Wicca:Good Or Bad Final Answers

[Havoc]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
[BOkay, then every person accused of using black magic ever in the world to kill or hurt people are witches then. That's a lot of evidience I had not even counted on. [/B]

That's not even worthy of a reply. Is every person that ever believed in a single God a Christian?

 

[Havoc]

Originally posted by Angel75
Well I went to my first wiccan event (samhain) this past weekend and heard much more love than i have any sunday morning. My 6 yr old loved it, and we will be going back for yule
-snip-
Anyway as to the evilness of wicca...Why do you focus on this religion. most of the info posted on wiccans just shows your ignorance. If you want to learn about them, go to the source. not the biased christian junk.

btw welcome Isis

Hi Angel75:

Glad to hear you enjoyed yourself. Samhain is one of our biggest celebrations but the other sabbats are only marginally less enjoyable. Yule should be very familiar to your child since most of secular and Christian traditions are taken from Pagan sources, mistletoe, Christmas trees, Santa Claus, feasting, etc.

The reason that Christians focus on this religion stems back from the Burning times. In the late middle ages and on up to the 1600's there weren't any Witches left, for all intents and purposes. The late middle ages were an extremely miserable time to be alive. In order to explain why God would allow such a state of misery on earth the Church invented the classic Christian version of the Witch as a satan worshipper and spreader of disease and curses. This took the attention away from the real culprits, the Church and the Nobility, and put it on women and men who were unfortunate enough to be widowed, or live alone, or try to help the sick with herbs and folk medicine. The populace was given an enemy to blame for their misery, and the Church was absolved of all social responsibility for the poverty and desperation of the people.

Nowadays the Christian Church continues to vilify Witches to satisfy their need for an enemy. Witches are constantly blamed for what is wrong with the world. Dissention in the church, divorce and marital strife among Christians, Teenage rebellion, all of these are blamed on us by Fundies. It's much easier to just blame Witches, and Demons (who we call up lol) than it is to actually do something about the problems.

There is light however, at the end of the tunnel. Fundamentalism is dieing in North America. Liberal Christians are much less judgemental of other belief systems in general, and less inclined to succumb to the hysteria of the dark ages. When Fundamentalist Christians start following their God's commandments and stop spreading false witness about us, we will finally be able to practice outr faith in safety.

 

 

[LouisBooth]

"That's not even worthy of a reply. Is every person that ever believed in a single God a Christian? "

ah ah ah..no no, you can't use the they aren't a true witch card, you said so yourself so sorry havoc try again.

 

[Havoc]

No........ what I said, and please pay very close attention here, is that I don't use the "any witch who commits a crime is not a witch" card. There is a subtle difference. You cannot call someone a Witch who isn't a Witch just so you can pin stuff on them. African Shamans are not Witches. Satanists are not Witches. Australian Aboriginals are not Witches. To say that they are is as stupid as saying every monotheist is a Christian. Do we have that clear now or should we go over it again?

You said you had examples of Witches who murdered. You have not provided them. WE have plenty of historic examples of Christian atrocities.

 

[LouisBooth]

"You cannot call someone a Witch who isn't a Witch just so you can pin stuff on them"

Okay, prove to me that the majority of the people accused of being witches were not then.

 

[Annabel Lee]

Originally posted by LouisBooth


Okay, prove to me that the majority of the people accused of being witches were not then.

Louis, do you really believe that the people who were hung, burned at the stake and tortured to death, in the middle ages, were witches?
That they really cursed the "Good Christian Folk" and that they worshipped Satan?

 

[LouisBooth]

"That they really cursed the "Good Christian Folk" and that they worshipped Satan?"

Maybe so. I'm not sure, as far as I see now, it stands to reason they were. Now if the punishment was just is a totally different issue. From what I see there is evidience they were witches and used their "power" for evil, thus I'm asking havoc to show me otherwise in history.

 

[Havoc]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"You cannot call someone a Witch who isn't a Witch just so you can pin stuff on them"

Okay, prove to me that the majority of the people accused of being witches were not then.

Louis you really like to sidetrack when your caught but you're not very good at it. How about just coming up with the cases you alluded to and let us discuss them.

 

[MyJhongFist]

Louis,

Almost all historians, and even most Christians now denounce the Salem trials (along with the Spanish Inquisition) as a dark day in the history of Christianity. It is commonly agreed by a microcosm of historical sources that the trials themselves were incredibly biased and full of lunacy rather than actual religious or legal findings.

