Wicca - Good or Evil

[Volos]

Not hardly. My Gods and Goddesses don't have an ego complex like yours does.

to be fair the Christian God does not have an ego complex. The men who made up the bible certainly did and the Christians Gods modern followers often do have such a complex.

 

[Lifesaver]

Wiccans/Pagans/Satanists/Buddhists/Etc. do not recruit, proselytize, or evangelize to gain members. Christianity, on the other hand, is famous for trying to convert and recruit members. We pretty much stay to ourselves and only discuss our beliefs when prompted. I don't go handing out literature on Wicca or Paganism and tell people to join us if they want to live eternally.

Someone's lied to you, sacred_stone...
I can go to a newspaper stand right now and buy a magazine called "Witch", written for pre-teen girls.
I can also easily go to a bookstore and choose from a WIDE selection of books dealing with Pagan mysticism and magick, from "casting loves spells" to "foretelling the future"

Now, this may come as a shock to you, but almost every non-christian I know was either raised in a Christian home, or converted to Christianity at some point in their childhood or teen years.

Well, seeing is we all live in predominantly Christian countries, that is to be expected, isn't it? Where else would they come from?

They didn't de-convert because they encountered a Wiccan somewhere. They turned away from Christianity because of other Christians. So as you see, it's not us who are doing the leading away from Christianity. It's other Christians.

Sadly, the faith and the logic of so many Christians is such that they will think Jesus is not God because other Christians don't behave in a certain way.

Are you so limited in mental capacity that you lack the ability to comprehend concepts regarding more than one deity?

No, I can perfectly imagine such a reality with many gods. However, even in such a scenario there must be one unchangeable Creator.

You are basing your belief (that your god is the only "correct" one and that everyone else is wrong and evil) on a book and faith. I base my beliefs on the same thing. So how do we know whose right and whose wrong? We don't.

I base my beliefs on a book, on historical data and on reason.
What I see among many Pagans is a distinct irrationalism, that is, a disdain for rational thought and direct analysis of the questions being dealt with, for they could prove their beliefs to be false.
Many place feelings over logic when trying to discover things about reality. Needless to say, feelings are not very helpful at such task, especially when they are the only judge.

Not hardly. My Gods and Goddesses don't have an ego complex like yours does.

There is only one God, sacred_stone. And if the beings you believe in tolerate error and wrongness, then they are not Him, whose perfection makes it impossible for sin to coexist with it.

 

[Cerridwen]

Hey~

Someone's lied to you, sacred_stone...
I can go to a newspaper stand right now and buy a magazine called "Witch", written for pre-teen girls.
I can also easily go to a bookstore and choose from a WIDE selection of books dealing with Pagan mysticism and magick, from "casting loves spells" to "foretelling the future"

So what! I can go buy a magazine on cutting hair, having babies, wrestling, etc., etc., that doesn't mean the publishers are expecting me to take up those specific activities. WE DO NOT recruit anyone. No one is EVER handed some lie-filled tract (a la Jack Chick) about how Wicca or any other pagan religion is the only 'true' religion. Just because you can buy books on a subject doesn't mean you're being recruited. No one forces anybody to pick up those books & read them, no one who's Pagan or Wiccan goes around door to door "soul-winning". Back up & think before you accuse someone of believing lies, sir.

No, I can perfectly imagine such a reality with many gods. However, even in such a scenario there must be one unchangeable Creator.

Why?

I base my beliefs on a book, on historical data and on reason.

What "historical data"?

What I see among many Pagans is a distinct irrationalism, that is, a disdain for rational thought and direct analysis of the questions being dealt with, for they could prove their beliefs to be false.

Funny, my "rational thought & direct analysis" is precisely what helped me make the decision to leave Christianity.

Many place feelings over logic when trying to discover things about reality. Needless to say, feelings are not very helpful at such task, especially when they are the only judge.

Feelings are the ONLY thing one can base faith on, dear. That's why it's called FAITH.

There is only one God, sacred_stone. And if the beings you believe in tolerate error and wrongness, then they are not Him, whose perfection makes it impossible for sin to coexist with it.

There is one Ultimate, yes, and there are many paths to it, and S/He has many names. If your idea of God was so "perfect", there wouldn't be any sin in the first place.

