Why.

[Uphill Battle]

That is interesting and I had not heard that before.
I thought that they were already engaged to be married before she became pregnant.
Why would a teenage girl have been engaged to marry an 85 year old man?
Was that a common practice?
Actually, how common was it at that time for anyone to live to the age of 85?
Which sources give the ages of Mary and Joseph and how many different sources give them and do all of the different sources have the same ages?

It was exceedingly rare for 85 year olds to be still alive. not that it couldn't happen.

 

[E.C.]

What gives us the right to question their integrity as if they were common thugs?

Forgive me...

Simple: the people of modern day Palestine are largely of Arabic descent. Except for the Jews, of course.

Since most are of Arabic descent, than they all must be Muslims.

Heaven forbid that a significant minority in that population could just possibly be descendants of the first Christians in the region.

But since that idea isn't supported either in a black and white statement in the Bible or supported by a white American Evangelical it is heresy.

now you are talking about 2000 year old supposed history, and asking us to believe it on the testimony of those whom already do.

tell me then, shouldn't I believe Mormons about the history of Joseph Smith? (and no, I am not equating you with them... God Forbid.) do you understand what I mean?

The difference between us and the Mormons, in this case, is this: Joe Smith started his own game based off of something practiced for roughly 500 years which is based off of something practiced for roughly 1500 years before.
We are that which has been continuing for 2000 years.

I swear, people on this board are more likely to accept tribal African oral tradition than the history of those they actually have something in common with.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

simply this. And it is not "common thuggery" that is being proposed. We REGULARLY don't even get 100, 200, 300 year old history right. I mentioned Paul Revere. You have no idea how many people think that he actually made his ride all by himself, shouting bravely about the redcoats. Real history paints a different picture. But because somebody thought it would make good press, people BELIEVED that was what happened.

now you are talking about 2000 year old supposed history, and asking us to believe it on the testimony of those whom already do.

tell me then, shouldn't I believe Mormons about the history of Joseph Smith? (and no, I am not equating you with them... God Forbid.) do you understand what I mean?

Consider the difference here.

When you and I attempt to put a lock on history for the past two hundred years there is a problem past that.

"We" don't have one.

We are always looking at someone elses history and attempting to make sense of it.

Do you know your own personal history? Do you know where you come from? Do you know where your greatgrandparents are from?

Now how about the guy next door? Do you know where he's from? His greatgrandparents?

But he does, doesn't he.

We are talking about the history from a very specific group of historically identifiable peoples. And when they speak about their own history we alway ask... where did you read that?

The source speaks.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

St. Joseph was 110 when he died. Christ buried him, and wept bitterly the year before begining his ministry.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I ask WHY?

Lack of Trust in what is perceived as truely Miraculous.

We lack faith.

Forgive me...

 

[Uphill Battle]

Simple: the people of modern day Palestine are largely of Arabic descent. Except for the Jews, of course.

Since most are of Arabic descent, than they all must be Muslims.

Heaven forbid that a significant minority in that population could just possibly be descendants of the first Christians in the region.

But since that idea isn't supported either in a black and white statement in the Bible or supported by a white American Evangelical it is heresy.

I'm afraid I'm not grasping your point.

The difference between us and the Mormons, in this case, is this: Joe Smith started his own game based off of something practiced for roughly 500 years which is based off of something practiced for roughly 1500 years before.
We are that which has been continuing for 2000 years.

I swear, people on this board are more likely to accept tribal African oral tradition than the history of those they actually have something in common with.

from the perspective of someone who doesn't accept the claims, it's rather the same.

Consider the difference here.

When you and I attempt to put a lock on history for the past two hundred years there is a problem past that.

"We" don't have one.

We are always looking at someone elses history and attempting to make sense of it.

Do you know your own personal history? Do you know where you come from? Do you know where your greatgrandparents are from?

Now how about the guy next door? Do you know where he's from? His greatgrandparents?

But he does, doesn't he.

We are talking about the history from a very specific group of historically identifiable peoples. And when they speak about their own history we alway ask... where did you read that?

The source speaks.

Forgive me...

sorry, I'm not getting this either.

fact is, you have accepted what the Orthodox church has told you is their true and accurate history. That's fine. I'm sure they've gotten a great deal correct. I just cannot believe that they have gotten it all correct. Or even the vast majority of it. Truth begets rumor, rumor begets legend, legend becomes truth.

 

[Uphill Battle]

St. Joseph was 110 when he died. Christ buried him, and wept bitterly the year before begining his ministry.

Forgive me...

which, I suppose, has no source outside Orthodox history. correct?

 

[E.C.]

I ask WHY?

Lack of Trust in what is perceived as truely Miraculous.

We lack faith.

Forgive me...

Why was St. James killed by the Jews?

I know why. I wonder if our Protestant counterparts can figure out why...

Hint: the Twelve Apostles were originally very liturgical Jews.

 

[E.C.]

I'm afraid I'm not grasping your point.

My point, here?

Americans, as a whole, have a nasty habit of not only overly generalizing everything, but also not listening to someone tell their own history.

