this passage that indicates God honors free will? Consider 9:32 “They did not achieve righteousness, because they pursued it by works rather than faith”. Clearly they made the wrong choice. Verse 33 demonstrates that He was a stumbling stone because they did not believe. Continuing in chapter 10, “They have (wrong) zeal for God; not knowing about God’s righteousness, seeking to establish their own, they did not submit themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” Belief is a choice, very clearly written in this passage. It is not predestined.

Finally---"Jacob I loved, Esau I hated"; many believe this is "Jacob-as-a-PEOPLE", and "Esau-PEOPLE"; yet in either case, it does not deny that God's consideration is founded on our belief; even before they were born, God knew them.