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

 

[Lifesaver]

By the same token, if God doesn't exist, He doesn't exist for everyone; if Jesus was never the Christ, then he wasn't the Christ for anyone.

Exactly, challenger. As surprising as this may be to you, many Pagans are not able to accept this simple truth.
Even in the Bible we read that if Jesus did not ressurect, if the fact of the resurrection didn't happen, then faith in Him is useless.
The truth, reality, fact, these don't depend on our feelings.

 

[Lifesaver]

So what! I can go buy a magazine on cutting hair, having babies, wrestling, etc., etc., that doesn't mean the publishers are expecting me to take up those specific activities. WE DO NOT recruit anyone. No one is EVER handed some lie-filled tract (a la Jack Chick) about how Wicca or any other pagan religion is the only 'true' religion. Just because you can buy books on a subject doesn't mean you're being recruited. No one forces anybody to pick up those books & read them, no one who's Pagan or Wiccan goes around door to door "soul-winning". Back up & think before you accuse someone of believing lies, sir.

If that's not trying to bring people to your religion, I don't know what it is.

Why?

Every effect has a cause, and this cause is probably the effect of a cause prior to it. It's absurd to think that causes and effects can be traced back to eternity, without there being a first cause.
There must be a first, immobile cause for all that happens.
It is God.

What "historical data"?

Archeological findings that show that many cities and people thought to be "invented" by the Jews really existed, the gospels, which are very straightforward in their narration, and the fact that Christianity was a religion that had everything to die out if its claims were not true.

Funny, my "rational thought & direct analysis" is precisely what helped me make the decision to leave Christianity.

Oh, and it was rational thought which led you to believe in "many truths", was it?
And it is also rational thought that makes you constantly dodge the fundamental question: which will you stick to: logic or your beliefs?
But don't worry. After having this discussion twice without an answer, I won't try to start it again, nor do I expect you to answer.

Feelings are the ONLY thing one can base faith on, dear. That's why it's called FAITH.

Speak for yourself...

There is one Ultimate, yes, and there are many paths to it, and S/He has many names. If your idea of God was so "perfect", there wouldn't be any sin in the first place.

Not at all. The freedom to deny God, the freedom to not do good, is something good in itself.
God cannot be blamed for our choices, or the rebellion of certain angels.

 

[leewood1987]

content

 

[ravenwolf]

If that's not trying to bring people to your religion, I don't know what it is.

.....ok....just becuase there are books and magazines about Wicca does not mean that we are trying to bring people to o ur religion. There are books out there on virtually any religion and every subject you can think of. This is not the same as trying to convert people...trying to convert someone is something that is done for example..handing out tracts..witnessing to people , etc. The fact that their are books about Wicca has nothing to do with recruiting poeple!!! If that is not something you can grasp than you are not as logical as you claim to be.

Oh, and it was rational thought which led you to believe in "many truths", was it?
And it is also rational thought that makes you constantly dodge the fundamental question: which will you stick to: logic or your beliefs?
But don't worry. After having this discussion twice without an answer, I won't try to start it again, nor do I expect you to answer.

I think she has answered this question on NUMEROUS occasions..just because it is not the answer YOU want to hear does not mean she didnt answer it.
~ravenwolf

 

[Lifesaver]

.....ok....just becuase there are books and magazines about Wicca does not mean that we are trying to bring people to o ur religion. There are books out there on virtually any religion and every subject you can think of. This is not the same as trying to convert people...trying to convert someone is something that is done for example..handing out tracts..witnessing to people , etc. The fact that their are books about Wicca has nothing to do with recruiting poeple!!! If that is not something you can grasp than you are not as logical as you claim to be.

Sorry, ravenwolf, but you are being very naive. Just because the usual Wiccan does not try to convince others of their religion (though they'll be happy to bring someone already leaning in their direction), that does not mean Wicca is not spread as well.
There are many authors who make a living out of spreading it.
If there was no such thing, there wouldn't even be a Wiccan religion. Every Pagan would have their own personal, invented beliefs. But this is not the case.

I think she has answered this question on NUMEROUS occasions..just because it is not the answer YOU want to hear does not mean she didnt answer it.