Example: we assume that all those of Arabic descent must all by Muslims. Not true. Most of the Christians in Palestine/Israel are of Arabic/Canaanite/Palestinian descent and Christians actually form a sizable minority within the overall Palestinian population.

Now, if some renowned American Evangelical started bringing to everyone's attention that there are indeed Palestinian Christians who have been living in the region and have been Christian since Pentecost, than maybe we would not see Arabic/Palestinian to always equate Muslim.

To go along with this example, we never ask anyone about their own history, but instead we tell them how wrong they are because of our overall super-inflated ego as well as sense of self-righteousness.

In short, America; as a culture, country and people; are like the world's pain in the neck teenagers.

 

[Uphill Battle]

My point, here?

Americans, as a whole, have a nasty habit of not only overly generalizing everything, but also not listening to someone tell their own history.

Example: we assume that all those of Arabic descent must all by Muslims. Not true. Most of the Christians in Palestine/Israel are of Arabic/Canaanite/Palestinian descent and Christians actually form a sizable minority within the overall Palestinian population.

Now, if some renowned American Evangelical started bringing to everyone's attention that there are indeed Palestinian Christians who have been living in the region and have been Christian since Pentecost, than maybe we would not see Arabic/Palestinian to always equate Muslim.

To go along with this example, we never ask anyone about their own history, but instead we tell them how wrong they are because of our overall super-inflated ego as well as sense of self-righteousness.

In short, America; as a culture, country and people; are like the world's pain in the neck teenagers.

good thing I'm Canadian.

 

[katherine2001]

Not to mention that there used to be many, many
Christians living in Jerusalem, who no longer live there, because they were kicked out by the Israelis, even though their families had lived in Jerusalem for centuries. More than a few Palestinian town and cities on the West Bank were 80-90% Christian. Many Evangelicals support their persecution by backing Israel no matter what they do.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I'm afraid I'm not grasping your point.


from the perspective of someone who doesn't accept the claims, it's rather the same.



sorry, I'm not getting this either.

fact is, you have accepted what the Orthodox church has told you is their true and accurate history. That's fine. I'm sure they've gotten a great deal correct. I just cannot believe that they have gotten it all correct. Or even the vast majority of it. Truth begets rumor, rumor begets legend, legend becomes truth.

Now consider one more aspect of it.

This Church (The Orthodox Church) is not a centralized entity.

They are all over the planet. All of them confirming each other story.

We are not force fed our beliefs. They do not come from a single source like the Vatican. They come from within us, and are confirmed by the entire Church body as being what has always been believed by all Christians everyhwere (see St. Vincent canon.)

I offer it again. It is a lack of faith in the fact that the truth has been protected by The Church.

If she (The Church of Antioch) is untrustable, then the gates of Hell have prevailed against her.

So which is it. Does she lie. Or does she maintain the unsubjective truth?

There is no middle ground.

Forgive me...

 

[E.C.]

good thing I'm Canadian.

Same difference, you're a Westerner. As am I.

Americans, Canadians, Brits, French and the West all think the same.

Some are just less subtle about it.

Sadly, very few try to change it and actually broaden their horizons rather than paying lip service in that regard.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I offer it again. It is a lack of faith in the fact that the truth has been protected by The Church.

If she (The Church of Antioch) is untrustable, then the gates of Hell have prevailed against her.

The RCC sings that same song.

 

[E.C.]

Not to mention that there used to be many, many
Christians living in Jerusalem, who no longer live there, because they were kicked out by the Israelis, even though their families had lived in Jerusalem for centuries. More than a few Palestinian town and cities on the West Bank were 80-90% Christian. Many Evangelicals support their persecution by backing Israel no matter what they do.

And some how we're the Judaizers.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

which, I suppose, has no source outside Orthodox history. correct?

I can't imagine who else to ask... How about the Egyptians... he lived there for a while.

I figure that if Jerusalem says so...
Antioch says the same.
Constantinople and Alexandria agree...

and

The Church of Rome too?

That's a whole lot of independant sources that have a history or not agreeing on much of anything... well agreeing!

Forgive me...

 

[E.C.]

The RCC sings that same song.

The Romans have not had to cope with Muslim occupation for 1400 consecutive years. Or horrible Communist persecution for seventy.

As well as other events.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The RCC sings that same song.

For good reason though.

Forgive me...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Romans have not had to cope with Muslim occupation for 1400 consecutive years. Or horrible Communist persecution for seventy.

As well as other events.

Well, JESUS never said it would be easy being a Christian.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 24:8 "All yet these beginning of trevails.
9 "Then they shall be delivering ye into tribulation and they shall be killing ye, and ye shall be being hated by all of the nations thru the Name of Me.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Well, JESUS never said it would be easy being a Christian.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 24:8 "All yet these beginning of trevails.
9 "Then they shall be delivering ye into tribulation and they shall be killing ye, and ye shall be being hated by all of the nations thru the Name of Me.

Indeed.

Forgive me...