Just do a web search and you will find a huge source of information, all of which leads to the fact that the accusors were zealot fools, and the accused were nothing more than common people who were accused for nothing more than the presence of 'bad luck' in their presence.

19 people died, 1 was crushed to death for refusing to stand trial, and one 4 year old girl was even put into chains and imprisoned for being a witch.!!

The entire time was a ridiculous statement as to the fear of 'good Christian people' who, when faced with the absence of anyone to blame but themselves, proceeded to blame others for their misfortune and mis behavior.

Superstitious people are to blame for the Salem trials. Not witches. Some of the people who burned were probably good Christian folk, themselves. I, as a Christian, am ashamed of the Salem incident. Do some research and, if you have a conscience, you will feel the same.

 

[MyJhongFist]

The Salem witch hysteria occured in Salem, Massachusetts between 1692 to 1693. A total of 141 people were arrested, 19 were hanged and one was crushed to death.

The beginning of the problem can probably be traced to Rev. Samual Parris who before becoming a minister worked as a merchant in Barbados. Upon his return to Massachusetts he brought back two slaves. One of the slaves "Tituba" cared for his nine year old daughter "Elizabeth" called Betty and his 11 year old niece "Abigal". Tituba passed on stories to the girls about voodoo. The girls were fascinated with voodoo and soon started playing with it.  One of their methods was to float an egg white in a glass of water and predict their future husbands. For reasons that no one is sure the girls started having fits, making strange noises and contorting their bodies. It is hard to say, at the time, whether the girls believed they were possessed or whether the whole thing started as an act which got out of control. It was later admitted by Abigal, that the entire fiasco was an act, meant to deflect blame from themselves for playing with the devil's magic.  By that time, it was too late. Rev. Parris brought in Dr. William Griggs who could diagnos no medical condition for the girls so he diagnosed bewitchment. The 17th century Puritans believed in witchcraft as a cause of sickness and death.  The girls were then placed under enormous pressure to name names. Rather then admit to what started out as a game the girls were caught up in a wave of religious fanatiscm. The first accused were the slave Tituba, Sarah Good and Sarah Osborne. Warrants for their arrest were issued. All three appeared in the house of Nathaniel Ingersoll before Salem Town Magistates John Hawthorne and Jonathan Corwin. As each women stood to testify the girls fell into fits claiming the womans specter was biting them, pinching them and roaming the room appearing as a animal or bird. After being beaten earlier and under pressure the slave Tituba admitted to being a witch. It should also be noted that every admission of witchcraft was obtained by the use of torture or the promise of a painless death rather than a death by torture. Goode and Osborne were put in heavy iron chains, with Osborne dying there. An all out hunt began for more witches. The girls were placed under more pressure to name more witches. Ann Putman Jr. with the help of a vengeful mother named Martha Corey. Martha Corey was a member of the Salem Village congregation. Martha maintained her innocence in court but the girls fits of torment and anguish in court convinced the magistrates she was a witch. The next woman to be named was Rebecca Nurse. She was a church member and an outstanding member of the community. By now the magistrates and everyone else believed whatever the girls said. Ann Putman Sr. was Rebeccas accuser, apparently now she had joined the ranks of the afflicted. Following Rebecca Nurse was four year old Dorcas Good. Good, although only a child was sent to prison and placed in chains.


[/B]

 

That is the history of the supposedly evil people who were put to death in Salem.

 

Do some research Louis.  I thought it was common knowledge that the Salem trials were all bunk. 

 

[Calliope]

I chose bad as it is wrong for me personally, being a Christian. Nevertheless, everyone has their own freedom of choice as God gave us this freedom, and the responsibility that goes along with it.

 

[LouisBooth]

"How about just coming up with the cases you alluded to and let us discuss them."

okay, lets start with the people accused of witches in past times then.

"Abigal, that the entire fiasco was an act, meant to deflect blame from themselves for playing with the devil's magic. "

since MJF brought this up lets look at it. Here we have people using magic (I'd say witches) causing people to be killed by being decietful.

MJF, should they have been killed? No. Where some of them witches? Maybe so. that is what I'm asking. I do agree they were corersted into saying they were, but some might have been, some might not have been. That's what i"m asking Havoc to prove, that they didn't use their "powers" to hurt people.

 

[Havoc]

C'mon Louis.

In order to make this conversation even meaningful you have to.