You think so, but she hasn't.
In the last time I asked, she tried to bring in the theory of parallel universes to evade answering. I showed how that didn't make the question any less answerable.
You did answer this same question, and admitted, rightly, that there is a reality which is independent of our beliefs.

 

[Lifesaver]

I'm quite delighted for having received your insults and curse, Leewood. It means I must be doing something right, for if a Pagan was finding my beliefs great and loved them, then I would be exposing Christianity very badly.
A true Pagan, a true Wiccan, can't like my Christian beliefs.

And the fact that you claim to believe in what's good, and then proceed to curse (to curse is to wish a bad thing to someone) me to Hell reassures me that what you call good is not good at all.

However, I am saddened that you are so far from Christianity, and I wonder if you'll ever change your beliefs.

 

[ravenwolf]

Sorry, ravenwolf, but you are being very naive. Just because the usual Wiccan does not try to convince others of their religion (though they'll be happy to bring someone already leaning in their direction), that does not mean Wicca is not spread as well.
There are many authors who make a living out of spreading it.
If there was no such thing, there wouldn't even be a Wiccan religion. Every Pagan would have their own personal, invented beliefs. But this is not the case

Yes indeed without their being open knowledge of our beliefes and people to teach, our religion would not have grown...the point here is that just becuase the information about Wicca is available it is NOT converting....that is the point. And who are you to call me naive????? So you think im naive becuase i am saying Wiccans dont convert??? How saying something that is the palin truth can be naive gets me

And the fact that you claim to believe in what's good, and then proceed to curse (to curse is to wish a bad thing to someone) me to Hell reassures me that what you call good is not good at all.

Ok first of all we are all human and are not perfect..second of all, since you say that because someone curses that makes their beliefs false andf not good at all...well than I suppose if i were to go with that assumtion, ALL religions would be bad including Christianity considering there are Christians that curse as well. I guess that makes Christianitynot so good either.
~ravenwolf

 

[ravenwolf]

Sorry, ravenwolf, but you are being very naive. Just because the usual Wiccan does not try to convince others of their religion (though they'll be happy to bring someone already leaning in their direction), that does not mean Wicca is not spread as well.
There are many authors who make a living out of spreading it.
If there was no such thing, there wouldn't even be a Wiccan religion. Every Pagan would have their own personal, invented beliefs. But this is not the case

Yes indeed without their being open knowledge of our beliefes and people to teach, our religion would not have grown...the point here is that just becuase the information about Wicca is available it is NOT converting....that is the point. And who are you to call me naive????? So you think im naive becuase i am saying Wiccans dont convert??? How saying something that is the palin truth can be naive gets me

And the fact that you claim to believe in what's good, and then proceed to curse (to curse is to wish a bad thing to someone) me to Hell reassures me that what you call good is not good at all.

Ok first of all we are all human and are not perfect..second of all, since you say that because someone curses that makes their beliefs false andf not good at all...well than I suppose if i were to go with that assumtion, ALL religions would be bad including Christianity considering there are Christians that curse as well. I guess that makes Christianitynot so good either.
~ravenwolf

 

[Lifesaver]

Yes indeed without their being open knowledge of our beliefes and people to teach, our religion would not have grown...the point here is that just becuase the information about Wicca is available it is NOT converting.

The same happens with Christianity. We have open knowledge and people who teach it.
I don't see why you make such a big deal of "no proselytizing". We agree that the usual Christian is more keen on teaching Christianity than the usual Wiccan is keen on teaching Wicca. It's only a question of quantity, nothing else.

Ok first of all we are all human and are not perfect..second of all, since you say that because someone curses that makes their beliefs false andf not good at all...well than I suppose if i were to go with that assumtion, ALL religions would be bad including Christianity considering there are Christians that curse as well. I guess that makes Christianitynot so good either.

You didn't understand me. If someone tells me that their beliefs are good, and then wish that I spend an eternity of suffering, it really shows that they either reject their beliefs entirely, or that their beliefs, which they call good, are not good at all.
Someone who loves goodness would never wish for the damnation of any person.

 

[ravenwolf]

The same happens with Christianity. We have open knowledge and people who teach it.
I don't see why you make such a big deal of "no proselytizing". We agree that the usual Christian is more keen on teaching Christianity than the usual Wiccan is keen on teaching Wicca. It's only a question of quantity, nothing else.

Qauntity has nothing to do with it. When Christian go aroung knocking on peopels doors and handin gthem tracts or go aroung preaching to ppeople regardless if they were asked about there beliefs or not..that is trying to convert people. Wiccans do not go around preaching about their beliefs to peoplle the only tim eit is ever discussed is when someone asked specifically that they want to know what Wicca is...that is not trying to convert , that is simply answering a question. period.

You didn't understand me. If someone tells me that their beliefs are good, and then wish that I spend an eternity of suffering, it really shows that they either reject their beliefs entirely, or that their beliefs, which they call good, are not good at all.
Someone who loves goodness would never wish for the damnation of any person.

I understood you perfectly well. Christians do the same thing..they say they are good and righteous yet they condemn anyone not of their faith to burn in hell. So by what you just said above, then the Christain religion is not good because they curse others.
~ravenwolf

 

[Lifesaver]

Qauntity has nothing to do with it. When Christian go aroung knocking on peopels doors and handin gthem tracts or go aroung preaching to ppeople regardless if they were asked about there beliefs or not..that is trying to convert people. Wiccans do not go around preaching about their beliefs to peoplle

Yes they do. On magazines and books, as I mentioned. I didn't ask to see the magazines postered all over the newspaper stand, nor to see the numerous spell-casting books on display in the book shop. And yet I did.

I understood you perfectly well. Christians do the same thing..they say they are good and righteous yet they condemn anyone not of their faith to burn in hell. So by what you just said above, then the Christain religion is not good because they curse others.

No, this is completely different.
No Christian wants someone to go to Hell. On the contrary, we hate to think that so many people may die having rejected God, and will therefore spend eternity separated from Him.
That is exactly why we try to convert people. If we wanted people to go to Hell (which Leewood specifically wished I did), we wouldn't be trying to bring non-Christians into the faith.

 

[ravenwolf]

Yes they do. On magazines and books, as I mentioned. I didn't ask to see the magazines postered all over the newspaper stand, nor to see the numerous spell-casting books on display in the book shop. And yet I did.

it is not converting. You have the decision of whether or not you will actually read tyhose magizines or books..no one is waving them in your facing and tellin gyou to become a WIccan. Just because you didnt ask to see them means nothing...wiccan author and publishers have the same right to sell there products just as much as anyone else.

No, this is completely different.
No Christian wants someone to go to Hell. On the contrary, we hate to think that so many people may die having rejected God, and will therefore spend eternity separated from Him.
That is exactly why we try to convert people. If we wanted people to go to Hell (which Leewood specifically wished I did), we wouldn't be trying to bring non-Christians into the faith.

No it is exactly the same!!! If you dont become a CHristian you are going to hell...it IS the same
~ravenwolf

 

[Lifesaver]

it is not converting. You have the decision of whether or not you will actually read tyhose magizines or books..no one is waving them in your facing and tellin gyou to become a WIccan. Just because you didnt ask to see them means nothing...wiccan author and publishers have the same right to sell there products just as much as anyone else.

Good. And Christians have the right to talk to people too.
If you want to argue rights, none of the two groups is breaking the law or violating someone's rights.

No it is exactly the same!!! If you dont become a CHristian you are going to hell...it IS the same

Let me put it on simpler terms:
It is different to say "I think many people will go to Hell" than to say "I want many people to go to Hell"
The Christian thinks "many people will go to Hell", but at the same time "I don't want many people to go to Hell", and that's why we try to bring others to the faith.
Leewood, quite on the contrary, thinks that no-one will go to Hell (because he doesn't believe in Hell), but at the same time wishes that I will go there.
Even though he doesn't believe in this eternal suffering, he wishes that it would happen to me.

It's the exact opposite of the Christian position.

 

[Cerridwen]

If that's not trying to bring people to your religion, I don't know what it is.