1. show that some crime was actually committed

2. show that the persons accused actually did it

3. show that the persons accused were in any way Witches. No I'm not using the old Christian standby of "if they commit murder they can't be 'true' Christians rhetoric, I'm referring to were these people in any way worshipping the ancient Gods, casting spells, calling up energy, doing anything that would make them a Witch. A good example would be, could you call someone a Christian at all if they never prayed, never attended church, didn't believe in Christ, never heard of the bible, etc.

I know you like to dance around issues, especially when you've backed yourself into a corner, but lets stick to some semblance of logic here, OK?

 

[Outspoken]

"1. show that some crime was actually committed"

you are saying that of EVERY person in history accused of being a witch they were ALL wrong? Come on now, that's just a little too much of a coinscidience to me. Some of them had to be witches and some of them definitly did something to someone else in a "not so good" way, thus showing us an example of what you asked for, or are you saying that every person accused of anything in the history of the world was wrongly accused?

 

[MyJhongFist]

"you are saying that of EVERY person in history accused of being a witch they were ALL wrong? "

Not all, just most. The hysteria and fear displayed at the time were a disgrace. At the time, a person could be accused of witchcraft if any act of bad luck happened while they were around.

Supposedly good Christian people ran around in fear and accusing their friends and neighbors, all in the name of 'purging evil' from their presence.

In the process, they became what they most despised.

 

[Outspoken]

"Not all, just most"

Okay, so you agree some did then hurt, harm and otherwise kill people as a witch.

"In the process, they became what they most despised."

100% totally and fully agree!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Havoc]

1. During the "burning times" Witches did not, for all intents and purposes exist, the old religion having been stamped out centuries before by the Church.

2. The Crimes detailed in the Malleus Maleficarum and various Papal Bulls, ie black masses, desecration of the Host, worshipping Satan and summoning Demons, etc. are deviations of Christian themes, why would a Witch be interested in that sort of thing even if there were any left?

3. The harmful things they were accused of were things like causing sickness, drought, pestilences, sterile cattle. These thing were natural occurances, not caused by Witches or anyone.

So it is rather doubtful that any crime took place at all, other than the murders of innocent people at the hands of Christians. It is extrememly doubtful that any Witches even existed during that time.

In trying to represent the burning times as a legitimate expunging of Witchcraft you are not doing anything different than those who say the holocaust was a legitimate expunging of the Jewish threat from Europe.

In any case I believe the original intimation from Louis was that present day Witches are murderers. Despite his sidestepping and dancing I have yet to see anything to support that notion.

 

[Outspoken]

"Witches did not, for all intents and purposes exist, the old religion having been stamped out centuries before by the Church. "

REally? That is the first time I've heard that. So can you prove it?

"why would a Witch be interested in that sort of thing even if there were any left? "

Same reason why satanists call themselves that, shock value, or because they thought it was working to their advantage spiritually?

"These thing were natural occurances, not caused by Witches or anyone. "

But this is possible by "witchcraft". So again can you show me conclusivly that in your religion this NEVER happens? I would expect not everyone is so upstanding as you seem to be.

"In trying to represent the burning times as a legitimate expunging of Witchcraft you are not doing anything different than those who say the holocaust was a legitimate expunging of the Jewish threat from Europe.
"

No, but the fact that the jews did exsist is never under debate, nor that the nazis really killed them, nor that the nazi exsisted. I dont see your point here, can you make it clearer?

"In any case I believe the original intimation from Louis was that present day Witches are murderers."

I don't see that in the past posts, only that historically witches have killed or murdered as you said christians had in the PAST (key word) as well.

 

[MyJhongFist]

Originally posted by Outspoken
"Not all, just most"

Okay, so you agree some did then hurt, harm and otherwise kill people as a witch.

 

I agree with no such thing.  I only believe that some of the people executed were guilty of what was defined as witchcraft.  NOT that any of them actually harmed anyone.

Practicing herbal or natural medicine, midwifing, or divining the future were all considered evidence for witchcraft, and thereby death.  None of those things actually hurt or kill anyone, but were still enough to sentence their practitioners to a horrible death.

You should not be defending those actions.  Your attempt to defend the burning of innocent people and those of alternate religions, in reality, makes me sick.

 

[Outspoken]

"I only believe that some of the people executed were guilty of what was defined as witchcraft. NOT that any of them actually harmed anyone. "

Ahh, okay, thank you for clarifying your position.


So you think they were all wrongfully accused of harming people. Every witch in history?

"Your attempt to defend the burning of innocent people and those of alternate religions, in reality, makes me sick."

I did no such thing. I think their punishment was quite unjust. Please do not accuse me of something I have not done. thanks.