Well then, you're not as smart as you'd like for us to think you are. Going door to door handing out tracts-that's trying to bring people to your religion. Telling everyone who will listen (& those who couldn't care less) that they are going to burn in a fictional "hell" because they don't swallow your dogma-that's trying to bring people to your religion. There are books available for study of art, rapelling, serial killers. Does that mean that the writers of those books are "recruting" people to start doing those things? NO. It's pretty pathetic if you are able to be that swayed by a book on a shelf. Again, NOBODY forces ANYBODY to read these books. They are there IF there is an interest. In Wicca, we are sorely discouraged from proselytizing. It is our belief that people will come to their paths on their own. In my tradition, & in most traditional Wicca, any student must study for at least a year and a day before they can be considered Wiccan, to make sure that the path is really for them.

Every effect has a cause, and this cause is probably the effect of a cause prior to it. It's absurd to think that causes and effects can be traced back to eternity, without there being a first cause.
There must be a first, immobile cause for all that happens. It is God.

Maybe. Maybe not. Because I am not an Atheist, I do believe that we have a Creator....but still...who are you to say? Which came first? The chicken or the egg?

Archeological findings that show that many cities and people thought to be "invented" by the Jews really existed, the gospels, which are very straightforward in their narration, and the fact that Christianity was a religion that had everything to die out if its claims were not true.

Cities don't prove that the Catholic church is completely right. So what if the scriptures are straightforward. All that shows is that the writers were good at what they did. No proof that they were actually written-or even inspired by- God. There were many religions before Christianity, there is no proof that Catholicism suddenly turned out to be the only "real" one. Obviously there is as much truth to the surviving belief systems as there is to Christianity, otherwise, they wouldn't still exist.

Oh, and it was rational thought which led you to believe in "many truths", was it?

Yes. We'd have to be mighty arrogant to presume that as big as this universe is, & as big as the Divine is, that we would have the authority to box into one little HUMAN invented religious box.

And it is also rational thought that makes you constantly dodge the fundamental question: which will you stick to: logic or your beliefs?

I have yet to dodge this question, you just don't like my answers. I have told you repeatedly, my beliefs are logical. I cannot believe in something I haven't seen proof of. I have seen, talked to, & felt my Gods. I know that They are there, & I know that this is my path to Them. Of course there is a reality outside of religion. I've stated that before. There is a reality that can be systematically proven through science & reasoning, that most people with half a brain can basically agree on. The fact that we all have the same internal organs, the fact that diseases are caused by pathogens (not demons)...these are facts that can be proven through empirical evidence. These are part of the reality that we live in as human beings. Religion is a different thing entirely, because I cannot show you proof that my Gods are real without you automatically chocking it up to the work of "Satan". Where you and I differ so much though, is that I don't believe what you believe, but I don't think you should be "erradicated" as you've said of my religion. I believe your religion holds truth for you, just as mine holds truth for me, and I don't presume to know what God thinks, feels, or wants by telling you that you are wrong. Again, there are MANY PATHS TO THE DIVINE, & none of them is better than the other. Our spiritual walks are between ourselves & the Divine.

Speak for yourself...

Of course. I would never presume to speak for another with any authority. However, that doesn't change the meaning of faith or one's religious feelings.

Not at all. The freedom to deny God, the freedom to not do good, is something good in itself.

I don't think so. If your version of God was such a loving & all-powerful God, He would never have created evil at all. If He loved His people so much & desired nothing more than their pure love & worship, he wouldn't have made them the way that they are.

God cannot be blamed for our choices, or the rebellion of certain angels.

Of course He can! If He's all-knowing & all that jazz, He already knows the choices we're going to make before we make them, and since He's the one who created us & made us what we are, He's the one who is making us make those choices. And yep, since He created "certain angels", He's the one who made "certain angels" rebel. If He has all this power, why not just kill the "certain angel" to begin with? Why let that "certain angel" have so much power? What's the point? To play cruel tricks on us poor, stupid, human sheep? Heck, why even give that "certain angel" the ability to rebel in the first place? That just doesn't paint a very pretty-or logical-picture of your version of God. We, on the other hand, believe that the Divine isn't like that. We believe that the Divine gave us brains & choice for a reason-personal responsibility. People have to learn to keep their balance. When they get out of balance, they do bad things. When they blame their screw-ups on a demi-god, they do bad things. When they make mistakes, but actually take responsibility for their own actions, they learn, & that is a good thing.

Love & Blessings, Cerridwen*

 

[ravenwolf]

Good. And Christians have the right to talk to people too.
If you want to argue rights, none of the two groups is breaking the law or violating someone's rights.

You have quite a habit of completely changing the subject . Thats not even what the argument was about!!! I didnt say anything about Christians not ahving the right to sell their religion, they have every right to. The argument stared because you stated that Wiccans try to convert people..the point that I was making was that Wiccans do not convert....i said nothing about Christians not having the right to...i simply used it to compare what is the act of converting and what isn't.
~ravenwolf

 

[Lifesaver]

Well then, you're not as smart as you'd like for us to think you are. Going door to door handing out tracts-that's trying to bring people to your religion. Telling everyone who will listen (& those who couldn't care less) that they are going to burn in a fictional "hell" because they don't swallow your dogma-that's trying to bring people to your religion.

Just as I'm not forced to read the books, the magazines and watch the TV shows, you are not forced to let anyone into your house, to read the tracts, or to give any attention to the street preacher.
Many people like to make it seem that Christianity is somehow forced on them, when it clearly isn't.

Obviously there is as much truth to the surviving belief systems as there is to Christianity, otherwise, they wouldn't still exist.

This is fallacious. It's like saying Creationism and Evolution have as much truth, because they have both survived until today.

Yes. We'd have to be mighty arrogant to presume that as big as this universe is, & as big as the Divine is, that we would have the authority to box into one little HUMAN invented religious box.

It's logic, Cerridwen. Not a human invention.

I have seen, talked to, & felt my Gods. I know that They are there, & I know that this is my path to Them. Of course there is a reality outside of religion.

Again, there are MANY PATHS TO THE DIVINE, & none of them is better than the other.

WHenever you affirm something, Cerridwen, you deny its negation, whether you like it or not.
So, when you say "there are many paths to the Divine", you are actively saying that it is false that "Jesus Christ is the only path".
Stop this "truth for me, truth for you" talk, because it's completely nonsensical.
We disagree, therefore we think each other is wrong. It's a simple logical conclusion, but you seem too reluctant to make it.
Even though you deny Christianity (and many other religions) with what you say about the gods, paths, magic, you seem to have some problem with saying explicitly "Christianity is false".
You can't, at the same time, say "there are many paths" and "Catholicism is true". This is contradictory. I wish you would realize that.

Of course. I would never presume to speak for another with any authority. However, that doesn't change the meaning of faith or one's religious feelings.

And speaking for myself: my faith is not based on feelings.

I don't think so. If your version of God was such a loving & all-powerful God, He would never have created evil at all.

God didn't create evil.

If He loved His people so much & desired nothing more than their pure love & worship, he wouldn't have made them the way that they are.

It is exactly because He loves us that He gave us free will. Only with the ability to reject someone can we truly love them.

Of course He can! If He's all-knowing & all that jazz, He already knows the choices we're going to make before we make them, and since He's the one who created us & made us what we are, He's the one who is making us make those choices.

Not at all. His knowledge is contingent to our choices, not the other way around.
He knows what we will do BECAUSE we will do it. We don't do something because God knows we'll do it.

And yep, since He created "certain angels", He's the one who made "certain angels" rebel. If He has all this power, why not just kill the "certain angel" to begin with?

It would be evil.

Why let that "certain angel" have so much power? What's the point? To play cruel tricks on us poor, stupid, human sheep? Heck, why even give that "certain angel" the ability to rebel in the first place?

The devil doesn't have much power at all. He is powerless when compared to God.
Why give the angels the ability to rebel? Do you think giving someone freedom is evil?

We, on the other hand, believe that the Divine isn't like that. We believe that the Divine gave us brains & choice for a reason-personal responsibility. People have to learn to keep their balance. When they get out of balance, they do bad things. When they blame their screw-ups on a demi-god, they do bad things. When they make mistakes, but actually take responsibility for their own actions, they learn, & that is a good thing.

What balance is this?

 

[Lifesaver]

the point that I was making was that Wiccans do not convert.

And you are yet to prove this point, for so far we've only estabilished that Christians try to convert with more intensity than Wiccans, but these are very active as well, writing books, magazines, making web-sites, etc.